With clever programming, do you think we could reach the true potential of the Jaguar's 3D power?

[TronNerd82]

I feel like the Jag's 3D capabilities have been somewhat underutilized, which has left me wondering if it's possible to fully utilize the 3D power of the Jaguar through clever, well-optimized programming that could truly push the limits of what the hardware can do. Is it possible? Let's discuss.

[+Gemintronic]

You could donate a Jaguar to the guy making Openlara.  Maybe that would entice him to port his engine

https://github.com/XProger

[42bs]

1 hour ago, TronNerd82 said:

I feel like the Jag's 3D capabilities have been somewhat underutilized, which has left me wondering if it's possible to fully utilize the 3D power of the Jaguar through clever, well-optimized programming that could truly push the limits of what the hardware can do. Is it possible? Let's discuss.

You should consider to read the posts in this forum. This topic has been discussed to the end. But hey, please go and impress us.

[sirlynxalot]

Was just thinking, didn't we have a multi pager on this not too long ago?  

 

Yeah it's a no brainer that someone who knows the hardware very well and can optimize extensively could create something that shines as a great accomplishment in the library. The same would be true for any console system.  At the end of the day, is an impressive Jaguar 3d game going to rival something well regarded on ps1/Saturn/N64? Probably not.

[Editorb]

5 minutes ago, sirlynxalot said:

Was just thinking, didn't we have a multi pager on this not too long ago?

I haven't been on site too awfully long, but it seems like pernt near every thread delves into this territory even if it's not originally about this.

 

Howbeit: Clever programming reveals any system's abilities; potential indicates abilities not realized.

[phoboz]

Remember that the Jaguar competed with the Super FX chip for SNES and perhaps the SEGA 32X. So gouraud shaded low polygon count games which use old school 3D math (like fixed point calculations) can run at a frame rate comparable to games for the above mentioned competing systems. I would not expect a stable 60 FPS, but 20-30 FPS is a very good achievement and still fully playable.

 

The problem is that it is not easy for a programmer used to modern hardware (everything beyond a 486DX PC) to even begin doing something for the Jaguar. Every single example you find for 3D math today uses floating point calculations, and even many 2D examples (as opposed to fixed point calculation) If you are lucky you may find an example for Arduino or similar that you can use as a starting point. Note that fixed point calculations are very sensitive to precision, so you most likely need to experiment a while with the decimal position before you get it right for your game.

 

Trying to compare the Jaguar to PSX and N64 is really pushing it, as the Jaguar was probably not even meant to be able to handle texturemapping. The fact that the Jaguar hardware does not provide out-of-the-box hardware accelerated rendering made it possible to achieve things outside what was expected due to clever software tricks (like the really impressive voxel games, which I doubt you can even do on the PSX). So what you see in games like Skyhammer is really black magic, and it will probably take decades of work if a homebrewer would ever achieve something similar.

 

This is probably the max if insist on comparing the Jaguar to the PSX and N64, but you can do do many other nice things with the Jaguar instead?

Edited February 20, 2023 by phoboz

[Jones007]

19 hours ago, TronNerd82 said:

I feel like the Jag's 3D capabilities have been somewhat underutilized, which has left me wondering if it's possible to fully utilize the 3D power of the Jaguar through clever, well-optimized programming that could truly push the limits of what the hardware can do. Is it possible? Let's discuss.

I am not quite sure if I really understood your question.
But if I got you right, you're asking if it is possible to max out the Jaguar's hardware with
very sophisticated coding?

Simple answer: Yes.
(And the very same applies to any video game console, I suppose)

But would that be as "easy" as it is on (for example) the Playstation 1?
No.
 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Jones007

[roots.genoa]

With clever education, do you think we could avoid the same topic every month at AtariAge?

[+Gemintronic]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

With clever education, do you think we could avoid the same topic every month at AtariAge?

 

Best we can do is rotate sections,  I'd start a "2600 vs 3DO" topic but I still need to be in their good graces for coding and cart production support!

[Jones007]

52 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

 

I'd start a "2600 vs 3DO" topic

Atari VCS2600 vs. 3DO?
That's easy, I did the math.
2600 is 866,666 times 3, so it must be better.

(Kidding... )

[42bs]

46 minutes ago, Jones007 said:

Atari VCS2600 vs. 3DO?
That's easy, I did the math.
2600 is 866,666 times 3, so it must be better.

(Kidding... )

That is to simple. VCS was 8bit, 3DO is 32bit, so it is 2600x8/(3x32) = 216

So your factor was far to optimistic.

[Jones007]

Hmm, that is true.
And everything should be put under a root-sign, because retro hardware can be quite sensitive to humidity (rain).
So the numbers are even lower, unfortunately.

[Warmsignal]

I feel like we need a Kickstarter program to actually fund a development team to go back and max out the Jag's capabilities once and for all. Maybe Rebellion could be convinced to go back and make another game with the expectation of bringing it to Steam or whatever, so that the sales of the project might actually be worth their while. Never happen, but one can dream.

[+Gemintronic]

1 hour ago, Warmsignal said:

I feel like we need a Kickstarter program to actually fund a development team to go back and max out the Jag's capabilities once and for all. Maybe Rebellion could be convinced to go back and make another game with the expectation of bringing it to Steam or whatever, so that the sales of the project might actually be worth their while. Never happen, but one can dream.

 

That's a great idea!  But, instead of a single Kickstarter maybe make some purhases at the AtariAge store.  They actively foster new hardware and provide a platform for Jag development tools.

https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l=product_list&c=57&sortby=id:desc

 

But, if you're already doing that, the next best thing is to support a developer that is making 3D engines like Openlara.  The dude expressed interest if he only had a Jaguar.

[Gummy Bear]

[jguff]

Do not engage bots/trolls/AI.

[+cubanismo]

On 2/21/2023 at 3:58 AM, roots.genoa said:

With clever education, do you think we could avoid the same topic every month at AtariAge?

But then what would we talk about?

[+CyranoJ]

With clever moderation could we remove all similar threads?

[tripled79]

Isn't Skyhammer already a good example of 3D programming for a Jaguar game?

We should turn this thread into a poll:

 

Was Skyhammer the ceiling as far as 3D games go on the Jaguar?

No? How about AirCars, then?

[phoboz]

3 hours ago, tripled79 said:

Isn't Skyhammer already a good example of 3D programming for a Jaguar game?

We should turn this thread into a poll:

 

Was Skyhammer the ceiling as far as 3D games go on the Jaguar?

No? How about AirCars, then?

1. Skyhammer is an excellent display of the Jaguar's texturemapping capabilites (with clever programming).

 

2. Air Cars & Battlesphere etc. are excellent displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with non-textured polygons.

 

3. Zero 5 & Tube 2020 are excellent displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with flat shaded polygons.

 

4. Phase Zero & Fallen Angels are excellent displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with 3D Voxel graphics.

 

5. Spacewar 2000 is an excellent display of the Jaguar's capabilities of mixing polygon graphics with scaled 2D sprites.

 

6. Super Burnout & Val D'isere skiing and snowboarding are excellent displays of the Jaguar's super scaler capabilities.

 

7. Iron Soldier, Club Drive & Fight for Life are displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with 3D polygons (texturemapped, gouraud, or flat shaded)

 

To me this sets the top bar for the Jaguar, and these games are very impressive compared to other consoles of that generation. So I am not really sure what more could be expected in the 3D domain of the Jaguar's capabilities?

How more clever can a programmer be?

 

====

My belive is that if a C compiler becomes available for the GPU we could see more advanced games.

===========

 

Because I don't belive going to a lower abstraction layer (= lower productivity) would help. Rather I think any remaining potential can only be unleased if something previously missing on the Jaguar would become available (compared to PSX, N64)

 

Remember, the Jaguar is a 64-bit system, not like an 8-bit system that a single developer can squeeze some extra bits out of by writing machine code. As we have seen, it is even a challange for a small team to develop a game that looks like a professional 16-bit game with the current toolchains.

 

Hint:

(to any potential Jaguar toolchain developers out there)

 

LLVM is an excellent framework for developing toolchains for new architectures. You simply need to write the backend, as frontends for several programming languages already exists. Today it is used for developing shading languages, high level programming languages etc. by Adobe, Apple, Intel, Sony Imageworks etc.

Edited February 23, 2023 by phoboz

[+Gemintronic]

Some parts of the Jaguar were technically 64 bit.  Not enough to say the system was always running in 64 bit mode for all everything. 

 

The whole GPU in Main thing has been debated for ages.  But, there are huge constraints including bus contention and limited code size.  Think more along the lines of a PS3 SPU but with more unknown behaviors, gotchas and quirks.

 

There are already plenty of assemblers and such.  Just because LLVM is a popular thing on the PC side doesn't mean it's optimal for classic consoles.

 

But, we're both back seat drivers telling experienced cabbies the best way to get to sesame street.

[phoboz]

54 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

There are already plenty of assemblers and such.  Just because LLVM is a popular thing on the PC side doesn't mean it's optimal for classic consoles.

It's popular for a reason. Because you can focus only on developing an optimal backend for your specific architecture.

 

The GNU compiler collection is somewhat similar, because it has also been extended to more and more architectures in the past. I guess many of these target implementations re-used a lot of the existing GCC code.

 

LLVM make a more clear distinction between backends and frontends. It has more tools included for optimization etc. I cannot say if it's harder to get started compared to using GCC. In the end, I am not sure writing a C compiler from scratch is a good way to go for maintainability reasons?

 

The website says that Siemens used LLVM for developing a toolchain for an embedded WLIV processor, so it should be feasable for the Jaguar's custom CPUs.

 

PS. On the VLIW architecture it is very important for the compiler to find the paths for parallel execution (e.g. static scheduling by the compiler as opposed to dynamic scheduling by the OS on the PC). So I guess they found some tools in LLVM that motivated them to go this path? Maybe there are more optimising tools (or will be in the future) in LLVM that can help optimize code at compilation stage for the Jaguar?

 

I mean, if we can leave some of the cleverness to a computer (when tools for that are available) Maybe we should try to move away from the demo party style programming we did in the 80's and 90's?

Edited February 23, 2023 by phoboz

[Goochman]

Has anyone asked ChatGPT to produce a working C complier for the GPU?   

[agradeneu]

6 hours ago, phoboz said:

1. Skyhammer is an excellent display of the Jaguar's texturemapping capabilites (with clever programming).

 

2. Air Cars & Battlesphere etc. are excellent displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with non-textured polygons.

 

3. Zero 5 & Tube 2020 are excellent displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with flat shaded polygons.

 

4. Phase Zero & Fallen Angels are excellent displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with 3D Voxel graphics.

 

5. Spacewar 2000 is an excellent display of the Jaguar's capabilities of mixing polygon graphics with scaled 2D sprites.

 

6. Super Burnout & Val D'isere skiing and snowboarding are excellent displays of the Jaguar's super scaler capabilities.

 

7. Iron Soldier, Club Drive & Fight for Life are displays of the Jaguar's capabilities with 3D polygons (texturemapped, gouraud, or flat shaded)

 

To me this sets the top bar for the Jaguar, and these games are very impressive compared to other consoles of that generation. So I am not really sure what more could be expected in the 3D domain of the Jaguar's capabilities?

How more clever can a programmer be?

 

====

My belive is that if a C compiler becomes available for the GPU we could see more advanced games.

===========

 

Because I don't belive going to a lower abstraction layer (= lower productivity) would help. Rather I think any remaining potential can only be unleased if something previously missing on the Jaguar would become available (compared to PSX, N64)

 

Remember, the Jaguar is a 64-bit system, not like an 8-bit system that a single developer can squeeze some extra bits out of by writing machine code. As we have seen, it is even a challange for a small team to develop a game that looks like a professional 16-bit game with the current toolchains.

 

Hint:

(to any potential Jaguar toolchain developers out there)

 

LLVM is an excellent framework for developing toolchains for new architectures. You simply need to write the backend, as frontends for several programming languages already exists. Today it is used for developing shading languages, high level programming languages etc. by Adobe, Apple, Intel, Sony Imageworks etc.

 

I would not consider Club Drive a great example of Jaguar polygon gfx and it was universally panned by critics. Which is no surprise as Stunt Race FX for the SNES totally smokes it.  Aircars is okish at best, falls flat compared to Cybermorph, a launch title, but was released 2 years later, late in the systems lifecycle.

 

What about Doom and AvP or Battlemorph? These were great examples,  Iron Soldier too. Tempest 2000 was a also showcase what the Jag could do if programmers knew what they were doing.  

 

IMO Hover Strike CD is quite an impressive 3D engine, technically (also used for Space War).  

 

There is always some room for improvements, especially for frame rates or some clever tricks.

 

Eclipse mastered the Jaguar with 3D and unfortunality they did only 2 games during the systems short life span. 

There were rumors of a racing game engine wih full texture mapping at 30FPS - really a shame it never came to fruition.

 

Iam pretty sure Marc Rosocha would agree that there were some possibilties not realized due to Ataris quick demise

 

Jeff MInter only did 2 games too, and J. Carmack only 1 game, the Doom port. He said he could do better with more time working on the system, but it failed commercially so ID was not keen to give it another go.

 

Usually, systems get more impressive games during their lifespan, the complex PS3 needed 3 years to get defining games like Uncharted 2 or God of War 3.

 

 

For the Jag, the programmers/teams that were really good with it only realized/produced 1-2 games, that is not really a lot compared to devs working on SNES/MD or any other system.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by agradeneu

[phoboz]

28 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

 

I would not consider Club Drive a great example of Jaguar polygon gfx and it was universally panned by critics. Which is no surprise as Stunt Race FX for the SNES totally smokes it.  Aircars is okish at best, falls flat compared to Cybermorph, a launch title, but was released 2 years later, late in the systems lifecycle.

 

What about Doom and AvP or Battlemorph? These were great examples,  Iron Soldier too. Tempest 2000 was a also showcase what the Jag could do if programmers knew what they were doing.  

 

IMO Hover Strike CD is quite an impressive 3D engine, technically (also used for Space War).  

Yes there are plenty good examples that showcase the Jaguar's 3D capabilities. The problem is that it's not so easy for small teams to achieve something similar in the 3D domain, as tool support is so limited. In that sense, Sony, Nintendo and SEGA made excellent choices (for their post 16-bit systems) as they selected commercial of the shelf components, which already had excellent tool support (E.g. MIPS and SuperH professors)

 

To expect that some homebrewer miraculously archives something that overshine for example Skyhammer (in terms of textured polygons) is very slim. Given that it took many years for a professional team to get to that level.

We all also see where to Open Lara project stands now.

 

I did read that 4Play/SCATO Logic were in discussions to make a licensable 3D engine, that other developers could use. Perhaps the Skyhammer engine could also be generalised? That would have helped a lot back in the day. If these engine would also have been opened up when the Jaguar went an open platform, developers today could make use of them.

 

At the same time, we also have the sourcecode for Fight for Life. No one has been able to make something useful out of it. So this is a problem with something written in a low level programming language (e.g. not maintainable). You need to provide an interface that hides this complexity to another user, otherwise it's pretty useless. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by phoboz