With clever programming, do you think we could reach the true potential of the Jaguar's 3D power?

[Class316]

6 hours ago, zzip said:

No there weren't a lot of Atari fans left and sales reflect that,  The 7800 was a good demonstration of why.   It was already kind of dated when it finally made it out the door in 86,  they never did a 16-bit console to compete with Genesis and SNES, so Atari basically skipped a console generation.  There was a 10 year technology gap between the 7800 and Jag.   Many of their fans wanting something better than 7800 where already jumping ship.

 

 

Which backs my point even further.

 

4 hours ago, Warmsignal said:

Seems that the conversation always circles back to "bits" and short-sighted expectations. The AVGN mantra. As I understand it, bits were mostly a marketing gimmick, but the consumer was duped into thinking bits equate to games that are this many times more advanced. Obviously people still buy that.

 

Are Nintendo 64 games twice as advanced as PSX, or Saturn games? If they are, it's totally lost on me. Was the Saturn somehow "not a true 32-bit system" because the PlayStation outperformed it in terms of it's 3D capability? Nah. So why do so many insist on arguing in circles about Jag's next-gen validity? Because of the quick and dirty ports the system received, I'd have to assume. It's a common practice in the industry to port over recent games to a new platform, but folks are quick to judge the console based on those ports alone because they make up a portion of the already small library. It doesn't mean that's all the console could have ever offered. Things were barely off of the ground before it was over.

 

My armchair take, is that Atari was too broke and too naive for it's ambitions to be properly realized. Very little ever materialized before bankruptcy... Atari was funding the development of almost everything that actually saw the light of day on the system. I kinda doubt that it's capabilities end where Atari ended it. Similar deal with Saturn, some of those later games in 97' were looking more and more refined for a system that "wasn't conceived to do 3D gaming", but then Sega pulled the plug because it wasn't selling. We'll never know the extent of what could have been rung out of that machine, either.

Whether or not bits matter is not my argument. Point is they were marketed as such by most everyone, including Atari's with their "do the math". So consumers who saw "oh wow 64 bit" and bought the system must have been heart crushed as there was almost nothing that demonstrated superiority over 16-bit.

 

As for Saturn, it was more of a 2D powerhouse than a 3D system. Whereas PS1 and N64 were more 3D systems. But that's another topic. Ironically it's those 2D games of the Saturn that hold up today even though 2D was seen as outdated back then. SFZ3 for Saturn is regarded as the best version of that game that exists even today (even better than the Dreamcast version which was released first). And Saturn wasn't a total failure. It was a total failure outside Japan. It is actually Sega's best selling console in Japan. And in Japan it even beat N64, marking the first and only time a Sega system gave a Nintendo system a run for its money in Japan. Also in Japan the system stayed alive till 1999-2000.

 

3 hours ago, Cris1997XX said:

Some 3DO games really did show off the machine's beefy hardware when compared to SNES and Mega Drive. A couple of examples are Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Samurai Shodown and Wolfenstein 3D (Even better than the Jaguar version in my opinion)

Right that's basically what I said. 

 

1 hour ago, 7800JAGFAN said:

Both of those games looked "SNES" level to me at the time, both were indeed on it (Super SF 2 anyway).  Wolf 3d Looked best on Jaguar and AVP and Iron Soldier looked as good as anything at the time.  I was there and at my local mall Jaguar was clearly better than Snes and Genesis, it was just that it was already price reduced to $99 and no new games seemed to be coming.  Plus at that point as a 7800 owner I had already watched Atari fail once, and didn't want to risk the $$$ on the Jaguar- at the time.  

 

SSF2T and Samurai Shodown were surely superior to their SNES counterparts. They were closest to the arcade at the time. Though by today's standards you have the arcade roms so you don't need those versions. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Class316

[+CyranoJ]

2 hours ago, Class316 said:

As for Saturn, it was more of a 2D powerhouse than a 3D system.

 

I'm glad you've acknowledged that. So was the Jaguar, which makes this and all the infinte number of other similar threads pointless.

 

[Class316]

24 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

I'm glad you've acknowledged that. So was the Jaguar, which makes this and all the infinte number of other similar threads pointless.

But again, when you got a Saturn, it clearly did significantly more than the 16-bit SNES and Genesis, Jaguar did not despite "do the math". Regardless of whether it's 2D or 3D system. 

[+CyranoJ]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

 

[+Biff Burgertime]

"Do the meth"

[Cris1997XX]

8 hours ago, 7800JAGFAN said:

Both of those games looked "SNES" level to me at the time, both were indeed on it (Super SF 2 anyway).  Wolf 3d Looked best on Jaguar and AVP and Iron Soldier looked as good as anything at the time.  I was there and at my local mall Jaguar was clearly better than Snes and Genesis, it was just that it was already price reduced to $99 and no new games seemed to be coming.  Plus at that point as a 7800 owner I had already watched Atari fail once, and didn't want to risk the $$$ on the Jaguar- at the time.  

 

How could Samurai Shodown look "SNES" level when it had the sprite scaling from the arcade? Sure, it was kinda choppy, but it was leagues better than no scaling at all 😂

Edited February 24, 2023 by Cris1997XX

[agradeneu]

We were gifted a Jag as the supposed new main console as a company for our SNES. 

 

In a nutshell: We were impressed by games like Cybermorph, Tempest 2000, AvP, Doom and Iron Soldier. These were games def. different than the usual 16 bit games crowd and not possible on older hardware.

 

There was quite some enthusiasm for the new system, something modern youtubers might not understand.

 

However, we were disappointed that Atari managed to get very few great games out for the system. 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Cris1997XX said:

How could Samurai Shodown look "SNES" level when it had the sprite scaling from the arcade? Sure, it was kinda choppy, but it was leagues better than no scaling at all 😂

That is a bit funny indeed. The Samurai Showdown port for the SNES was respectable, but still a rather huge downgrade from the NEOGEO original.

 

The port for the 3DO was almost as good as the original, as I heard

Edited February 24, 2023 by agradeneu

[+madman]

13 hours ago, Warmsignal said:

Are Nintendo 64 games twice as advanced as PSX, or Saturn games?

Well technically twice advanced as 32-bit would be 33 bits, not 64. Do the math.

[7800JAGFAN]

3 hours ago, Cris1997XX said:

How could Samurai Shodown look "SNES" level when it had the sprite scaling from the arcade? Sure, it was kinda choppy, but it was leagues better than no scaling at all 😂

It was 2d, and still on the Snes and Sega CD, despite being much worse.  Trevor McFur is moving and scaling more sprites than Snes as well, but that sure didn't impress anybody.  

[agradeneu]

20 minutes ago, 7800JAGFAN said:

It was 2d, and still on the Snes and Sega CD, despite being much worse.  Trevor McFur is moving and scaling more sprites than Snes as well, but that sure didn't impress anybody.  

 

So anything 2D counts as "SNES" in your book? 

 

Trevor McFur does nothing impressive 2D, it is very basic and static, the prerendered gfx looked MEH at best,  play some launch titles on the SNES, like Contra 3, they absolutely smoke it.

I did not see any scaling effect in TMcF worth mentioning either and surely not a full screen scaling effect like in Samurai S.

 

On the other hand, Samurai S. is a very impressive 2D game, and considering the 3DO was not that great with 2d, quite an impressive port too.

 

I would be glad if there was a port for Jaguar instead of turkeys like Trevor McFur

Personally Iam impressed with many NEOGEO games, despite them being 2D, and they have aged wonderfully, contrary to low framerate early 3D games.

Edited February 24, 2023 by agradeneu

[7800JAGFAN]

8 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

 

So anything 2D counts as "SNES" in your book? 

 

Trevor McFur does nothing impressive 2D, it is very basic and static, play some launch titles on the SNES, like Contra 3, they absolutely smoke it.

 

Samurai S. is a very impressive 2D game, and considering the 3DO was not that great with 2d, quite an impressive port.

 

I would be glad if there was a port for Jaguar instead of turkeys like Trevor McFur

Personally Iam impressed with many NEOGEO games, despite them being 2d, and they have aged wonderfully.

No, that was the teenage mindset for most at that time-myself included.  If it was not 3d many didn't see it as that far beyond Snes and Genesis.  I also own an MVS and 60+ carts.  I love Samurai Shodown and think the 3do version is pretty damn good.  But at the time, it seemed "out-dated".  This is now coming from somebody who's newest console is the Atari Jaguar.  The rest of my collection is Atari 2600/7800/XE/XL/Jaguar, Nes, Snes, Genesis, PC Engine, and Neo Geo MVS.  So, I obviously have a thing for "2d" gaming.  But when I was 16-18 3d and FMV really did seem like the future.  

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by 7800JAGFAN
spelling

[7800JAGFAN]

Well, 3D gaming was.  Just anything 2d for a short while seemed like yesterdays news. 

[zzip]

9 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

11 hours ago, Class316 said:

As for Saturn, it was more of a 2D powerhouse than a 3D system.

 

I'm glad you've acknowledged that. So was the Jaguar, which makes this and all the infinte number of other similar threads pointless.

Put it this way-   these were 3D systems for an era where 3D hardware as we know it today wasn't mainstream yet.   For the time they could do 3D games better than other consoles because they had some hardware to assist that.   Games like Doom seemed like next-level 3D games (technical people can see the limits of the Doom engine and why it isn't real 3D, but I don't think the average gamer really cared about the finer points of that)

 

But now that we think of 3D systems as requiring powerful, dedicated GPUs,  those systems don't seem 3D at all.

 

 

[agradeneu]

9 minutes ago, 7800JAGFAN said:

Well, 3D gaming was.  Just anything 2d for a short while seemed like yesterdays news. 

Despite the 3D craze, we quite loved Donkey Kong C. and Rayman. But yeah, platformers and 1vs1 fighting games became kinda stale, because there were so many of them!

 

I was really craving for Rebel Assault coming to Jaguar CD. NEver happened, but that game was perceived as the "future". 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by agradeneu

[7800JAGFAN]

I had it on Sega CD and later the 3do.  I know its not to good but actually had fun with it, I also bought Rebel Assault 2 for the PSX.  Now I just play most of those on a Raspberry pi4.   My "big" system was the Sega Saturn, but I sold it to fund my Neo Geo expedition.  I miss it, but don't have any regrets.   

 

[phoboz]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

I was really craving for Rebel Assault coming to Jaguar CD.

The sound of Rebel Assault was amazing, I almost remember dialogs by heart. Some things are better remembered than re-experienced, as I recently played Rebel Assault on 3DO.

 

The game is very much based on video sequences with low enough resolution to stream from a dual speed CD-rom. This is of course not very impressive by today's standards.

 

The game is a nice very piece of art, and it can work if you sit far away from the TV to not be bothered by the low resolution video.

 

Some sections in the game are not according to the movies. I really liked the part where you have to shoot all the armored parts off the walker. In the movies, the walker can only be defeated using a cable, which was the case in Empire Stikes Back on SNES, but Rebel Assault has it's own take on that part. I kind of liked that, but some of my friends were not hesitating to tell me that this game was wrong

(maybe there was an uninteractive section with a cable after you shot off all the armor from the walker, I don't remember now? Just to satisfy that part of the audience)

Edited February 24, 2023 by phoboz

[ZylonBane]

How is this dumb thread three pages long already?

 

The original question is a tautology. Could a Jaguar game be as potentially good as the Jaguar's potential? By definition, yes. Asked and answered, lights out, shut it down.

[+Sauron]

1 hour ago, ZylonBane said:

How is this dumb thread three pages long already?

 

The original question is a tautology. Could a Jaguar game be as potentially good as the Jaguar's potential? By definition, yes. Asked and answered, lights out, shut it down.

We've had threads that are far worse go on for much, much longer. Stop acting surprised, you've been around these parts for far too long to fool anyone.

 

[LynxJagLunatic]

If released by Nintendo or Sony then the Jaguar would have had the best development possible. What would the Jaguar have been with a larger budget and the best developers? Who knows for sure. I would imagine we’d have seen what the jag was capable of.

[+Biff Burgertime]

With clever use of marketing budget, do you think we could've gotten another Jaguar infomercial?

 

 

[Editorb]

9 hours ago, Buffalo Biff Burgertime said:

With clever use of marketing budget, do you think we could've gotten another Jaguar infomercial?

 

 

It screams for a sequel. What happened with Announcer Guy's cocaine addiction? Does Catwoman prey on others or was this a one-off? What happens a year later when Bob realizes he could have bought the entire library for what he paid for one game?

[Goochman]

If Cocaine Bear can make it to the big screen, hell Cocaine Atari Informerical should be a no brainer

[Cris1997XX]

On 2/25/2023 at 3:27 AM, ZylonBane said:

How is this dumb thread three pages long already?

 

The original question is a tautology. Could a Jaguar game be as potentially good as the Jaguar's potential? By definition, yes. Asked and answered, lights out, shut it down.

You've been here for a way longer time than me, yet you still act surprised? 😂

[+LS650]

On 2/24/2023 at 7:52 PM, Sauron said:

We've had threads that are far worse go on for much, much longer. Stop acting surprised, you've been around these parts for far too long to fool anyone.

 

It wouldn't be a Jaguar thread without zylonbane's snark.