Newbie questions

[sirlynxalot]

I'm increasingly interested in the 8 bit game library. It's hundreds of games, which dwarfs the 5200 and 7800 libraries, and I've pretty well explored most of the libraries on those systems, as well as the 2600 over the last 30 years.

 

I know the 8 bit systems have slightly different specs I think.  If I got an xegs or a 600 or 800xl and a flashcart, would either of those run the majority of the library and provide a console like experience? 

 

An eBay listing I saw for a nib 600xl said not to use the original ac adapter due to a high likelihood that it has failed and will not regulate the voltage going into the system. I've heard about this sort of thing for commodore 64s, would I need an aftermarket power supply to run these systems?

 

Do the majority of the games work with an atari joystick or do you really need a keyboard/mouse to play? 

 

Do carts boot right up on boot up, or would I need to learn some command line stuff to access the files on a cart and get games running, akin to playing games in msdos off of diskettes or cds?

Edited October 21, 2022 by sirlynxalot

[BillC]

15 minutes ago, sirlynxalot said:

An eBay listing I saw for a nib 600xl said not to use the original ac adapter due to a high likelihood that it has failed and will not regulate the voltage going into the system. I've heard about this sort of thing for commodore 64s, would I need an aftermarket power supply to run these systems?

There is one version of the XL/XE power supply, commonly known as the INGOT due to its shape and weight, that has the same circuitry as one of the C64 power supplies minus the 9VAC outputs.

 

This power supply has the same Atari part# as a couple other XL/XE power supplies, but also has DV-512CM on the label.

Edited October 21, 2022 by BillC

[+bf2k+]

25 minutes ago, BillC said:

There is one version of the XL/XE power supply, commonly known as the INGOT due to its shape and weight, that has the same circuitry as one of the C64 power supplies minus the 9VAC outputs.

 

This power supply has the same Atari part# as a couple other XL/XE power supplies, but also has DV-512CM on the label.

Make sure you STAY AWAY from the Ingot!  The other XL power supplies should be fine.  There should be plenty of pictures of the Ingot on this forum.

 

[TGB1718]

35 minutes ago, sirlynxalot said:

Do the majority of the games work with an atari joystick or do you really need a keyboard/mouse to play? 

 

Do carts boot right up on boot up,

Most games use a combination of both, although this is usually limited to the START/SELECT and OPTION keys, then joystick

saying that there are some games that make use of lots of the keys and joystick.

Text adventure games are usually exclusively keyboard.

 

Cartridge games usually boot directly into the game, no command line needed.

Same for most disk based games, they usually boot directly into the game.

 

A mouse is uncommon on the 8 bit Atari, some games have other controllers i.e. track ball, light gun, paddle controllers.

 

Don't know your location, but the Ingot mentioned by @BillC is only in the USA

[bfollowell]

4 hours ago, sirlynxalot said:

I know the 8 bit systems have slightly different specs I think.  If I got an xegs or a 600 or 800xl and a flashcart, would either of those run the majority of the library and provide a console like experience? 

 

Do the majority of the games work with an atari joystick or do you really need a keyboard/mouse to play? 

 

Do carts boot right up on boot up, or would I need to learn some command line stuff to access the files on a cart and get games running, akin to playing games in msdos off of diskettes or cds?

No, an Atari 8-bit with only a flashcart will likely not allow you to run the majority of the 8-bit titles for the simple fact that the majority of 8-bit titles were not released in cartridge format, but on disk or cassette. You can use an AVG Cart with the SIO cable attachment and run most disk and, I think, cassette software, but this isn't true of cartridge emulators in general. Honestly, the Fujinet is the best I/O emulator device going right now, depending on what you want to do with the system, just because of the sheet number of features and devices that it emulates. That isn't for everyone though, and many users aren't at all interested in modem or printer emulation. If that's your case, then you should probably steer towards and AVG Cart with the SIO cable. If you want to explore more of what the 8-bits can do, then the Fujinet is probably more up your alley. Personally, I use the Ultimate Cart and a Fjinet, and I have all bases covered between those two devices. As much as I prefer the "look" of the Ultimate Cart's interface, I have to admit that I have it because I bought it before the AVG Cart came out and, at that time, it emulated more cartridge types than any other cartridge emulator out there. Development on it has become really stagnant over the past couple of years though, and if I were to buy a cartridge emulator today, it would be an AVG Cart. It has had almost constant, non-stop development and updates since it was released and it is an extremely popular device.

 

As do input devices, most Atari 8-bit games use joystick, keyboard, or a combination. There really was no mouse back in the 8-bit heyday, so there is very little use for one with the 8-bits, though you can get one. There's just very little need.

 

As far as cartridges, they boot right into the game/title, so there is no need for any typing or commands for the most part. Most require some input from the function/console keys for Start/Option/Reset.

 

And finally, since no one else has mentioned it yet, you really need browse through the newbie thread. There is a ton of good information in there.

 

 

 

[sirlynxalot]

Thanks, whoops didn't notice the existing newbie thread.  It sounds like software emulation is going to be my simplest option by far.  I was kinda hoping that I could get an xegs and a flash cart and play any of the 8 bit software via the cart regardless of whether it was originally on cart or disk and hopefully run the majority of games like a console with just the joystick, but it looks like I'll really need to get much more hardware than that to have a setup that can run many of the games.

[xrbrevin]

would a fujinet device support all file types in one package?

[Keatah]

30 minutes ago, sirlynxalot said:

It sounds like software emulation is going to be my simplest option by far.

Been doing Atari 8-bit emulation for years now. 10? 15? Always have high confidence that Altirra & Atari800Emulator will run whatever I throw at them. They both accept a wide range of bank switching schemes, file formats, and image types, to make for easy and transparent operation.

 

Switching between models, firmwares, memory configurations, pal/ntsc, and all that, is a breeze compared against acquiring and maintaining real hardware. I used to think C64 was complex in this area, but all the hobbyist development put Atari 8-bits in the lead.

 

In fact it's that newfound simplicity and convenience that puts the 400/800 in 2nd place on my list of favorite classic computers.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Keatah

[mimo]

Also worth noting that a standard 600xl is 16k and will not play the majority of games.

Upgrading it to 64k is fairly simple but will require soldering. Simpler to get an 800xl or a 65/130 XE.

AVG cart with sio cable is a great choice of cart as you can load cartridge images as well as disk and cassette files. It will also act as a ram expansion with another cable 

[bfollowell]

3 hours ago, xrbrevin said:

would a fujinet device support all file types in one package?

 

No, Fujinet is more of a device emulator, so disk drive, cassette, modem, printer, etc. Basically things that work through the SIO port, or an 850, which was hooked up through the SIO port. It doesn't do any sort of cartridge emulation.

 

The AVG Cart does do disk and cassette emulation, but only if you have the cable that connects to the SIO port. There's really no way around that.

 

At this point, there is nothing like that with a Fujinet, but new features being added every other week, who knows what may come in the future? It would be far different though. Rather than having a small cable coming out of the AVG Cart and plugging into the SIO port you'd have to have some sort of cable coming out of the Fujinet and going to a cartridge adapter that could plug into the cartridge port. It definitely sounds much more cumbersome. So, while certainly feasible, it doesn't sound very practical, so I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

 

[Beeblebrox]

@sirlynxalot  this might help:

 

 

Above rom here:https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/side3-beta-loader/

 

Also see here:

I received my new Side3.1 the other week.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[+MrFish]

4 hours ago, Keatah said:

In fact it's that newfound simplicity and convenience that puts the 400/800 in 2nd place on my list of favorite classic computers.

And that's why you'll always be an outsider here.

 

[Keatah]

If it's any consolation the rig at the top of my list is there by default. The Atari 400/800 earned its 2nd place position.

[+MrFish]

5 hours ago, sirlynxalot said:

I was kinda hoping that I could get an xegs and a flash cart and play any of the 8 bit software via the cart regardless of whether it was originally on cart or disk and hopefully run the majority of games like a console with just the joystick, but it looks like I'll really need to get much more hardware than that to have a setup that can run many of the games.

 

Generally speaking, you can play most games on the system with either a cart (AVG, SIDE3, etc.) or a disk emulator (SDrive Max, SIO2SD, etc.) as your sole device and an XEGS, 800XL, 65XE, or 130XE. The reason you can do it with disk emulator only is because most (99%) of the carts have been converted to executable files / disk files. So you don't need cart emulation to play the majority of the library; but I would say a cart like the AVG affords you the most flexibility (as a single device for a machine without upgraded memory), simply because it provides you with a high level of flexibility.

 

A lot of games will run with just a joystick, but you'll generally need to hit the <START> key (and <OPTION> and/or <SELECT> keys for game options) for the majority. For more advanced games, the keyboard is a must; the XEGS has a keyboard as an option for a reason.

 

I wouldn't get discouraged by the options and some complexity being spoken of here. It's not that hard to get started and enjoy many of the games, and the other skills needed will fall into place without much of a learning curve.

 

Emulation is a great option to get started, and Altirra is THE choice among them.

 

People are glad to help you here; although it can get a bit overwhelming -- since everybody has their own perspective on how to use the system. Don't let people's enthusiasm for this or that option intimidate you, though; it's only because they love the system, for exactly the reasons why you're curious to find out about it.

 

[+MrFish]

5 minutes ago, Keatah said:

If it's any consolation the rig at the top of my list is there by default.

There's a default classic computer?

 

[Beeblebrox]

In terms of cart format hardware for XL/XE A8s the SIDE3  (and going forward SIDE 3.1) and the fantastic AVG cart would be those most highly rated IMHO. I personally love the cart based solutions as so easy to use and the developers behind them provide amazing continued support. 

 

Can't wait in coming months to see what SIDE3.1 can do. 

 

The SIO Fujinet is also a pretty amazing device and has a large following and support. 

 

 

 

 

[+MrFish]

11 hours ago, sirlynxalot said:

I know the 8 bit systems have slightly different specs I think.

The 8-bit computers are closely related to the 5200. Thus you'll find nearly all 5200 games on the 8-bit computers, and looking and playing the same (except for the analog joystick used by the 5200). The joystick part is generally a plus, as you can use any Atari 2600-type joystick.

 

The main differences between the 8-bit computers and the 5200 are that the computers have more memory (unless you choose an unmodified 600XL), more peripherals, and digital joysticks. The 8-bit computers also offer better video options out of the box (more simple to get at all of them with a 65XE or 130XE, for a beginner). The 8-bit computers own 99% of the 5200 library, and augment that with thousands more.

 

[+MrFish]

21 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

In terms of cart format hardware for XL/XE A8s the SIDE3  (and going forward SIDE 3.1) and the fantastic AVG cart would be those most highly rated IMHO. I personally love the cart based solutions as so easy to use and the developers behind them provide amazing continued support. 

The SIDE3 is a great piece of hardware; but it's (current) benefits over the AVG cart tend to favor the more advanced users, rather than a beginner wanting to just play games. The SIDE3 does have a prettier and more capable interface. Interface aside, I recommend the AVG cart (in this case).

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by MrFish

[Beeblebrox]

Sure, although you have to also make the distinction between SIDE3 and the newer SIDE3.1 when talking about SIDE3 now. Plus also the current loader firmware vs the beta for it as well. I found to date using the SIDE3 with the beta loader is so easy to use for loading games and much much more. 

 

Edit: FYI for the OP more info about the new SIDE3.1 hardware in the vid

 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[+MrFish]

4 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Plus also the current loader firmware vs the beta for it as well. I found to date using the SIDE3 with the beta loader is so easy to use for loading games and much much more. 

The advantages for the AVG over the SIDE3 that I'm looking at are ATR (disks), ATX (disks), and CAS (cassette) support. Sure, SIDE3 can fully support ATR's with the Ultimate 1MB upgrade; but that's not making things simple (or very low-cost).

  

4 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Sure, although you have to also make the distinction between SIDE3 and the newer SIDE3.1 when talking about SIDE3 now.

I think it's best to focus on things that can actually be purchased (unless the OP is looking to wait).

 

[xxl]

10 minutes ago, MrFish said:

SIDE3 can fully support ATR's with the Ultimate 1MB upgrade;

 

that's not true. SIDE3 does not have full ATR support even with U1MB installed, which is also shown on the AVG website:

https://avgcart.tmp.sk/

[Beeblebrox]

50 minutes ago, MrFish said:

The advantages for the AVG over the SIDE3 that I'm looking at are ATR (disks), ATX (disks), and CAS (cassette) support. Sure, SIDE3 can fully support ATR's with the Ultimate 1MB upgrade; but that's not making things simple (or very low-cost).

  

I think it's best to focus on things that can actually be purchased (unless the OP is looking to wait).

 

Sure, although I'd say the purpose of answering any newbies questions is to show what is and will be imminently available.

The OP may want to wait a few months for example.

 

SIDE3.1 is out already with the extra interface at some stage to follow AFAIK. (Certainly as the above video illustrates the little interface (the SIDE3 wing), is already a reality which plugs into the XE Eci port and then the SIDE3.1 cart. See the video for info. A similar option I guess will be available for XL A8s (600XL and 800XL) which of course do not have Eci ports. 

 

Again you have to make the distinction between SIDE3 hardware and the new SIDE3.1 because the latter does have a ram upgrade built it which stock A8s will be able to use without U1MB. It is a plug and play setup. 

 

Afaik (correct me if I am wrong) SIDE3.1 hardware along with the planned and presumably cheap interface provides a stock A8 (excluding Atari 400/800's) with the ram upgrade of up to 1MB.

 

With AVG you need to buy a little ECI interface cable along with a custom SIO cable after all on top of the cart. This is how these multi carts can tap into the A8s and provide the extra functionality. 

 

Not knocking AVG at all btw. Wonderful cart. Just providing the OP with info hence the video and comparison table I posted. After all candle and fjc are responsible for a great many A8 upgrades/firmware respectively and what fjc has done with the latest Side3 beta firmware and full Fatfms read/write, an amazing interface, cms DOS, etc is remarkable. 

SIDE3 and AVG carts are far more than just a means to load games after all. 

 

Lotharek, Candle and fjc can comment and provide more info of course. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Beeblebrox
Adding extra info

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

I wouldn't get discouraged by the options and some complexity being spoken of here. It's not that hard to get started and enjoy many of the games, and the other skills needed will fall into place without much of a learning curve.

Right just learn as you go. As a child of the 8-bit era, I extensively used those spiral-bound manuals to learn new things. Manuals were well written and contained pertinent information back then. Be like having a ghost instructor right beside you. Many valuable concepts and methodologies were learned. Many still apply today.

 

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

Emulation is a great option to get started, and Altirra is THE choice among them.

Emulation is also a fantastic companion tool when used in conjunction with real hardware. Some emulators are so good they're like having alternate OSes temporarily installed on your PC/host.

 

Always have this little imaginary fantasy that emulators are like personality modules. Not unlike a 70's game cartridge, or Speak'n'Spell Word Module. Or those TI-58/59 Solid State Software libraries. "Modules" to a kid back then were like little boxes of magic.

 

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

People are glad to help you here; although it can get a bit overwhelming -- since everybody has their own perspective on how to use the system. Don't let people's enthusiasm for this or that option intimidate you, though; it's only because they love the system, for exactly the reasons why you're curious to find out about it.

Yes.

 

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

There's a default classic computer?

"Default", I was thinking, means the first computer that made a major impression on you. Or the one you were first exposed to. Something like that. All else is secondary.

[sirlynxalot]

Good info in here folks.  I'm going to continue to do emulation for awhile, but I think my first choice for hardware would be an xegs since it was marketed as a console and Atari consoles have been the primary focus of my playing and owning up until now, and coming late in the 8 bit lifecycle I assume it has adequate memory to play much of the library. Sounds like floppy emulator is the way to go to be able to load much of the library, so a setup would be xegs and keyboard and joystick and floppy emulator... He he with all that plugged in its already deviating from the simple console like experience 😉

 

I'd heard of the great similarity between the 5200 and the 8 bit computers before. When I've played games that came out on both systems, it seems to me that the 8 bit version has much higher resolution, which often let's you see more stuff on the screen. A good case in point is megamania, way more stuff on the screen in the 8 bit version, although the framerate is noticeable slower accordingly... However that can help you play better sometimes too 😂. A shame the 5200 joystick is analogue, many of the games in the library seem designed for precise digital arcade stick like movements to play them well, so it seems like the console would have been better served with something like the 2600 or 7800 joystick anyway.

 

Here's another newbie question. I was trying to play blue max via emulation and no matter what direction or button I pressed on the joystick the plane wouldn't pull up and I crash at the end of the initial runway... How do I take off? 

[mimo]

2 hours ago, sirlynxalot said:

Good info in here folks.  I'm going to continue to do emulation for awhile, but I think my first choice for hardware would be an xegs since it was marketed as a console and Atari consoles have been the primary focus of my playing and owning up until now, and coming late in the 8 bit lifecycle I assume it has adequate memory to play much of the library. Sounds like floppy emulator is the way to go to be able to load much of the library, so a setup would be xegs and keyboard and joystick and floppy emulator... He he with all that plugged in its already deviating from the simple console like experience 😉

 

I'd heard of the great similarity between the 5200 and the 8 bit computers before. When I've played games that came out on both systems, it seems to me that the 8 bit version has much higher resolution, which often let's you see more stuff on the screen. A good case in point is megamania, way more stuff on the screen in the 8 bit version, although the framerate is noticeable slower accordingly... However that can help you play better sometimes too 😂. A shame the 5200 joystick is analogue, many of the games in the library seem designed for precise digital arcade stick like movements to play them well, so it seems like the console would have been better served with something like the 2600 or 7800 joystick anyway.

 

Here's another newbie question. I was trying to play blue max via emulation and no matter what direction or button I pressed on the joystick the plane wouldn't pull up and I crash at the end of the initial runway... How do I take off? 

You have to run along the runway until you hit take off speed, then I think it's push down to take off. Controls are a bit wierd in that game but I think up and down can be switched in the menu.

It's worth persevering as it's one of the best a8 games when you get the hang of it.

 

As for the xegs, whatever floats your boat, but they take up a good chunk of desk space with the keyboard and no pbi port etc etc