New Intellivision console coming?

[1980gamer]

7 hours ago, Games For Your Intellivision said:

It has been decided that the Intellivision FPGA core will be an Intellivision 3 specced core. The core will be written to be the Intellivision 3 and we will ensure that it can run all existing Intellivision programs and cartridges. 

 

The console will have a cartridge port and run original cartridges, have some built in Intellivision games, a couple of enhanced (Intellivision 3) updated originals... (Think Utopia with better graphics) and able to run enhanced Intellivision 3 games on current existing cartridges such as the JLP and LTO Flash!

 

Please, no further comments about the Mister. It isn't what we are trying to do. We have no interest in using their hardware, nor glomming on some cartridge port to their hardware and our FPGA chipset is incompatible with the Mister, as far as I know, considering the hardware we have in mind. 

 

Further details to follow... 

 

 

Just curious, will this be TUTORvision compatible also?  I think that had 6 or 12 games?  Not that I am personally interested in them, just wondering.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

9 hours ago, 1980gamer said:

Just curious, will this be TUTORvision compatible also?  I think that had 6 or 12 games?  Not that I am personally interested in them, just wondering.

If someone wants to detail what makes a Tutorvision a Tutorvision, I could pass along the specs to the Intellivision FPGA core programmer. However, considering that this is a commercial product, I don't think that a lot of time can be spent implementing the Tutorvision. 

[mr_me]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13ApQEm1Xw_DcCAaXcQvpFot_BvrzSzeUo95EXCf41uc/pub

There's a few differences with how a Tutorvision works and displays.  The main thing for software is that it has more system ram and more gram.

 

Emulating the hardware isn't a big deal.  The problem is licensing the software, including the Tutorvision exec.  There's nobody to license it from and nobody is motivated to figure it out.

[+Lathe26]

Also, there are a handful of original games that don't work properly on the Tutorvision, such as the fun game Worm Whomper, because of the extra GRAM.  These games were sloppy about which GRAM address they wrote to (e.g., $3800 vs $3A00 vs $3C00 vs $3E00) and relied on the being mirrored in 4 places in the memory map.

 

If you implement Tutorvision compatibility, it should be a mode that is turned off by default and only turned on manually by the user.

[+DZ-Jay]

42 minutes ago, Lathe26 said:

Also, there are a handful of original games that don't work properly on the Tutorvision, such as the fun game Worm Whomper, because of the extra GRAM.  These games were sloppy about which GRAM address they wrote to (e.g., $3800 vs $3A00 vs $3C00 vs $3E00) and relied on the being mirrored in 4 places in the memory map.

 

If you implement Tutorvision compatibility, it should be a mode that is turned off by default and only turned on manually by the user.

Was it because they were sloppy, or was it because they overloaded what they presumed were (at the time) unused bits?

 

I know that my games do that, so they wouldn’t be compatible either.

 

    dZ.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

7 hours ago, mr_me said:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13ApQEm1Xw_DcCAaXcQvpFot_BvrzSzeUo95EXCf41uc/pub

There's a few differences with how a Tutorvision works and displays.  The main thing for software is that it has more system ram and more gram.

 

Emulating the hardware isn't a big deal.  The problem is licensing the software, including the Tutorvision exec.  There's nobody to license it from and nobody is motivated to figure it out.

I don't think licensing of the software is an issue. The user can load the games by himself/herself. 

[mr_me]

59 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

Was it because they were sloppy, or was it because they overloaded what they presumed were (at the time) unused bits?

 

I know that my games do that, so they wouldn’t be compatible either.

 

    dZ.

That's right, in a regular intellivision those bits are ignored by the stic.  In a tutorvision those bits become part of the gram address.  So if used to store data, it changes the intended address, screwing up background graphics.

Edited September 1, 2022 by mr_me

[+DZ-Jay]

42 minutes ago, mr_me said:

That's right, in a regular intellivision those bits are ignored by the stic.  In a tutorvision those bits become part of the gram address.  So if used to store data, it changes the intended address, screwing up background graphics.

 

Yes, I know.  I was asking if the reason those bits are set in some games is really because of sloppy programming (as suggested by @Lathe26), or because they were being used by the program with the assumption that the STIC would ignore them, i.e., not sloppy but clever programming.

 

    -dZ.

[JohnPCAE]

Any thoughts on adding extra opcodes, such as either the Locutus instruction set or the instruction set I have in the Advanced Console Component (which doesn't conflict with the Locutus instruction set)?

[+fdr4prez]

37 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

 

Yes, I know.  I was asking if the reason those bits are set in some games is really because of sloppy programming (as suggested by @Lathe26), or because they were being used by the program with the assumption that the STIC would ignore them, i.e., not sloppy but clever programming.

 

    -dZ.

Could be sloppy programming, or clever programming, or ignorance since they were supposed to have reverse engineered things themselves so they were unaware that they would be used by a different/unknown system.

[mr_me]

46 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

 

Yes, I know.  I was asking if the reason those bits are set in some games is really because of sloppy programming (as suggested by @Lathe26), or because they were being used by the program with the assumption that the STIC would ignore them, i.e., not sloppy but clever programming.

 

    -dZ.

Of the original 125 cartridges, I think only Worm Whomper is affected, and it uses background graphics in a unique way to animate enemies.  So I don't think sloppy programming.  The only other one I knew of was Space Patrol.

Edited September 1, 2022 by mr_me

[+DZ-Jay]

4 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Of the original 125 cartridges, I think only Worm Whomper is affected, and it uses background graphics in a unique way to animate enemies.  So I don't think sloppy programming.

I agree, and that sort of my drives my main point:  that there shouldn’t really be a general “patch” to support extended GRAM; some games would not work at all if those bits are overloaded to support extended GRAM addresses.

 

This was also brought up during a similar discussion when Joe Z. came up with a clever hack to support an expanded GRAM space on the original console.

 

    dZ.

[mr_me]

If you have expanded gram, there should be a switch to turn it off.  The INTV88 boards looks like there is a place for a jumper that was intended to be such a switch, but never implemented.

[1980gamer]

17 hours ago, Games For Your Intellivision said:

If someone wants to detail what makes a Tutorvision a Tutorvision, I could pass along the specs to the Intellivision FPGA core programmer. However, considering that this is a commercial product, I don't think that a lot of time can be spent implementing the Tutorvision. 

2 things.

First,  Based on any chance of game incompatibility, it is not worth adding Tutorvision support in my opinion.

next,  The EXEC may be only IE property, but it may be part World Book?  Not the actual games being licensed, those would certainly be property of both parties.  Note they did not part ways amicably.

 

Also, I am interested in this system getting off the ground, the Intellivision III fell victim to kitchen sink syndrome...  We don't need that, for your project.

 

 

[Games For Your Intellivision]

14 hours ago, 1980gamer said:

2 things.

First,  Based on any chance of game incompatibility, it is not worth adding Tutorvision support in my opinion.

next,  The EXEC may be only IE property, but it may be part World Book?  Not the actual games being licensed, those would certainly be property of both parties.  Note they did not part ways amicably.

 

Also, I am interested in this system getting off the ground, the Intellivision III fell victim to kitchen sink syndrome...  We don't need that, for your project.

 

 

I agree about the kitchen sink syndrome. The great thing about using an FPGA system, is that you can re-program them. So, once the basic system functions, if there's time other things can be added. 

 

Luckily, we have a situation where some things are already in place and this is not going to be a project that we have to build from the ground up. 

 

Regarding World Book IP....not worth even considering. At some point, you have to ignore some things and let whomever owns whatever make an objection if they have one. There was some concern regarding the music rights in Defender of the Crown when we were developing the Intellivision version. Can you imagine the comments if we had ripped out the music in DOTC and replaced it with something else just because we were worried about potential objections to us using it? I just assumed that the rights of the game included the music rights, and unless I was specifically told otherwise, I was not going to worry about it.  

[1980gamer]

@Games For Your Intellivision I am guessing this will be a complete console.

 

Any chance the board could/would fit into classic console shells?  That is, use your console as a replacement for my 1980 intellivision?

Of course with HDMI out!  So maybe some case alterations required.

 

Either way, looking forward to this!

 

If the Intellivision III specs will be implemented, it would be nice for you to work with the inty-basic devs. So that maybe it will be supported and at or shortly after release.

 

[Games For Your Intellivision]

22 hours ago, 1980gamer said:

@Games For Your Intellivision I am guessing this will be a complete console.

 

Any chance the board could/would fit into classic console shells?  That is, use your console as a replacement for my 1980 intellivision?

Of course with HDMI out!  So maybe some case alterations required.

 

Either way, looking forward to this!

 

If the Intellivision III specs will be implemented, it would be nice for you to work with the inty-basic devs. So that maybe it will be supported and at or shortly after release.

 

I'm sure someone could probably retrofit one of the boards into a classic console. Nothing at this moment has been decided. 

 

I don't see why Intellivison Basic cannot be modified to support the Intellivision III spec. I have at least one programmer lined up to create Intellivision III test roms to test the features of the Intellivision III. It's probably prudent to use Intellivision Basic to create them. When the time comes, we can probably take on more people. I will be able to talk about the project more once an agreement with another party is final. 

[1980gamer]

@Games For Your Intellivision Any progress you can report?

[Blake00]

This is wonderful news (especially considering the Amico disappointment). Shall be following this thread!

Edited November 4, 2022 by Blake00

[mdoerty]

This sounds interesting. Part of my interest in Amiico was the discussion of a USB cart reader or play original games. 
However, given the issues with hardware products coming out (from consoles to cartridges), this may take a while to be produced. 

[Flojomojo]

What an ambitious undertaking. Question: why not start by adding to a project that’s already out there? Analogue Pocket has a nice openFPGA core but it would be even better if there were a way to attach vintage or flashback Intellivision controllers to the dock via USB. 

https://github.com/spiritualized1997/openFPGA-Intellivision

[Walter Ives]

On 8/24/2022 at 4:25 AM, mr_me said:

Apparently Mattel did have GI build an updated STIC prototype.  It had higher resolution, four colour background cards and sprites, programmable 12-bit colour palettes, the eight sprites can be reused per scanline.  Specifications at the following link for anyone that hasn't seen it.

Nope. GI had no role in developing the graphics chip for the Intellivision III. It was APh that designed and built the "updated STIC prototypes," with production integrated circuits laid out by Toshiba.

The specification you link to is fantasy.

The following is abstracted from D. Johnson's "The Design and Development of the Mattel Intellivision."

APh had been advocating for upgrading the STIC chipset since first seeing its specifications in 1977. In 1981 Chandler's group began laying the groundwork for a new system codenamed DECADE. Maine and Harrower proposed a rather elegant design for a next generation graphics chip (AGILE, US Patent 4,700,181) which Chandler's group dismissed in favor of creating its own proprietary device (MAGIC). A lack of urgency and preoccupation with Keyboard Component issues starved the DECADE effort of attention and negligible progress was made. In August of 1982 APh was contacted by Mattel management and asked whether something could be done more quickly. APh presented a plan for a fully compatible upgrade a few days later. Chandler diverted one of his engineers to create the document you link to, which was a "Frankenstein improvement" on what APh had proposed. Although the document took only took a few weeks to prepare, it was overtaken by events: by the time it was finished and circulated APh was well along in implementing its system as proposed and pretty much ignored it. The actual Intellivision III design bears almost no resemblance to the system described in the "specification."

Although Chandler's group and APh were generally aware of each other's next generation projects and communicated with each other, they were each pre-occupied with their own work. APh was given carte blanche to design the Intellivision III graphics chip (designated STIC 1B), console logic board and an associated computer expansion unit. The same Toshiba crew that laid out the STIC 1A chip, which was eventually used by Valeski when his stash of GI chipsets ran out (it’s the graphics processor used on the INTV 88 circuit boards), began laying out STIC 1B in January 1983. Since the new design was an extension of the old, layout progressed very quickly. All hardware work was stopped in August 1983, shortly after Mack Morris was brought in to replace Denham. In 1988 Valeski talked to Toshiba about finalizing STIC 1B's layout but decided not to make the investment and let the Intellivision wither away instead.

 

On 9/1/2022 at 4:42 PM, 1980gamer said:

the Intellivision III fell victim to kitchen sink syndrome...

Poppycock. Denham and Prodromou were both committed to producing a lean-and-mean follow-up console that could aggressively compete on price, continuing of the cost-reduction philosophy they had adopted for Intellivision II. The 5-volt only CP1610A CPU GI had already designed for Intellivision II could already run at double speed without overheating. Mattel had parts of that in hand by June 1983 and Valeski later used it in his INTV88 boards. The STIC 1b chip which Toshiba was busy laying out was an extension of the STIC 1a chip Toshiba had just finished. No other custom silicon parts were required. The plastic housing was an adaptation of the Intellivision II housing.

The console's other key new features were controller improvements, a communications link and composite video out. Any other kitchen sink stuff was relegated either to a separate computer module, where marketing could crow about it to its heart's content, or to future years.

The brochure printed for the Winter 1983 Consumer Electronics Show contained the typical marketing mix of truth and fiction. Nothing in that brochure presented a challenge. Even so, voice synthesis was never planned to be included. The voice synthesis line, on store shelves only a few months, had proved itself such an utter market fiasco over the just completed Christmas season that there was no chance it would worm its way into the design.

What the Intellivision III actually fell victim to was Mattel Electronics' new management's decision to exit the hardware business. It was going full bore until August, and was actually one of the last hardware projects to be killed. It even outlived DECADE by a few weeks, mostly because the new management had its hands full and took a little while to get around to it.

[mr_me]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:19 AM, Walter Ives said:

Nope. ....

While the specification described some items as a goal what was implemented in Stic1b?

 

The original Stic could have done the full 192 lines of graphics with more ram, so was 20x24 tile graphics part of Stic1b?  What about 40x24 alphanumerics?

 

How about reusing the eight sprites per scanline?  Or three colours per sprite/tile? Sixteen pixel wide sprites and tiles in one colour, 320 pixels per line? Or the sixteen colour palette being programmable?

 

What is "The Design and Development of the Mattel Intellivision" by D. Johnson?  Is it a recent document?

[+DZ-Jay]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

While the specification described some items as a goal what was implemented in Stic1b?

 

The original Stic could have done the full 192 lines of graphics with more ram, so was 20x24 tile graphics part of Stic1b?  What about 40x24 alphanumerics?

 

How about reusing the eight sprites per scanline?  Or three colours per sprite/tile? Sixteen pixel wide sprites and tiles in one colour, 320 pixels per line? Or the sixteen colour palette being programmable?

 

What is "The Design and Development of the Mattel Intellivision" by D. Johnson?  Is it a recent document?

I think I found D. Johnson, a best selling author:

https://www.thetalesofadiamond.com
 

 

[poconojo]

I would definitely buy a new Intellivision console.