Why did the TRS-80 lose it's throne so quickly?

[Keatah]

TRS-80 Model 1, part of the Trinity, was the number one seller in its day. Exceeding both Apple II and Commodore PET. Yet, a few short years later it fell into obscurity while Apple II continued into the early 1990's.

 

Was it some sort of software policy Tandy upheld? Was it a shortcoming of the architecture? Marketing? Hampered expansion capabilities? Was the machine simply not experimented around and messed with like Apple II? Or perhaps some other reason I'm not thinking of at the moment?

 

[mr_me]

In the 1980s, Commodore pricing ruined the consumer market for everyone.  Apple survived because they were in the educational market.

[youxia]

55 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Commodore pricing ruined the consumer market for everyone.

Apart from the actual consumer.

[fiddlepaddle]

I bought one of the first TRS80s; placed my order at Radio Shack as soon as they would take it, and had it delivered about 3 weeks later. Spent the summer writing game programs. Seemed like a very exciting time to me. I remember seeing ideas proposed in the magazines and a few weeks later seeing code to make it happen. One example was using the cassette port output to generate sounds for a game (can't remember the details, but something about putting a radio next to it and hearing the radio interference). I remember reading that the TRS80 had reached the amazing estimate of 100,000 sold... There was no stopping it!

[jhd]

 

The lack of (visible) third-party support probably contributed to the demise of the TRS-80. Such support existed, but it was relegated to mail-order and serious effort was required to find the vendors. 

 

Personally, it was almost a year before I discovered that anyone other than Radio Shack supported the system -- and unlike Commodore (or, to a lesser extant, Apple), I could not purchase this third-party software or hardware at retail. (As a young teenager without a chequing account, much less a credit card, retail was the only reasonable way for me to purchase anything.)

 

Commodore software was ubiquitous at major department stores. There was at least one independent Apple retailer in the city. 

 

[Hwlngmad]

19 hours ago, Keatah said:

TRS-80 Model 1, part of the Trinity, was the number one seller in its day. Exceeding both Apple II and Commodore PET. Yet, a few short years later it fell into obscurity while Apple II continued into the early 1990's.

 

Was it some sort of software policy Tandy upheld? Was it a shortcoming of the architecture? Marketing? Hampered expansion capabilities? Was the machine simply not experimented around and messed with like Apple II? Or perhaps some other reason I'm not thinking of at the moment?

 

Well, the answer is a bit multi-faceted.  One reason is software.  Despite using the Z-80, Tandy wanted to have a stranglehold over all aspects of the computer from hardware to software a la modern day Apple.  However, that really hurt them as they didn't get any name recognized software until usually everyone else had had it, if at all.  Also, pricing was another factor.  Tandy machines were good computers, but they were not cheap and also didn't have color.  Granted, the TRS-80 Color Computer did, but that was a different machine with different architecture.  Additionally, while the computers had a built in sales and distribution network, Tandy/Radio Shack didn't really sell, or 'evangelize', the machine to the extent as a lot of other companies did.  Finally, the final reason is increased competition.  Lots of others entered the fray and/or debuted much better hardware with a lot better software.  I really hope that I finally get motivated enough to finally put all that I have learned and researched into a book that can (at least from a macro level) explain how things shook out they way they did as the home / small business market was for the taking between 1975 to 1985.  However, once the IBM PC clones started coming, there was no stopping that train.

[Hwlngmad]

19 hours ago, Keatah said:

TRS-80 Model 1, part of the Trinity, was the number one seller in its day. Exceeding both Apple II and Commodore PET. Yet, a few short years later it fell into obscurity while Apple II continued into the early 1990's.

 

Was it some sort of software policy Tandy upheld? Was it a shortcoming of the architecture? Marketing? Hampered expansion capabilities? Was the machine simply not experimented around and messed with like Apple II? Or perhaps some other reason I'm not thinking of at the moment?

 

BTW, check out this book (link to Priming the Pump: How TRS-80 Enthusiasts Helped Spark the PC Revolution below) for the success and/or failures of the TRS-80 line of computers from people involved in making and distributing programs for the machine.

https://www.amazon.com/Priming-Pump-TRS-80-Enthusiasts-Revolution/dp/0979346800/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=priming+the+pump&qid=1663010616&sprefix=priming+the+p%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-2

[Keatah]

18 hours ago, fiddlepaddle said:

One example was using the cassette port output to generate sounds for a game (can't remember the details, but something about putting a radio next to it and hearing the radio interference).

Ha! I did that with my Apple II, and eventually started practicing voodoo on it. Stuck pins in various sockets and connected the single wire to a small amplifier. Got all kinds of weird grinding digital noise. Eventually I had to replace some sockets as the contacts weren't as springy as I thought - they were permanently bent and didn't make contact anymore.

[zzip]

Radio Shack was the first place I saw home computers, but by the time I got i got a computer and started following the industry,  the TRS-80 (any model) were barely getting coverage in the magazines I was reading, presumably because they weren't being supported by 3rd parties (apart from maybe someone like Infocom that supported everything),   By then it was like "oh yeah, I almost forgot, Radio Shack sells computers too".     So I would say lack of software was a problem, but that usually follows from lack of marketing.

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

Despite using the Z-80, Tandy wanted to have a stranglehold over all aspects of the computer from hardware to software a la modern day Apple. 

Yes I remember hearing that.

 

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

Tandy machines were good computers, but they were not cheap and also didn't have color.  Granted, the TRS-80 Color Computer did, but that was a different machine with different architecture.

This was a reason why my grandparents didn't support me getting TRS-80. They said I'd be bored with it, no color games. And that was seemingly the only point of contention.

 

They had no problems with me getting A2. Slipped some extra funds my way from time to time too. And helped me sneak into the CES a few times. And so Apple got my $$$ and not RadioShack. Though I did spend tons there for electronics parts and kits and stuff.

 

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

Additionally, while the computers had a built in sales and distribution network, Tandy/Radio Shack didn't really sell, or 'evangelize', the machine to the extent as a lot of other companies did.

One store was 10 minutes away by BMX tops! Passing by was easily a daily occurrence. The two computer centers though required the car. But just having such places was quite the thrill! It was great strolling into one of those. The atmosphere was immediately cooler and quieter, no hustle, no bustle, totally different from cacophony of the typical store. A relief from the mall crowd!

 

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

Finally, the final reason is increased competition.  Lots of others entered the fray and/or debuted much better hardware with a lot better software.

When following the TRS-80 lineup I always wondered when color graphics would arrive. They did with CoCo, but that was not compatible with anything Model I/III unfortunately. I instantly said to myself I don't have time for yet another platform.

 

Then there were all the school kids with Apples and Commodores and Ataris. Big influence on what machines made the rounds in town.

 

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

I really hope that I finally get motivated enough to finally put all that I have learned and researched into a book that can (at least from a macro level) explain how things shook out they way they did as the home / small business market was for the taking between 1975 to 1985.

That could be interesting.

 

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

  However, once the IBM PC clones started coming, there was no stopping that train.

Indeed.

 

Overall I was mostly happy with the vintage computing path I picked, Apple 2 and later the PC, for keepers. All in the interim having gotten to play with the other platforms, and even own them briefly, C64, Atari 400/800, Ti-99/4a, CoCo 1, TS-1000.

[Keatah]

55 minutes ago, zzip said:

Radio Shack was the first place I saw home computers,

Olson Electronics was where I first saw a PET system, aside from the terminals/mainframes at airports and business offices. Otherwise anything electronic hooked to a CRT was "Pong" and "Tank". As a kid I had zero concept of what I was looking at back then. But in a year or two that would totally change.

 

55 minutes ago, zzip said:

but by the time I got i got a computer and started following the industry,  the TRS-80 (any model) were barely getting coverage in the magazines I was reading, presumably because they weren't being supported by 3rd parties (apart from maybe someone like Infocom that supported everything),   By then it was like "oh yeah, I almost forgot, Radio Shack sells computers too".     So I would say lack of software was a problem, but that usually follows from lack of marketing.

Not sure when I lost interest in even casually following the TRS-80 through books, magazines, or the occasional look inside the store. May have been just prior to the Amiga/ST era.

[R.Cade]

While initially the TRS-80 was made for home/hobbyists, it became apparent with all subsequent models that they would rather target the business market with that line instead, and released the CoCo for the home market.

 

The CoCo, while much more powerful, was not compatible in any way, shape, or form. This was probably confusing to the customer base.  Also, you could get a VIC-20 or later a C64 instead for much cheaper at K-Mart pretty soon after that, so it fizzled.

 

However, I am surprised how often I run into older CoCo's in the wild, as well as IT folks and software developers that used them. I think there were a lot out there in the market. It was just not something kids got- they had Commodore instead.

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by R.Cade

[doctorclu]

5 hours ago, Keatah said:

This was a reason why my grandparents didn't support me getting TRS-80. They said I'd be bored with it, no color games. And that was seemingly the only point of contention.

 

Your grandparents were wise.  The Tandy might have been a capable computer, but it had nothing really in graphics and games.  I remember playing a lot of text adventures at a friend's house.   I remember on the model 4 we played a game where you drive a solar powered car in a race.  And MAYBE there was a version of Spy Hunter?

 

But it was no Atari.

[TheDevil'sCompass]

At least among my fellow students (who influenced what our parents bought), most of us didn't really give it a chance because of the name. We all called that line of computers "Trash-80". I always thought the TRS-80 name was a huge marketing blunder. 

[youxia]

That "marketing blunder" somehow didn't stop it becoming a bestseller, probably because real enthusiasts did not really care about something so trivial. I'm pretty sure if I was in the States back then and had some spending power (instead being a 7 y.o.behind the Iron Curtain) I'd be getting exactly the TRS. It was "people's computer", just like ZX Spectrum. Sure, Apple II might'd been a fancier proposition but it was also vastly more expensive. The lack of colour really wasn't as big a deal at the time as it might seem now, seein as me and many others spent had B&W TVs and monitors as the only option anyway, and yet were only top happy to be able to have a compute at all. And there were heaps of good games on the TRS, especially in my favourite RPG/strategy/adventure genres, but also arcade ones.

 

TRS eventually faded away because the Coco models were rather unimpressive and couldn't compete with the C64 in the US or other options, like ZX, MSX, CPC and Atari, elsewhere. And the PC clones slowly chipped away at the business side of sales.

Edited September 13, 2022 by youxia

[zzip]

15 hours ago, Keatah said:

Olson Electronics was where I first saw a PET system, aside from the terminals/mainframes at airports and business offices. Otherwise anything electronic hooked to a CRT was "Pong" and "Tank". As a kid I had zero concept of what I was looking at back then. But in a year or two that would totally change.

I remember my reaction as a kid was "wow, you can type things and it appears on the screen?!?".   Seems completely trivial now, but at the time it was totally novel.   We didn't even have a typewriter.   I wanted one even though I had absolutely no idea what I'd use it for.     Never got one, but at that age that wasn't a bad thing.

 

 

[Arnuphis]

I remember seeing the TRS-80 model III in my local Tandy store (UK) and I really wanted one. It looked like a real computer. But the price was too high and then Commodore and Sinclair hit the market with less expensive machines with colour graphics and sound and every parent bought those for the kids. The only Tandy-ish machine that got popular was the Dragon 32 and obviously that was based on the CoCo.

 

It's great to finally get my hands on one though. They are great machines.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Arnuphis

[+save2600]

 

...for $8-$9k, comes with some furniture! 🤪
 

 

...this could be the system of your dreams! 🤣

[+save2600]

The Model III was the first machine I ever used as our Junior H.S. had a lab full of 'em. Learned how to type, output to a printer and program BASIC on that machine. Never felt compelled to want a Tandy at home (including the CoCo) though, even if they had been more affordable. A couple of short years later, the TI-99/4A was *the* machine for me and that's what I went with as my first home computer. 😀

[Keatah]

For a while I really really wanted a TI-99/4A. I remember it being set up in a Compu-Shop and having one of the cleanest, most clutter-free display desks (CS used cubicle desks to show their wares). 
 

Just had a color-coordinated monitor and some cartridges and literature. 
 

Had soundproofing panels wall to wall!

[Krebizfan]

EACA had a variety of TRS-80 Model I clones sold under the Video Genie (and other) labels plus a semi-compatible version extended to support color in the Colour Genie. EACA spectacular method of going out of business prevented the Video Genie from being a major player in the lower end business market outside the US. 

 

Tandy seemed to have shifted the focus with the III and 4 to selling extra systems at high margins to those that already using the TRS-80 Model line. Profitable but rather caps the total sales volume. 

[Hwlngmad]

23 hours ago, zzip said:

So I would say lack of software was a problem, but that usually follows from lack of marketing.

It most definitely was a problem.  Granted, there was fun to be had from the TRS-80 line of computers gaming wise.  However, compared to what the A2, VIC-20, A8, and others could do and/or had, it just wasn't in the same ballpark imo.

[Hwlngmad]

10 minutes ago, Keatah said:

For a while I really really wanted a TI-99/4A. I remember it being set up in a Compu-Shop and having one of the cleanest, most clutter-free display desks (CS used cubicle desks to show their wares).

Technically the TI-99/4A was my families first home computer.  However, while I able to play games, my parents (and therefore myself) didn't know a lick about computer programming, BASIC, etc.  So, our first computer everyone actually used was an IBM PC in Dec. 1992.

[+save2600]

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

Technically the TI-99/4A was my families first home computer.  However, while I able to play games, my parents (and therefore myself) didn't know a lick about computer programming, BASIC, etc.  So, our first computer everyone actually used was an IBM PC in Dec. 1992.

Probably explains why I've seen more than a handful of "new" TI computers throughout the years/decades. A lot of families bought the thing when it was just $50-$100 on clearance. Used it for a short while - or not, then placed back in the box. 🙃🙁

[Cebus Capucinis]

Why would anyone buy something just to leave it in a box or open it just to put it back in? Seems utterly moronic to me....