Why did the TRS-80 lose it's throne so quickly?

[Bill Loguidice]

I'd say the big advantage for the TRS-80 Model I was being in every Radio Shack. To me, that's something that can't be overlooked for it being the best seller into the very early part of the 80s when computers were primarily found only in dedicated computer stores in larger areas. It was also less expensive than the Apple II. With that said, although the TRS-80 and PET were sold as complete systems versus the Apple II, the Apple II had color graphics and sound, relatively primitive or not. It was also the darling of the early computer magazines, with considerable (and arguably, disproportionate, at least early on) attention and focus on the platform versus the other two (and other computers of the day). I suspect this was a combination of its relatively advanced capabilities, expandability, and the fact that its owners tended to be more affluent (which had advantages from those producing the content, advertising revenue, etc.).

 

Of course, for its time, the Apple II, while a mostly turnkey system, was also almost completely open, which added to the benefits described above. The same types of documentation/materials weren't necessarily found on the other platforms, nor the same sense of "exploration" and come one, come all software development, which also further led to disproportionate coverage, which built on itself, etc. I'd also argue that Apple had relatively smart, albeit modest, platform upgrades from the II, II+, IIe, etc., that not only attracted new owners, but kept existing owners with the platform through the end of the decade. The PET and TRS-80 line, despite producing some beautiful machines in the series (and some of my personal favorites), remained more constrained by the limitations of their original designs, with the PET being a complete non-factor by the early 80s and the TRS-80 ending its long lifespan in 1991 (only a handful of years before the Apple II's own end) as little more than a legacy small business machine. 

[Hwlngmad]

18 hours ago, save2600 said:

Probably explains why I've seen more than a handful of "new" TI computers throughout the years/decades. A lot of families bought the thing when it was just $50-$100 on clearance. Used it for a short while - or not, then placed back in the box. 🙃🙁

Yeah, quite possibly so.  I am sure that is how my father / parents got the TI99/4a with so much software along with it.  Probably was a fire sale and considering that this was a bit after my father had started using computers at his work I am sure he and/or my mother decided to take a flyer on it.  Hey, it did provide some entertainment.  Don't know where that computer went, though.  But, it was the revised / beige version, so not the best looking one.

[Hwlngmad]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I'd say the big advantage for the TRS-80 Model I was being in every Radio Shack. To me, that's something that can't be overlooked for it being the best seller into the very early part of the 80s when computers were primarily found only in dedicated computer stores in larger areas. It was also less expensive than the Apple II. With that said, although the TRS-80 and PET were sold as complete systems versus the Apple II, the Apple II had color graphics and sound, relatively primitive or not. It was also the darling of the early computer magazines, with considerable (and arguably, disproportionate, at least early on) attention and focus on the platform versus the other two (and other computers of the day). I suspect this was a combination of its relatively advanced capabilities, expandability, and the fact that its owners tended to be more affluent (which had advantages from those producing the content, advertising revenue, etc.).

 

Of course, for its time, the Apple II, while a mostly turnkey system, was also almost completely open, which added to the benefits described above. The same types of documentation/materials weren't necessarily found on the other platforms, nor the same sense of "exploration" and come one, come all software development, which also further led to disproportionate coverage, which built on itself, etc. I'd also argue that Apple had relatively smart, albeit modest, platform upgrades from the II, II+, IIe, etc., that not only attracted new owners, but kept existing owners with the platform through the end of the decade. The PET and TRS-80 line, despite producing some beautiful machines in the series (and some of my personal favorites), remained more constrained by the limitations of their original designs, with the PET being a complete non-factor by the early 80s and the TRS-80 ending its long lifespan in 1991 (only a handful of years before the Apple II's own end) as little more than a legacy small business machine. 

Spot on Bill.  Don't know if anyone could say it better than this imo.

[+batari]

From my own experience, I would have to say it was due to the price and the poor graphics capabilities of the TRS-80. I first saw a TRS-80 in 1980, and of course wanted one badly but they were too expensive, which turned out to be a good thing because by 1981, there were far cheaper computers on the market and many of them had superior graphics. If I had gotten a TRS-80 then, I most likely would not have been able to get a VIC-20 a year later which I felt was a better choice.

[TheDevil'sCompass]

I grew up in a relatively small community of about 40K. We had one Radio Shack which was in one of the smaller spaces in the mall. None of the surrounding communities even had a Radio Shack. They'd have to drive up to 30-40 minutes to the nearest one. From my experience, having the TRS-80 in Radio Shack was both an advantage and a disadvantage. The TRS-80's on display were always in the middle of the store, near the sales counter. If you didn't have a reason to be in the store, you could easily overlook the computers as you were walking by. If you looked like you could afford it, the salesman would allow you to sit down at the keyboard. Occasionally, kids would stand around and watch the salesman show the computer off to potential customers. Our store targeted businesses for sales. They never presented the Model 1 as a home computer. Once the color computer was released, they relaxed their sales tactics a bit. The only place I ever saw a Model 1 outside of the store was in an insurance salesman's office who happened to be a friend of my dad. Software for the TRS-80 was also only available through Radio Shack. Being a small store, they didn't carry too much but I'm sure they'd order anything you requested. 

[Frozone212]

B&W graphics that weren't true hi res

crap sound

tandy tried to force customers to use a crappy OS and then suckered them with the Model III and 4P

The initial machine was 4k, 16k didn't arrive till after release

 

Even if you bought the keyboard and tv set, it wasn't FCC assured which led to a lot of returns.

that's all i know

[+SpiceWare]

Their employees didn't help:

 

Quote

 

There was another factor in my decision - I hadn't yet heard about the VIC 20 and was originally going to get a CoCo. I spent the summer of 81 working at my grandparents to raise half the money for it (my parents were paying for the half for Xmas). We happened to be in the neighboring town and went into Radio Shack as grandma wanted to see this newfangled thing I was saving for. The CoCo was turned off and when I asked the guy working there if he could turn it on he said "I can't, there's a password that has to be typed in exactly or it will ruin the computer, and I don't know the password". I knew he was lying as by that point I'd already been using Commodore PETs for a year at my high school. I had considered the Atari 400, but I didn't have enough money and I really didn't like the membrane keyboard.

 

[mr_me]

23 hours ago, Frozone212 said:

B&W graphics that weren't true hi res

crap sound

tandy tried to force customers to use a crappy OS and then suckered them with the Model III and 4P

The initial machine was 4k, 16k didn't arrive till after release

 

Even if you bought the keyboard and tv set, it wasn't FCC assured which led to a lot of returns.

that's all i know

The TRS-80 did really well in the 1970s with a wide lead in market share, thanks to the Radio Shack store network.  And they were the number one personal computer in sales up until 1981 when Atari took over, and then Commodore in 1982/83 with the Vic 20 and C-64.  Atari and Commodore were both in major department stores at that time.

 

Tandy was still outselling Apple up until 1983 when the Apple IIe came out.  In the early 1980s Tandy had various new TRS-80 systems, the model II for business, Coco for home and then in 1983 they started moving towards IBM PC compatibles.

Edited September 26, 2022 by mr_me

[almightytodd]

I believe Apple's ultimate triumph in the 8-bit market was due to their aggressive marketing (and heavy discounting) to K-12 schools. My supporting evidence is mostly anecdotal, however. 

 

 

[fiddlepaddle]

Throughout the 1980's, Apple, much more than other microcomputer manufacturers, was known for pushing it's computers into schools and other tech-hungry early adopters hoping/expecting it would likely influence future developers. Conversely, Radio Shack seemed to take the opposite approach and tried to control all peripheral and software distribution for its computers so it could milk every penny possible from it's most well-heeled customers.

[Keatah]

As a blissfully unaware child back then (when Apple II was new on the market) I was at first interested in TRS-80 Model I. My grandparents steered me away from it because it had no color graphics. I guess they took note of how well I liked the VCS.

 

Once that was pointed out to me in no uncertain terms I warmed up to the A2 rather quickly. Liked the case styling, the HUGE 87-chip motherboard, built-in sound and color graphics that would work on a TV set. And a little bit of elitism because it was a rich kid's computer. The one to have.

 

I knew nothing of market pressures. Or Apple educational deals. Or the control that Tandy tried exerting over software. I would even feel "cheap" because there was non-apple-branded (3rd party) software available. So second rate publishers were making stuff. Not the expensive-looking luster of TRS-80 software.

 

But I did know that any proper computer, like S-100 rigs, had expansion slots. And circuit boards to plug into them. Like cartridges on steroids or something. I totally understood that they would be key to longevity. And TRS-80 didn't have them.

 

I didn't know anything about each machine's underlying architecture. I didn't know anything about BASIC or DOS. Just a little bit about ROM and RAM, one you could only read from, and one you could read and write from. And that more "K" was better. Heady stuff back then!

Edited October 2, 2022 by Keatah

[JamesD]

Apple II overtook the TRS-80 after
The intro of the II+.  Floating point Microsoft BASIC was now built in as was floppy autoboot.
Once the original flaws in the machine went away, color, and sound suddenly became more attractive.  Especially since there were finally games to show it off.
People were migrating to floppy drives and more RAM.  With the TRS-80 you needed the expansion interface and it was fiddly at times.
The intro of Visicalc.  It was only on the Apple II at first, and the intro of 80 column cards helped. 
Along with the language card, and later 3rd party RAM cards + patches for Visicalc, the Apple was the machine to run it on.
Upgrading the Apple was much easier than the TRS-80 too.  3rd party cards were common.

[Keatah]

 

4 hours ago, JamesD said:

Once the original flaws in the machine went away, color, and sound suddenly became more attractive.  Especially since there were finally games to show it off.

Never viewed the lack of Autostart ROM and 80-Columns as flaws. From an infantile child's mind and a retrospective adult's perspective, they just seemed like progressive technological developments.

 

4 hours ago, JamesD said:

With the TRS-80 you needed the expansion interface and it was fiddly at times.

Even back then I heard about and completely understood the wonkiness of the TRS-80's expansion box's connectors. Just not for me. Thankfully grandparents (who knew less than nothing about microcomputers) steered me away from TRS-80.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Keatah

[JamesD]

20 hours ago, Keatah said:

 

Never viewed the lack of Autostart ROM and 80-Columns as flaws. From an infantile child's mind and a retrospective adult's perspective, they just seemed like progressive technological developments.

 

Even back then I heard about and completely understood the wonkiness of the TRS-80's expansion box's connectors. Just not for me. Thankfully grandparents (who knew less than nothing about microcomputers) steered me away from TRS-80.

If you had to use an original Apple II, you'd understand the autostart issue.  Wasn't talking 80 columns, was talking autostart and integer BASIC

I took an eraser to the connectors on a school Model I computer more than a few times when I was in high school.

[Keatah]

6 <ctrl+P> was a mantra. Practically part of a nursery rhyme.

[Bruce Tomlin]

I never had problems with my E/I and didn't have the buffered cable either. Maybe they had already added buffers inside the E/I by then. I did have one weird problem, though. I mail-ordered 32K of RAM chips, and the memory looked like a random number generator when I viewed it with the DOS debugger. I had to turn the E/I 5V regulator down to like 4.5V before the RAM settled down and operated properly. (And then I later ended up with more weird memory for the CoCo, 64K DRAM chips that still needed +12V.)

[mutterminder]

I'll just add that at the time, I felt that initially, the main problem was that Radio Shack seemed to discourage third party developers.  There was a lot of third part software, I felt at the time that Radio Shack should have promoted this fact, and they should have even offered it in their stores.  By pushing only Radio Shack published titles, they gave many people the impression that there was not very much software available for the TRS-80. The TRS-80 Color Computer should have been an enhanced version of the Model I, by making it a completely new architecture, but keeping the TRS-80 name, they created confusion and disappointment.  In 1980 Radio Shack had the momentum, but these poor choices lost them market share. They later started carrying third party software in the store and in their catalogs, but it was too little, too late.

Edited November 2, 2022 by mutterminder

[ussexplorer]

I didn't know until a few years ago that a Trash-80 was even that large. But, if you read into it. They did one push out a final trs-80 model 4d for customers and moved to DOS compatible (trs-80 model 2000) and then IBM pc compatible. They was not the only company to do that. But they did last a good time into the IBM clone market before existing out of that too. As for Apple's in this area it was the School districts. Then for C64 was tons of home users. I never even seen a Pet until 1990's something at a thrift store and thus, before the internet. Had no idea what it was.

 

TTFN,

 

JOsh

[DiamondLetsPlays]

The TRS-80 was the king of early computers. For some of us it has not lost its throne.

 

I guess whether it does or not depends on whether you want to buy a C64 or not.

[doctorclu]

BTW, saw a TRS-80 Model 4 desktop not portable in a pawn shop in Duncanville, TX the other day.  

 

Asked how much for it, but he just had it on display.

[1980gamer]

We used TRS-80 Model III's in Jr. High and Model IV's in High School.

We even had about 20 of them networked via twisted pair RS-232 connect to a ( I think... a 10 Meg ) hard drive running L-DOS.

 

The stand alone computers were still running TRS-DOS.

 

For more advanced classes we used a DEC PDP11/23 with maybe 6 terminals and 2 Dec-writers.

And for Pascal classes we had a Honeywell mini computer networked to 5 other schools.  Thankfully my high school hosted it.  I cannot imagine how slow those connections were. A mid 80's WAN.  LOL

 

I had a 300/1200 baud modem for my C=64 by then...  I remember thinking 1200 baud was awesome when I could find a host at the same speed.

 

I think it was 1986 when we got a couple of IBM's  and I would hear the teachers telling students to make sure they returned the "misses" dos disks.  Yup.  MS-DOS  Some how a few math teachers were in charge of these machines.

 

Oh, the 80's  I miss them so.  LOL

 

 

[zylon]

We had a c64 in class up to Jr high, then in upper years, Apple II/e and an Amiga. Most were in the Computer Literacy class, but each room had an Apple II/e setup for those finishing their work early. Only one TRS-80, in back corner of one room. It was never used in my time there. They'd quit teaching on those years before.

At home, I had VIC-20, and later a C64c, which I'm still using.  I didn't get into any RS stuff until the Tandy 1000 series.

[AMSDOS]

The Laser computer range was also another affordable computer range, in Australia 'Dick Smith Electronics' (a rival of Tandy's) were selling those, old-computers has the Dick Smith machine dating from 1982 for the VZ-200, though the same website has Laser selling it from Nov. 1983. According to Old computers, the computers were popular in Australia and New Zealand to 1990!