model 2 D-pad: Something needs to be done.

[xhul]

Welcome =]

 

A BAD DESIGN

 

Let's start by acknowledging the fact that the D-pad on model 2 is poorly designed when it comes to diagonals.
There are of course a lot of games where that's not an issue at all, but when it comes to shmups or similar, that's actually a pretty big deal.
The main problem here is that such D-pad doesn't allow to press diagonals accurately in time-limited situations.
In other words, it requires an unforgiving precision when it comes to the thumb position, resulting in very poor performance when you have to move a unit diagonally fast enough.
Assuming a diagonal input is nothing more than 2 contacts at once, you often end up having only 1 of the 2 being registered.
If that doesn't make sense to you, pick any game where you can move a unit in 8 directions, try to perform basic circles at a reasonable speed, and you'll definitely know what i'm talking about.

 

MECHANICAL ISSUES

 

i believe 2 things are involved:

 

First of all, the D-pad is shaped as a cross, which obviously doesn't help.
That of course implies challengy movements with both the thumb and the wrist, to be sure both contacts are made at once.

 

Secondly, i think the cross itself is either not thick enough, or it's designed too deep inside the shell.
That's why sometimes, if your thumb is slightly misplaced, diagonal presses are actually blocked by the front shell, so the contacts simply don't occur.

 

IDEAS

 

External controllers are a thing of course, but as far as i'm concerned, that's not exactly appealing, for a handheld.
I would really love to see an actual diagonal-friendly D-pad on the lynx itself, and i want to believe i'm not the only one.
So ideally, some easily reproducible mod would be cool, assuming a prototype works to begin with.

 

The first idea that came to my mind was the addition of some kind of disk-shaped module, that basically goes above the cross.
I'm gonna try to check if such design would actually solve the core problems, and see if there's a practical way to attach a module.

 

Replacing the cross entirely is of course another option, though that would imply some obvious carving, and probably more physical restrictions.
I'll try to take a look at that as well.

 

More ideas welcome, of course.

 

I'll share my personal progress here, hoping i unlock enough time, and the project actually goes somewhere.
Stay tuned...

[Bratwurst]

A year or so ago I designed 3D printable parts to replace the d-pads in the Atari Jaguar line of controllers and they've been pretty well received. I would do the same for the Lynx II but I no longer have one. If anyone wants to loan me theirs I'm sure I could cook up something nice to offer for everyone.

 

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/320157-revising-the-jaguar-controller-d-pad/

 

[sirlynxalot]

Maybe something like that first version of the lynx 1 that had the circle as part of the dpad?  That's not bad imo

[agradeneu]

Probably not the best d pad but I have no big problems doing diagonal inputs

Pro tip: Just use the full size of your thump.

[agradeneu]

17 minutes ago, sirlynxalot said:

Maybe something like that first version of the lynx 1 that had the circle as part of the dpad?  That's not bad imo

Gameboy/SNES/NES/Playstation/Dreamcast have cross shape design too.

All digital dpads work the same: keep pressing both directions for diagonal input.

 

The ergonomics of the Lynx Dpad is a bit chunky, the molds are nice for 4 way input, but less so for diagonals. 

 

Thump can hurt a bit after long playing sessions. 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by agradeneu

[sirlynxalot]

10 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Gameboy/NES/Playstation/Dreamcast have cross shape design too.

All digital dpads work the same: keep pressing both directions for diagonal input.

I agree I haven't really had a problem with the lynx 2 dpad. But it seems it is unacceptable to the OP so just offering a suggestion.

[agradeneu]

7 minutes ago, sirlynxalot said:

I agree I haven't really had a problem with the lynx 2 dpad. But it seems it is unacceptable to the OP so just offering a suggestion.

Some Lynx 1 have a circular shape dpad, slightly more comfy and less noisy.   

But not a game changer. 

[+madman]

I've had a Lynx since the 90's, can't say I've really had complaints w/the d-pad. If enough people agree w/the OP I'd be happy to send a spare Lynx II to the sausage man to work on a d-pad replacement.

[xhul]

15 hours ago, Bratwurst said:

A year or so ago I designed 3D printable parts to replace the d-pads in the Atari Jaguar line of controllers and they've been pretty well received. I would do the same for the Lynx II but I no longer have one. If anyone wants to loan me theirs I'm sure I could cook up something nice to offer for everyone.

 

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/320157-revising-the-jaguar-controller-d-pad/

You seem to have done a great job with the jag, that looks wonderful =]
I believe the pivot issue you mentioned on that topic also applies to the lynx, more specifically an insufficient angle when 2 directions are pressed at once.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to do something similar on the lynx though, considering the cross-shaped cut on the front shell.
I also have yet to check if the cross itself can be easily removed or not.

 

8 hours ago, sirlynxalot said:

Maybe something like that first version of the lynx 1 that had the circle as part of the dpad?  That's not bad imo

My first lynx back in the days was one of those.
Unfortunately, i wasn't playing games where it matters a lot at the time, so i can't really say how better it was.

 

8 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Probably not the best d pad but I have no big problems doing diagonal inputs

Pro tip: Just use the full size of your thump.

Honestly, even if being a "thumb master", some diagonals still fail from time to time (1 of the 2 contacts ignored).
Of course, when bullets are slow, and|or come at you from far enough, you'll always have time to adjust the unit position afterwards.
But in the high stages of sky raider redux for example, it becomes obvious that pretty much all deaths are due to wrong thumb positions, instead of bad choices as they should.

 

8 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Thump can hurt a bit after long playing sessions.

Exactly.
Pressing "diagonals" more than you should shows that there's a design flaw, at least in my opinion.
That's of course assuming single contacts are fine to begin with.

Edited April 1, 2023 by xhul

[agradeneu]

The dpads of Lynx and Jaguar are absoletely fine.

 

Iam testing our game Jumping at shadows during desigin back and forth with a DS4 (PS4) and a Jagpad and the Jagpad works splendid.

 

The Lynx works just fine as well. I have not a huge thump and I play with the Lynx like with any other systems and their pads.

 

Sorry to disagree, but I played pads in all shape and forms and I can't confirm any serious issue with the Lynx input.

 

Diagonals with a pad are always less precise, by design. They are optimized for the main four directions. Just open any pad and you will find only 4 contacts and a rubber overlay.

 

Keep in mind that mods are not perfect too, quite the opposite:

 

ZPH played our JAS game with a modded Jagpad and the stick caused accidental diagonal inputs when the game requires only clean left and right.

 

The games were made to work with the original hardware, and still are btw. 

 

E.G. Odynexus, a shmup, works fine with the Lynx dpad, I can confirm.

 

 

[agradeneu]

7 hours ago, madman said:

I've had a Lynx since the 90's, can't say I've really had complaints w/the d-pad. If enough people agree w/the OP I'd be happy to send a spare Lynx II to the sausage man to work on a d-pad replacement.

How about a special dpad for every game?

 

From a game designing POV, we only test original hardware or repros, the gear that 90% of the audience play their games with. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by agradeneu

[xhul]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

The Lynx works just fine as well. I have not a huge thump and I play with the Lynx like with any other systems and their pads.

 

Sorry to disagree, but I played pads in all shape and forms and I can't confirm any serious issue with the Lynx input.

No need to be sorry.
All i can say is that i played tons of japanese arcade shmups with a saturn model 2 controller, and failing diagonals simply don't happen, ever, even when stoned.
That's a basic 4 contacts D-pad as well, and in my opinion the best example of mechanical optimisation.

 

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Diagonals with a pad are always less precise, by design. They are optimized for the main four directions. Just open any pad and you will find only 4 contacts and a rubber overlay.

Of course they are, but i believe that shouldn't mean the mechanical part of the D-pad doesn't allow to make both contacts more or less easier.

 

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Keep in mind that mods are not perfect too, quite the opposite:

Absolutely, it's always easy to screw up.

 

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

The games were made to work with the original hardware, and still are btw.

Yes, though in my opinion, it's sad that some games were made easier just because the hardware is messy.
That's a problem when it comes to highscore sharing though, depending on how ethical we want to be.

 

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

E.G. Odynexus, a shmup, works fine with the Lynx dpad, I can confirm.

I have some failing diagonals on each gameplay.
Completing the demo without dying isn't hard though, but in my case it's only because it's forgiving enough so that i can adjust the ship's position in time, after a failed diagonal occurred.
However, i haven't tried yet, but doing a full kill run without dying because of the D-pad might definitely be another story.
To tell the truth, odynexus is one of those titles so great it totally deserves a better D-pad, and i'm not afraid to say it =]

 

#####

 

Alright, so i started to check the hardware.
First of all, the cross module can be removed easily, that's encouraging.
I started some tests without the front shell, to see how far it's involved, and it's not any better.
Who would have thought the lynx 2 test program would have been handy one day =]
Next step, testing different shapes, and maybe temporarily alter the cross module a bit.

Edited April 1, 2023 by xhul

[agradeneu]

Well, the Saturn is a quite a reference for shmups lol. I agree that bullet hell shmups require 360 degree precision, so they are best played with analogue sticks.

 

For a Lynx shmup, precise movements and are done by using the main directions. Imo it should be more about clever and effective positioning of your ship  than fancy evasive manouvers. Only use diagonals when far away form bullets to get to a better position, then do the fine work with main directions.

 

I use the same play style for PSP shmups as the pad is not great for diagionals too and the ergonomics are worse than Lynx. 

 

Needless to say, design follows limitations of hardware. 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by agradeneu

[Fadest]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

The dpads of Lynx and Jaguar are absoletely fine.

 

Iam testing our game Jumping at shadows during desigin back and forth with a DS4 (PS4) and a Jagpad and the Jagpad works splendid.

 

Do you use the DS4 on Jaguar via an adapter, or on PC with an emulator ?

[agradeneu]

35 minutes ago, Fadest said:

Do you use the DS4 on Jaguar via an adapter, or on PC with an emulator ?

emulator

 

[sirlynxalot]

I wonder if the lynx 2 pad is giving people grief because it is too big so you have to move your thumb over it too much instead of basically leaving it in the center and tilting it.  In that case I wonder if you can take the GBA dpad and just tape it on top of the lynx dpad and maybe be able to trigger the directions with less thumb movement.

[xhul]

I tested multiple pressure locations using the lynx 2 test program, and something ended up bothering me.
Sometimes, you can clearly see the membrane pressed enough, and it makes a convincing sound, but one of the contacts fails anyway.
I guess it was time to see "what lies beneath", so i risked unclipping the membrane, an unknown territory for me.
Looking at the circuit, something became pretty clear.

 

Let's take a look at the north-east corner for example.
Green means a successful contact, red a failure, and the grey circle symbolises the pressure.
Keep in mind that's a simplified representation, just so you get the idea.

 

On the lynx, that would look like this:

 

Now, with the exact same pressure, here is how it would look using a more reasonable design, such as on the saturn controller:

 

Please let me know if i'm wrong to believe that makes a significant difference.

[Bratwurst]

5 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Keep in mind that mods are not perfect too, quite the opposite:

 

ZPH played our JAS game with a modded Jagpad and the stick caused accidental diagonal inputs when the game requires only clean left and right.

First I've heard of this issue, if I'm not approached with criticism, I can't modify/improve designs. But of the people I've heard from who have used my d-pad replacements the feedback has been positive. Certainly there could be room for improvement in what I've come up with, just as it would be folly to assert that the designs Atari went with originally are above reproach.

[Bratwurst]

37 minutes ago, xhul said:

On the lynx, that would look like this:

Now, with the exact same pressure, here is how it would look using a more reasonable design, such as on the saturn controller:

 

I haven't found a picture of the interior of the Lynx II d-pad contacts yet, but of what I've seen of the Lynx I PCB, those contacts are interlaced like the bottom illustration (IE, the Saturn style layout.)

[xhul]

39 minutes ago, Bratwurst said:

I haven't found a picture of the interior of the Lynx II d-pad contacts yet, but of what I've seen of the Lynx I PCB, those contacts are interlaced like the bottom illustration (IE, the Saturn style layout.)

On my model 2, they are exactly like on my first drawing, a basic split disk.

And if what you're saying about the model 1 is true, then that's a nasty move from atari.

It's like "let's give them a cross-shaped D-pad, and while we're at it, let's save some money on the contacts, they only play puzzle games anyway".

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, xhul said:

I tested multiple pressure locations using the lynx 2 test program, and something ended up bothering me.
Sometimes, you can clearly see the membrane pressed enough, and it makes a convincing sound, but one of the contacts fails anyway.
I guess it was time to see "what lies beneath", so i risked unclipping the membrane, an unknown territory for me.
Looking at the circuit, something became pretty clear.

 

Let's take a look at the north-east corner for example.
Green means a successful contact, red a failure, and the grey circle symbolises the pressure.
Keep in mind that's a simplified representation, just so you get the idea.

 

On the lynx, that would look like this:

 

Now, with the exact same pressure, here is how it would look using a more reasonable design, such as on the saturn controller:

 

Please let me know if i'm wrong to believe that makes a significant difference.

How you measure the pressure?

 

I mean, you just assume the same exact pressure.

 

BTW the bigger Lynx pad needs a wider area of pressure to make both contacts work. Thus you need to use more of your thumb to put the correct pressure on.

 

Imo a matter of slightly adapting to the bigger Lynx dpad. I have not really huge hands btw. 

 

Is this matter really that urgent to mess with the design of the Lynx? 

 

I don't think so. It is more likely to make the system worse, just like most tuners tend to mess up classic cars.  

 

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, Bratwurst said:

First I've heard of this issue, if I'm not approached with criticism, I can't modify/improve designs. But of the people I've heard from who have used my d-pad replacements the feedback has been positive. Certainly there could be room for improvement in what I've come up with, just as it would be folly to assert that the designs Atari went with originally are above reproach.

He was using the clicky stick mod, so he said.

 

I recommended to him not to use this mod for our game as he was constantly dashing in the wrong direction, diagonally instead of left/right. 

 

The issue here is simple: People are sold on mods to beleive they are perfect or better than the standard pad for any game, and that is not true. While the stick is better for games like Raiden, it is def. worse for platform games that require precise movements in 4 main directions. 

 

Same with some blue tooth mods: It can add input lag that could make the game play worse than it would on standard hardware.

 

For users,  I recommend to stick to the original hardware, as there can be problems with mods and then it is not the fault of the game. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

1 hour ago, sirlynxalot said:

  In that case I wonder if you can take the GBA dpad and just tape it on top of the lynx dpad and maybe be able to trigger the directions with less thumb movement.

Sounds like a really bad idea.

[Bratwurst]

22 minutes ago, xhul said:

On my model 2, they are exactly like on my first drawing, a basic split disk.

And if what you're saying about the model 1 is true, then that's a nasty move from atari.

It's like "let's give them a cross-shaped D-pad, and while we're at it, let's save some money on the contacts, they only play puzzle games anyway".

As a blind guess, I'd assume Epyx designed the original PCB, and Atari later contracted another company (or did it in-house) to re-design it into the Lynx II form factor, and whatever team was involved wasn't as attentive to detail as Epyx would have been.

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, xhul said:

I tested multiple pressure locations using the lynx 2 test program, and something ended up bothering me.
Sometimes, you can clearly see the membrane pressed enough, and it makes a convincing sound, but one of the contacts fails anyway.
I guess it was time to see "what lies beneath", so i risked unclipping the membrane, an unknown territory for me.
Looking at the circuit, something became pretty clear.

 

Let's take a look at the north-east corner for example.
Green means a successful contact, red a failure, and the grey circle symbolises the pressure.
Keep in mind that's a simplified representation, just so you get the idea.

 

On the lynx, that would look like this:

 

Now, with the exact same pressure, here is how it would look using a more reasonable design, such as on the saturn controller:

 

Please let me know if i'm wrong to believe that makes a significant difference.

When pressed down, the small metallic discs are either closing the circuit or not, there is not really a "grey area" for digital pads, it's on or off. 

So it does not matter if the grey circle in your schematics covers the central area, as long as the metallic disc is pressed down enough to close the contacts. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by agradeneu