Marcos Moutta Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I've been watching this channel called "The 8-bit Guy" since 2016, and although his videos have definitely dropped in quality recently, they used to be great. I recently began to think about something he used to say a lot. It went kind of like this: "I learned to program thanks to my VIC-20. It came with a great user's guide that taught me Microsoft Basic very well, and after that everything was easier". That's pretty funny advice. "Want to code? Learn Basic." Not even C! 🤣 But I thought I'd give it a try, because I think it would be a really pleasant experience. I don't actually want to "learn the basics of coding", I already write C for that. Just want to learn an obsolete language and have some fun doing so. So my question is: what are the best "Retro computers that natively run Basic and come with a great user's manual that teaches you how to program it"? I thought about following his advice and just getting a VIC-20 but it has no commands for graphics or sound. PS. What 8-bit computers had the best third party Basic "compilers"? Amiga had "Blitz Basic" which was great but that's 16-bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhd Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Personally, I learned BASIC with the manual set for the Color Computer when I was about twelve years old. The humour is a bit dated (and probably it was not even that funny ca. 1980), but it is overall a good self-teaching guide. Extended Color BASIC has a full suite of graphics and sound commands, though the maximum screen resolution is 256x192x2 and drawing on the screen is painfully slow. Hardware sprites are not available. There were apparently some compilers, but I never used any so I cannot comment. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Had or has the best compiled BASIC? The Atari 8-bit computers have a very powerful FastBasic that lets you make very advanced programs with little code. Otherwise BBC BASIC is popular, originally on the BBC Micro but also in Z80 flavour for many different systems. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr SQL Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Microsoft BASIC 2.0 on the VIC-20 and C64 gets derided a lot but it's actually an excellent BASIC with full Multidimensional Array support and string handling. You have to use pokes for graphics and sound but that is very educational too. As stated the Color Computer Extended BASIC is more robust and better insulates you from the low level hardware. The Matel Aquarius is known for an excellent BASIC manual despite being less powerful than it's contemporaries. The ZX-81 BASIC manual is also excellent for teaching it's slightly different flavor of BASIC as well. BASIC is far more intuitive than C and a lot of fun to program in so you will find it very easy to learn. Many non computer science students became very adept at programming with BASIC at Dartmouth College where it was created, it's basically Tiny Fortran. If you have experience with Assembly that will make it even easier since some of the intrinsic commands are very similar. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle_jedi Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I agree with @carlsson here that BBC BASIC is one of your best choices. The BASIC is powerful and has a rich command set, there is support for embedding 6502 Assembler code, and if you are planning on using the original system itself, rather than an emulator, the BBC keyboard is beautiful and the system can be expanded to support disk drives with relative ease. The BBC also has an 80 column mode which I find much easier to program in, given that I can see more code on the screen at once. The Acorn Electron is a cut price alternative that still has a nice keyboard, 80 column mode, and now features some great add on hard ware to allow you to save your work to SD cards, but is much much slower than the BBC and lacks the "PRESTEL" MODE7 display option. An alternative I will offer up - the C128. The BASIC 7 will be familiar if you're used V2 BASIC in the past, but has the additional features one would expect from a serious programming language. Plus the C128 has a vastly better keyboard than the VIC20 or C64, and has a wonderful 80 column output option if you have a RGB monitor. Again the C128 has easy support for disk drives and modern storage devices to save your work and progress. Plus you can switch into C64 mode and use the V2 BASIC you are already familiar with, or just kick back and play some great games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcos Moutta Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 6 hours ago, carlsson said: FastBasic This seems really interesting! What version of Basic is it based on? 7 hours ago, jhd said: x2 What's this x2? ...anyway, CoCo 3 seems really nice. I'll consider it. 5 hours ago, oracle_jedi said: BBC BASIC is one of your best choices. Seems like an awesome choice indeed. What computer that ran BBC Basic do you think came with the best manual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 FastBasic borrows from Atari's own BASIC and TurboBASIC XL. https://github.com/dmsc/fastbasic/blob/master/manual.md When it comes to BBC BASIC, it came natively with the Beeb, but I would suppose other ports are just as well documented. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle_jedi Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 You can see some PDFs of the original Acorn documentation here: https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14024 The later B+ and Master 128 systems got a better manual, but the original one is still a good start. Note that many of these machines spent time in classrooms in the UK, and many will be missing the original documentation set, or it may be very well worn. Also check out YT for the BBC's original The Computer Programme - and later Micro Live , for which the BBC Micro was originally commissioned. And countless third party books, magazine articles etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMaddog Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 On 3/27/2023 at 11:41 AM, jhd said: Personally, I learned BASIC with the manual set for the Color Computer when I was about twelve years old. The humour is a bit dated (and probably it was not even that funny ca. 1980), but it is overall a good self-teaching guide. Extended Color BASIC has a full suite of graphics and sound commands, though the maximum screen resolution is 256x192x2 and drawing on the screen is painfully slow. Hardware sprites are not available. There were apparently some compilers, but I never used any so I cannot comment. It's even easier to learn Color Computer BASIC on a modern PC... Go to the TRS-80 Color Computer Archive and download the VCC emulator and a PDF of the Color Computer BASIC Manual. That way you can have a BASIC enviroment in one window and the manual in a another one. And here's a playlist of tutorial videos using those things on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDfh7JjQaSYA1fP5KwRiOwefFIIF1Alid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcos Moutta Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 1 hour ago, MrMaddog said: VCC emulator and a PDF of the Color Computer BASIC Manual Couldn't find either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 VCC emulator: https://colorcomputerarchive.com/repo/Emulators/Windows/Vcc/ I don't quite know which of these documents is the original manual, but you got them all here: https://colorcomputerarchive.com/repo/Documents/Books/ Anyway, I never used the CoCo BASIC so I don't know about its strengths or weaknesses. Since you mentioned commands for graphics and sound in your first post, and why that disqualified the VIC-20 since you would not want to fiddle around with POKE's like we did 40 years ago, I suppose access to a set of good graphics commands is high on your wish list. The 256x192x2 that jhd mentioned above means a resolution of 256x192 pixels in two colours, typically black and white. If it was x4, that would be a palette of four colours etc. It should not be confused with the bit planes used on EGA/VGA, Amiga, Atari ST etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 On 3/26/2023 at 7:28 PM, Marcos Moutta said: So my question is: what are the best "Retro computers that natively run Basic and come with a great user's manual that teaches you how to program it"? I thought about following his advice and just getting a VIC-20 but it has no commands for graphics or sound. I learned everything I know about computers from programming the Apple II when I was a kid in gradeschool. The concepts I learned then are still very much applicable today, especially the DOS-related stuff. The system (with Disk II drive) gave me 4 manuals. A hardware reference, BASIC reference, BASIC tutorial, and DOS. The manuals were written in a way this kid could understand as well as adults. Felt like I had an instructor right beside me as I worked through the examples. When I had questions I'd just go to the contents/index to find answers. Today you just don't see this level of quality in consumer product documentation. It was fun to read the manuals of the day as they introduced new technologies. And BTW the Apple II has no/minimal provisions for sound in BASIC. But more for graphics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 On 3/26/2023 at 8:28 PM, Marcos Moutta said: "I learned to program thanks to my VIC-20. It came with a great user's guide that taught me Microsoft Basic very well, and after that everything was easier". That's pretty funny advice. "Want to code? Learn Basic." Not even C! 🤣 But I thought I'd give it a try, because I think it would be a really pleasant experience. I don't actually want to "learn the basics of coding", I already write C for that. Just want to learn an obsolete language and have some fun doing so. This was great advice for us 80s kids But I'm not sure there's much value in learning it now if you already know how to code. It will probably just frustrate you with its archaic constructs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 58 minutes ago, zzip said: It will probably just frustrate you with its archaic constructs Very well possible. Part of the fun I had back in the day was learning both the syntax and flow. And the occasional trick for making something easier to edit. Apple II was full of all sorts of hidden and accommodating things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 19 hours ago, Keatah said: Very well possible. Part of the fun I had back in the day was learning both the syntax and flow. And the occasional trick for making something easier to edit. Apple II was full of all sorts of hidden and accommodating things. I did the same with Atari Basic, but when I got to college for a comp-sci degree, I had to unlearn a lot of the bad coding practices that BASIC taught me. Now when I look at a BASIC program, I wonder how I ever worked like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMaddog Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 2 hours ago, zzip said: I did the same with Atari Basic, but when I got to college for a comp-sci degree, I had to unlearn a lot of the bad coding practices that BASIC taught me. Now when I look at a BASIC program, I wonder how I ever worked like that Hate to say it but Atari BASIC is a terrible way to learn BASIC for other systems. The fact you have to make DIM statements for every single string varable alone makes it a pain to translate to different computers that use the Microsoft BASIC dialect. I remember a student from my college programming course tell the teacher why he has a hard time running the examples in the book on Atari BASIC and she menitoned the sting DIMming. That's why Atari had to release a seperate MS BASIC on disk for the 8-bits and I even had to use ST BASIC for my first programming course in college which teaches structured programming in MS BASIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejay Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 As a casual user, personally I would recommend the C128 if it weren’t for the terrible keyboard it came with (whoever thinks otherwise is lying). The manual is bland and boring, but it’s thorough and informative. The C128 came built in with a sprite editor and the HELP key is somewhat useful in finding typos and whatnot in case you don’t feel like doing manual labor. BASIC 7’s additional disk commands and fast disk access with the 1571 are highly convenient as well. BASIC 7 also includes a machine language monitor, although I’m not sure how useful this would be to you. The biggest downside to the C128 (and 1571) is the cost. They’re expensive beasts. An affordable alternative is an Extended Color Basic CoCo as others have mentioned. A 64K ECB CoCo 2 is dirt cheap, and it’s also trivial to upgrade a 16K machine to 64K should you acquire one instead. ECB is fun to use and has graphics and sound commands along with a fairly convenient screen editor. The manual is, as previously mentioned, fun enough to read but I didn’t find it as thorough as the C128’s. However, one thing to keep in mind is that this was designed as a low cost computer and mainly uses cassette storage and exclusively RF output. Disk drives are expensive and composite mods are cumbersome. Of course, these aren’t really issues if you’re planning on using an emulator. The VIC-20 and C64 aren’t so bad for learning BASIC. I personally developed a certain fondness for POKE commands as I figured my way through 6502 machine language. However, I would try to stay away from the VIC-20 for its 22 column screen which can’t quite fit its own disk directory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 On 4/14/2023 at 4:38 PM, MrMaddog said: Hate to say it but Atari BASIC is a terrible way to learn BASIC for other systems. The fact you have to make DIM statements for every single string varable alone makes it a pain to translate to different computers that use the Microsoft BASIC dialect. I remember a student from my college programming course tell the teacher why he has a hard time running the examples in the book on Atari BASIC and she menitoned the sting DIMming. That's why Atari had to release a seperate MS BASIC on disk for the 8-bits and I even had to use ST BASIC for my first programming course in college which teaches structured programming in MS BASIC. Yeah the fact that Atari BASIC's dialect is different caused us headaches when trying to to type in programs from BASIC books. But I think DIMming strings is the least of the issues. Many languages force you to declare all variables. Yes it was possible to do structured programming with the 8-bit microcomputer BASICs, but it was rudimentary compared to other languages that force you to program that way. Seemed like every new self-taught BASIC programmer learned the GOTO command right off the bat and set about abusing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakogame 箱亀 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 I really like programming in MSX BASIC... But only in 80 columns, which means you'd have to use an MSX2 which is rather pricey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82-T/A Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 On 3/26/2023 at 8:28 PM, Marcos Moutta said: I've been watching this channel called "The 8-bit Guy" since 2016, and although his videos have definitely dropped in quality recently, they used to be great. I recently began to think about something he used to say a lot. It went kind of like this: "I learned to program thanks to my VIC-20. It came with a great user's guide that taught me Microsoft Basic very well, and after that everything was easier". That's pretty funny advice. "Want to code? Learn Basic." Not even C! 🤣 But I thought I'd give it a try, because I think it would be a really pleasant experience. I don't actually want to "learn the basics of coding", I already write C for that. Just want to learn an obsolete language and have some fun doing so. So my question is: what are the best "Retro computers that natively run Basic and come with a great user's manual that teaches you how to program it"? I thought about following his advice and just getting a VIC-20 but it has no commands for graphics or sound. PS. What 8-bit computers had the best third party Basic "compilers"? Amiga had "Blitz Basic" which was great but that's 16-bit. You want to learn an obsolete language and have some fun doing it? Learn MUMPS. They're paying people in excess of $250k annual salaries because there's no one left to program in it. Almost everyone is dead, and the few who still program in it are in their 50s and / or are in nursing homes. I can program in it, but I just don't really do development anymore. But it's a fun language, and heavy in the medical industry. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcos Moutta Posted April 23 Author Share Posted April 23 On 4/20/2023 at 4:59 PM, 82-T/A said: You want to learn an obsolete language and have some fun doing it? Learn MUMPS. They're paying people in excess of $250k annual salaries because there's no one left to program in it. Almost everyone is dead, and the few who still program in it are in their 50s and / or are in nursing homes. I can program in it, but I just don't really do development anymore. But it's a fun language, and heavy in the medical industry. It's funny how this is the first ever time I hear about such language and I'm very sure if I don't dive deeper it will also be the last. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82-T/A Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 (edited) On 4/23/2023 at 2:54 AM, Marcos Moutta said: It's funny how this is the first ever time I hear about such language and I'm very sure if I don't dive deeper it will also be the last. 🤣 Haha... yeah, pretty much. That said, it's heavily used in the medical industry, and a little bit less so in the banking industry. Most medical companies that have been around pre-2000 use MUMPS. It's not just a language, but an interpreted environment and database all in one. It generally runs off of an AS/400 type environment, and is extremely fast for number-crunching... which is why it was used in the first place. Some colleges also still use it for course registration and sign-up. Interestingly enough, Dominoes Pizza used it up until just 10 years ago... even their online ordering system was based on a visual representation of it called "Cache'" It was a fun language to learn, but it was a long time ago for me. I haven't programmed in it for almost ~18 years now. But it's still going strong. EDIT: Here is a quick example (first one that was legible) that I could find. You'll notice that in MUMPS programming, all commands, functions, etc., are all shortened to a single character. S is for SET, $G means to "GET" $O is an "ORDER" ... which basically means to start a for loop, and then each nested iteration of a for loop is indented by an additional "." preceding the line. It's a pretty interesting and fun language to learn, but yeah... it's old. This was all done so that everything would fit neatly into 64-byte blocks for the old-school computers... Edited April 24 by 82-T/A 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duewester Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 The problem with vintage consoles is, well they're vintage. I love my Ti/99-4a but I have been experimenting with the PicoMite VGA. Uses a raspberry pi Pico a VGA monitor and a PS-2 keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) The PicoMite is an excellent choice - I’ve built two versions of the PicoMiteVGA https://geoffg.net/picomitevga.html The PicoMite is an extension of MicroMite Basic that has been running on various Microchip microcontrollers for well over a decade. The PicoMite was ported over to the Raspberry Pi Pico when many of Microchip controllers were hard to get during the chip shortage. Peter Mather led the project, ported the MMBasic interpreter to the Raspberry Pi Pico and wrote the hardware device drivers. Geoff Graham wrote the MMBasic interpreter and the manual. Mick Ames wrote the PIO compiler and its corresponding documentation. The PicoMite Basic has been constantly updated for the past 2.5 years to include many commands which were originally thought to be too complex for the Pico, such as VGA output, background sound output, sprites, 3D graphic commands. The timing critical PIO commands remain at the core of the PicoMite as with the previous MicroMites. There is an active community for the PicoMite and MicroMite at https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/ViewForum.php?FID=16 that Geoff Graham and Peter Mather participate in. Note there are two versions of the PicoMite 1. PicoMite outputs to a touchscreen TFT and is meant for embedded applications. Programming is done on another computer with a terminal emulator and connected thru USB. 2. PicoMiteVGA which outputs thru a VGA port and input thru a PS/2 keyboard. This is a standalone boot to Basic computer. Both versions can save programs on the built-in Flash on a Pico, or saved to an SD/Micro SD card formatted in FAT16 or FAT32 Edited May 5 by Forrest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) Today, a third version of the PicoMite was introduced - the WebMite https://geoffg.net/webmite.html The WebMite is similiar to #1, except it runs on a PicoW to interact with the web. As with all versions, a full manual (178 pages) is included. Edited May 5 by Forrest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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