JBerel Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) Yes, indeed, and maybe I'll close both threads. We really don't need this kind of hostility here. I think by and large there's been good exchange of information, a few noteworthy revelations, and some good natured fun. Then enters a new member every several weeks or more with no interest but to stir the pot on this topic only and push a thinly veiled agenda to support everything AtariSA does as if to provide a pro corporate counter narrative to the reality that is being beat to death by longer standing members. It's always been suspect, and really makes you wonder if there's a community management effort behind it, or if some direct company reps are participating of their own volition. Might be just a couple trouble makers posting under multiple accounts. Who knows? The point is we don't all agree on our assessment of this company, but most can have a civil debate.It's the ones that come in here with a pretty specific agenda that seem to cause the most ruckus. The mods do what they can, but those people are going to keep at it as long as Atari is pushing their campaign. Locking either thread just gives these folks exactly what they have been after from the start. These folks are using classic tactics to dilute and distract from conversations that run contrary to their agenda or corporate interests. If they have nothing else to contribute to this forum as a whole, that should be self evident. Edited July 9, 2018 by JBerel 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) Yes, indeed, and maybe I'll close both threads. We really don't need this kind of hostility here. I agree with the hostility. Maybe close both and reopen two more. One called: Ataribox: A home for cynics/critiques the other Ataribox: Information updates and home of the hopeful Edited July 9, 2018 by MrBeefy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 So a fantasy version, and a reality version, or a supporters and a haters version depending on viewpoint I suppose. How ya gonna keep everybody in their own topic, or keep them from changing their minds? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 So a fantasy version, and a reality version, or a supporters and a haters version depending on viewpoint I suppose. How ya gonna keep everybody in their own topic, or keep them from changing their minds? Beware all who enter. Don't enter taco land and get pissy you got salsa in the eye. If you can't say something positive or you can't give straight info if it is not good news don't enter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 That would create some serious echochambers. I say, let's hate in peace (?) and just try to get along. Reserve your Atari rAge for Atari SA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockduck Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 My hope with this thread was to be the informational thread, not cluttered with personal opinions and rants and off-topic discussion about food, but it's been tough as there are a few folks who can't let a VCS thread exist that doesn't include all sorts of personal attacks and frequent posts about their personal opinions about the current holder of the Atari license. My intention is that people continue that long-running conversation in the main taco thread, while we could use this to talk specs, news, and actual information as it develops in the coming year. Additionally, I want the OP to be a one-stop-shop of verified useful information for someone trying to learn what the VCS is (and isn't), and get up to speed on the subject. I'd love to see this thread stay open, but if people can't keep their nonsense to the thread meant for it, then I can understand a moderator wanting to close things down. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 My hope with this thread was to be the informational thread, not cluttered with personal opinions and rants and off-topic discussion about food, but it's been tough as there are a few folks who can't let a VCS thread exist that doesn't include all sorts of personal attacks and frequent posts about their personal opinions about the current holder of the Atari license. My intention is that people continue that long-running conversation in the main taco thread, while we could use this to talk specs, news, and actual information as it develops in the coming year. Additionally, I want the OP to be a one-stop-shop of verified useful information for someone trying to learn what the VCS is (and isn't), and get up to speed on the subject. I'd love to see this thread stay open, but if people can't keep their nonsense to the thread meant for it, then I can understand a moderator wanting to close things down. So other than Wyatt has there been any news lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 My hope with this thread was to be the informational thread, not cluttered with personal opinions and rants and off-topic discussion about food, but it's been tough as there are a few folks who can't let a VCS thread exist that doesn't include all sorts of personal attacks and frequent posts about their personal opinions about the current holder of the Atari license. I disagree with this whole premise (in bold). I can't recall if there were "frequent posts about their personal opinions" so i'll leave it out. Despite the victim mentality prevalent in recent posts, CPUWIZ specifically asked--and then warned--not to disrupt this thread. There may be some bleed-over, but I think generally speaking we've been respectful of that wish. AFAIK, no "haters" have been blocked here. Errors in judgment aside, it really isn't hard to not get thread-blocked on AA. Also, regardless of what's been said lately about "echo chambers", I think we try to engage with people in that thread even if we've heard it a dozen times before. For example, Nathan Strum recently made a wonderful, well-researched reply about Atari SA's less-than-stellar financials that belongs in any honest AtariVCS FAQ or debate. Naturally, it was completely ignored by the guy just a few posts down, but we can't force people to read things. We may disagree with some of your information and point it out (such as the joystick/paddle thing) but that doesn't automatically mean we're trolling. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojay1997 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 I disagree with this whole premise (in bold). I can't recall if there were "frequent posts about their personal opinions" so i'll leave it out. Despite the victim mentality prevalent in recent posts, CPUWIZ specifically asked--and then warned--not to disrupt this thread. There may be some bleed-over, but I think generally speaking we've been respectful of that wish. AFAIK, no "haters" have been blocked here. Errors in judgment aside, it really isn't hard to not get thread-blocked on AA. Also, regardless of what's been said lately about "echo chambers", I think we try to engage with people in that thread even if we've heard it a dozen times before. For example, Nathan Strum recently made a wonderful, well-researched reply about Atari SA's less-than-stellar financials that belongs in any honest AtariVCS FAQ or debate. Naturally, it was completely ignored by the guy just a few posts down, but we can't force people to read things. Naturally, we may disagree with some of your information and point it out (such as the joystick/paddle thing) but that doesn't automatically mean we're trolling. Agree with this strongly. I have no issue with a separate informational thread, but I would like to see it be run in a more open and balanced manner. For example, it might have been helpful to not only include the financials, but also some information about the refund policy or lack thereof once the campaign has ended. An information thread should include both the good and the bad so that people can make their own decisions about whether or not to back the campaign. As it is, the FAQ and general way the OP seems to want to run this thread is as more of a cheering section for the Atari VCS. If that's not the case, I would be curious to hear why things like the financials and the refund policy haven't been added to the OP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMaddog Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 You know, I come to this thread for information & facts (both good & bad) but there's too much toxicity from both sides now so I'm clicking the Ignore button this thread like I did the other one. And I will get a Linux based computer for streaming and emulation some day regardless if it has the Atari name or not. So long and good bye... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Healthy choice if you don't like what you're reading. On the other point, I gotta agree with PlaysWithWolves as well. I can't even remember all the relevant information that's been dug up in the other thread that backers and fans might still be ignorant to were it not for that thread; irregardless of the taco banter that fills the void between spurts of information. A few off the top of my head... -Atari revoked gameband license -Atari classic joystick first revealed via fake game play video -Atari financial reports showing clear inconsistencies between claims made by Atari on their campaign and to their shareholders -Atari modern joystick manufacturing dispute -Atari marketing company's (Rain Factory) past scams runs on similar campaigns. There are a lot more, If I cared to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 A few off the top of my head... -Atari revoked gameband license -Atari classic joystick first revealed via fake game play video -Atari financial reports showing clear inconsistencies between claims made by Atari on their campaign and to their shareholders -Atari modern joystick manufacturing dispute -Atari marketing company's (Rain Factory) past scams runs on similar campaigns. There are a lot more, If I cared to look. I do not see anything wrong with this thread not talking about some of the things like gameband or even some of these other ones. I think the ordering and refund policy should go in it though. Once you add those parts it goes from being a thread about what we know about the VCS system to a what we know about Atari SA and their BS poor choices or whatever. Honestly the taco thread should be done. If for no other reason to start a new thread critiquing Ataris decision in which many of these points are made. Then there is a centralized and organized thread that you can find something. Heck I tried searching for Curts post about the controllers to send someones way and all I kept running across were bs taco posts and couldnt find it. While there is some good information in it, it has done nothing but got people pissed off at each other. Close it. Start a new one that can reference the information so people can make an informed decision. If I was just coming into that thread it wouldnt help me one bit (because I cant find anything in 400 plus pages and my first thought would be is why are all these idiots talking about tacos and where is the information about the VCS? I dont really think everyone is an idiot for posting that and I have posted a few too. But the bottom line is do we want to continue the breeding ground for the toxicity? Or do we want to start fresh with the same concerns and do it in a way that comes across a little better? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 i understand about toxicity. watching real lifd drama unfold can be entertaining in its own right. when the cameleon fiasco was going on, i followed it with religious fervor, even as it was gaining in some cases 20 pages per day. i was even inducted as an honorary member of the hater brigator club. i was also unemployed then, so reading every post no matter how outrageous, was a non-issue. now im working full time, actually sleep at night, and missed a ton of updates in the other thread. i do have a horse in this race as a joystick backer. the taco related stuff was funny when it started but is getting long in the tooth. i hope the haters and the fans can just coexist and get along moving forward... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 My hope with this thread was to be the informational thread, not cluttered with personal opinions and rants and off-topic discussion about food, but it's been tough as there are a few folks who can't let a VCS thread exist that doesn't include all sorts of personal attacks and frequent posts about their personal opinions about the current holder of the Atari license. My intention is that people continue that long-running conversation in the main taco thread, while we could use this to talk specs, news, and actual information as it develops in the coming year. Additionally, I want the OP to be a one-stop-shop of verified useful information for someone trying to learn what the VCS is (and isn't), and get up to speed on the subject. I'd love to see this thread stay open, but if people can't keep their nonsense to the thread meant for it, then I can understand a moderator wanting to close things down. I think you chose the wrong medium for your message. If you don't want discussion, perhaps this shouldn't be on a discussion board? It would be better placed in a blog or wiki, with strict moderation about who adds what and when. Every AtariAge member has their own blog, perhaps that would be more suitable. "specs, news, and actual information as it develops" Well, specs are subject to change news is few and far between actual information kinda depends on where you sit, because of the demonstrated (un)trustworthiness of some of the sources You mentioned my Atari Flashback FAQ thread as an inspiration -- while I'm flattered, the circumstances are different. That was a commercially released product, already in people's hands, so there was no speculation, just verifiable facts. People had questions about how to do things on it, mostly loading ROMs. We shared information as it became available and could be verified by users. The most qualified people to make an AtariBox FAQ would be Atari themselves. I don't understand why they don't have one of their own. The fanbase has already given them three million dollars for a dream. The least they could do is communicate better about what they plan to do with it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Honestly the taco thread should be done. If for no other reason to start a new thread critiquing Ataris decision in which many of these points are made. Then there is a centralized and organized thread that you can find something. Heck I tried searching for Curts post about the controllers to send someones way and all I kept running across were bs taco posts and couldnt find it. Curt Vendel's quote, corroborated by The Historian. And here's where Vendel confirms Westchester Technologies is his account. The Historian was working with Feargal Mac Conuladh as an Atari-enthusiast volunteer at the time this happened. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBerel Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 I agree with Mr.Beefy about the taco noise. We can't complain about the instigators coming in to derail critical conversation or push info down the thread if everybody is also burying info under a heap of silliness . . . . .but, the moment a new thread is created, you'll have new members and familiar brand ambassadors pop up to fill it with all the great stock tips, quarterly debt figures and pie in the sky projects that AtariSA has up their sleeve. It's true that this is a discussion board, so the discussion should be allowed to continue. If some members can't follow the rules, they should be kicked from the thread as has been done. I honestly don't see the point in starting it all over again so the mods have to eventually lock the same people out of a discussion they're clearly trying to derail for questionable reasons. I'd suggest everyone could do a better job in keeping particular threads on topic. If there are genuine targeted and ongoing info updates to be provided, a user blog would seem to be appropriate, and you can link it in your sig so it's front and center throughout your contributions. Perhaps a proper admonishment/notification about further off-topic content being subject to removal, and repeated abuse subject to a thread ban. Anything else sure appears to be special interests trying to control the conversation. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) I think you chose the wrong medium for your message. If you don't want discussion, perhaps this shouldn't be on a discussion board? It would be better placed in a blog or wiki, with strict moderation about who adds what and when. Every AtariAge member has their own blog, perhaps that would be more suitable. "specs, news, and actual information as it develops" Well, specs are subject to change news is few and far between actual information kinda depends on where you sit, because of the demonstrated (un)trustworthiness of some of the sources You mentioned my Atari Flashback FAQ thread as an inspiration -- while I'm flattered, the circumstances are different. That was a commercially released product, already in people's hands, so there was no speculation, just verifiable facts. People had questions about how to do things on it, mostly loading ROMs. We shared information as it became available and could be verified by users. The most qualified people to make an AtariBox FAQ would be Atari themselves. I don't understand why they don't have one of their own. The fanbase has already given them three million dollars for a dream. The least they could do is communicate better about what they plan to do with it. I think the forum is a fine place for it. I would separate the FAQ info from speculation and wishes. It is a matter of staying on topic. Heck right now I am posting off topic. In this thread Edited July 9, 2018 by MrBeefy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) I agree with Mr.Beefy about the taco noise. We can't complain about the instigators coming in to derail critical conversation or push info down the thread if everybody is also burying info under a heap of silliness . . . . .but, the moment a new thread is created, you'll have new members and familiar brand ambassadors pop up to fill it with all the great stock tips, quarterly debt figures and pie in the sky projects that AtariSA has up their sleeve. It's true that this is a discussion board, so the discussion should be allowed to continue. If some members can't follow the rules, they should be kicked from the thread as has been done. I honestly don't see the point in starting it all over again so the mods have to eventually lock the same people out of a discussion they're clearly trying to derail for questionable reasons. I'd suggest everyone could do a better job in keeping particular threads on topic. If there are genuine targeted and ongoing info updates to be provided, a user blog would seem to be appropriate, and you can link it in your sig so it's front and center throughout your contributions. Perhaps a proper admonishment/notification about further off-topic content being subject to removal, and repeated abuse subject to a thread ban. Anything else sure appears to be special interests trying to control the conversation. The brand pusher can start his own thread on buying stocks. Keep it out of the new thread. Same thing can happen if tacos come up. Keep on topic or dont post. I usually am not all about strict moderation but I guess I can change or maybe with my recent bday im more crotchety Edited July 9, 2018 by MrBeefy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 I agree with Mr.Beefy about the taco noise. We can't complain about the instigators coming in to derail critical conversation or push info down the thread if everybody is also burying info under a heap of silliness Any further discussion about Taco related pics or jokes needs to be discussed here, in off topic where it belongs: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/272820-the-taco-thread/ I'm honestly surprised there is so much of it in here and the other thread, despite the official Taco thread only got 2 pages deep thus far. Are people really that interested in Tacos, or are they merely expressing their distaste for the subject by providing a distraction? Let's not, please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Any further discussion about Taco related pics or jokes needs to be discussed here, in off topic where it belongs: Good luck with that. How about this, instead. A new green college campus was built, but one thing was still debated: Where in the grass should we put the paved walkways? Some felt the walkways should be around the edges, to leave the center green and untouched. Some felt the walkways should cut diagonal, connecting all buildings to all buildings. One professor had the winning idea: Don’t make any walkways this year. At the end of the year, look at where the grass is worn away, showing us where the students are walking. Then just pave those paths. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 I suggest that if anyone has a beef with taco talk in the Ataribox thread, he should take his onions over there and lettuce get saucy. While I secretly (don't tell anyone) applaud that people on both sides managed to clutter up this thread with taco talk by saying we dislike taco talk--and to go to the "taco thread"--I think we probably shouldn't. YMMV. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockduck Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 I'm down for discussion, I am just hoping the more toxic stuff stays in the long-toxic thread. It makes a lot of sense to add refund (or lack thereof) information to the FAQ. I am mixed on corporate financials, nor past results (gameband), although I guess a case could be made for it. I did include the current funding total to give people a sense of money spent to back the project, under the thinking that would help inform people. I'll add a refund bit at least when time permits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Keeping discussion going makes sense. To that end, I promise I'll continue to steer my comments toward "helpful and constructive" as much as my little Grinch heart will permit. I think pointing out a few ways crowdfunding is different from a regular store order, like (I'm paraphrasing) "this is not a pre-order, you're helping the cause" and the limited 10-day refund period while in "In Demand" would distinguish this from being free advertisement for Atari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 "Helpful" comment: that link about Gamebox LLC from the Who FAQ section leads to some awful paywalled site. Maybe worth updating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 This seems like a really easy problem to solve, and it boils down to the following: Don't be a dick. Corollary to that: thicken your skin and respond rationally. State your position and give reasons why it's the one that you hold. Be respectful. See also: thicken your skin and respond rationally, because you're going to read opinions that might be contrary to your own once you put yours out there for all and sundry to evaluate. This process will repeat, so keep building up those epidermal layers as you channel Fonzie in your responses. Yep, this goes for everyone on the Atari SA love/hate spectrum. Problem solved. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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