Does anyone actually pay $20 for ROMs?

[CapitanClassic]

23 minutes ago, JetSetIlly said:

The thing is, Andrew's right because Australia has a law that allows for Resale Royalties on artworks. It's not clear to me if video games are covered but they do seem to be because the Australian scheme specifically lists "digital works". However, it might be dependent on how it was sold and what they buyer thought they were buying.

Unless the US Copyright office has changed their position from ten years ago, I don’t think so (maybe Boulderdash could be argued, limited-run, but doesn’t go through an “art-market”)

Quote

The American first sale doctrine would not, in our opinion, interfere with the introduction of an Artist’s Resale Right. European copyright law too recognises the exhaustion of the distribution right after the first sale of a copy of the copyright protected work. The exhaustion of the right means that the author of the work no longer has the right to restrict or control the further circulation and distribution of that particular copy.

 

[JetSetIlly]

8 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

Unless the US Copyright office has changed their position from ten years ago, I don’t think so (maybe Boulderdash could be argued, limited-run, but doesn’t go through an “art-market”)

Thank you for that link, it's an interesting find.

 

I was wondering what was meant by "art market" but the document states in section 6 that: "In the UK, the Artist’s Resale Right covers works sold on the secondary market with the involvement of art market professionals, which includes auction houses, art galleries and art dealers. It does not cover works being sold for the first time". It's not clear whether this includes eBay.

 

Either way, Andrew has identified an interesting moral question. As that document explains, resale royalties do not interfere with first sale rights - the artist cannot prevent a sale from happening although can declare a right to be given preferable terms of sale. The Resale Royalty is simply a cut (5%) of the sale price. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[MrTrust]

5 hours ago, JetSetIlly said:

Either way, Andrew has identified an interesting moral question. As that document explains, resale royalties do not interfere with first sale rights - the artist cannot prevent a sale from happening although can declare a right to be given preferable terms of sale. The Resale Royalty is simply a cut (5%) of the sale price. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

Like everything else that's been brought up, it's not a question of whether it's reasonable or not.

 

As a buyer, I'm just not going to agree to these terms, because I don't want to deal with the headache.  If I end up in a situation where I need or want to sell off my video game stuff, I just want to take it to the local resale or throw it up on eBay, get the cash, and be done with it.  I will not spend more than maybe $20 on a game I do not outright own, and even then, it's got to be something I want quite a bit and am confident I will get my $20 in a hurry.

 

Also, it just doesn't solve any problem.  If I'm a scalper, and I buy a game at $50 and sells it for $500, having to cough up $25 isn't going to make scalping any less of an attractive proposition.  Hell, I'll just pass it along to the buyer.  If he wants Boulder Dash enough to pay $500 for it, he'll pay $526, and I'll still get my $450 return.  And what does the creator get?  Somebody's got to collect and disburse those royalties, and they're going to get their rake of it, so you're going to end up with a little over $20.  Is that really going to take the sting out of watching me walk away with $450 on a game you sold at a $5 margin?  If that's the case, why not just charge $75 for the game up front and skip the middle man?

 

All this really does is create a hassle for regular buyers who might need or want to sell their stuff somewhere down the road, and create a perverse incentive for producers not to meet demand, which is enough of a problem already.

[JetSetIlly]

25 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

 

Like everything else that's been brought up, it's not a question of whether it's reasonable or not.

 

As a buyer, I'm just not going to agree to these terms, because I don't want to deal with the headache.  If I end up in a situation where I need or want to sell off my video game stuff, I just want to take it to the local resale or throw it up on eBay, get the cash, and be done with it.  I will not spend more than maybe $20 on a game I do not outright own, and even then, it's got to be something I want quite a bit and am confident I will get my $20 in a hurry.

But you do own it outright. You can sell it to whoever you like for whatever money you want. You could even destroy it if you wanted, because it's your property.

 

The only difference is that if it's an artwork (which is quite a high threshold to attain) and it's sold for over a $1000 (or euros, or whatever) and the sale was "public" then you may owe 5% resale royalty to the artist if they want to pursue it.

 

31 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

 Somebody's got to collect and disburse those royalties, and they're going to get their rake of it

In the existing systems we're discussing here, there is no rake.

 

 

[Jag_Mag]

7 hours ago, MrTrust said:

 

Like everything else that's been brought up, it's not a question of whether it's reasonable or not.

 

As a buyer, I'm just not going to agree to these terms, because I don't want to deal with the headache.  If I end up in a situation where I need or want to sell off my video game stuff, I just want to take it to the local resale or throw it up on eBay, get the cash, and be done with it.  I will not spend more than maybe $20 on a game I do not outright own, and even then, it's got to be something I want quite a bit and am confident I will get my $20 in a hurry.

 

Also, it just doesn't solve any problem.  If I'm a scalper, and I buy a game at $50 and sells it for $500, having to cough up $25 isn't going to make scalping any less of an attractive proposition.  Hell, I'll just pass it along to the buyer.  If he wants Boulder Dash enough to pay $500 for it, he'll pay $526, and I'll still get my $450 return.  And what does the creator get?  Somebody's got to collect and disburse those royalties, and they're going to get their rake of it, so you're going to end up with a little over $20.  Is that really going to take the sting out of watching me walk away with $450 on a game you sold at a $5 margin?  If that's the case, why not just charge $75 for the game up front and skip the middle man?

 

All this really does is create a hassle for regular buyers who might need or want to sell their stuff somewhere down the road, and create a perverse incentive for producers not to meet demand, which is enough of a problem already.

Agreed 100%,what's being purposed is bad for the gamer at the end.I'm a dev and sometimes you just take the good with the bad for the gamers.Some of what's being suggested is screwing over gamers,that's not acceptable,you don't punish the good for the bad.This is mine 

If it were up to me I'd sell carts and charge $8 per rom

Edited July 15, 2023 by Jag_Mag

[JetSetIlly]

This entire conversation is bizarre. I'm sorry I got involved in it.

[Jag_Mag]

I don't think it's bizarre,a few members standing ground and pointing out things is good.They do not accept what a handful of devs say.That's a good thing for gamers

Edited July 15, 2023 by Jag_Mag

[Greg2600]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:31 AM, Mayhem said:

Maybe it's because this is the AtariAge forum, or because it's specifically the 2600 scene itself, or everyone in the US has a higher budget expectation, but there's no way I'd pay $20 for a 2600 ROM. The closest I can compare to is the C64 homebrew scene that I'm firmly embedded in (hell, I review games "professionally" right now from it!), which has as many, if not more regular releases overall. Maybe it's the competition then, but assuming a game isn't free, the average price being asked for a C64 download is usually a few dollars (I say $ because a lot of releases are done through itch.io and regardless of where you are in the world, you get charged in US dollars).

 

The higher quality stuff, or games that often end up also being released on physical media may go for $8-10. The absolutely brilliant, magical massive JRPG Briley Witch was sold at a price point of $10 for example, and well worth it, SJA could quite possibly have charged more. In fact there's only ONE C64 homebrew game I'm aware of that costs $20 to download and that's Sam's Journey. AKA one of the greatest 8-bit titles of the last ten years. So with all that to compare with, when I saw the announcements that certain 2600 ROMs were going to be sold at $20 I was shaking my head and thinking nah, way too much, I'd much rather pay the $50 or thereabouts for the entire physical product instead. ROMs wise, if I did, $5-10 is much more a sweet spot of expectation.

 

Thing is, you can resell a physical game, I think you'd have an incredibly hard time reselling a ROM. Because well, you could sell it countless times.

Wow, I'm definitely missing out, really haven't followed the C64 homebrew scene that well.  One reason for that, and yes this will sound quite whiny, but I have about a hairlength of patience for working with today's SD/flash carts!  ha ha ha.  The ones from batari, Krikzz, SainT, terra-onion, etc., I can manage.  I have the 1541-Ultimate II and even then it can be a royal pain to load the games.  Yes, I know, shut up.  Recommended site to keep track best?  I'm on lemon64 but rarely check it, it's quite voluminous. 

On 7/14/2023 at 8:34 AM, juansolo said:

I suspect this brings us to the inevitability that the value of an item is what someone is prepared to pay for it. So if a ROM is $20 and it sells, then it is worth $20. If it wasn't, people wouldn't buy it and the seller would have the choice of not making any money or reducing the price. So in answer to the OP question of 'does anyone actually buy $20 ROMS' the answer simply is yes.

That was the point I made, that I'm okay if a programmer releases the rom at $20, and then after it's out awhile, discounts.  But again this is if a physical cart isn't possible. 

 

.....

 

I think this thread really boils down to this, some believe that a ROM purchase amount is there solely for capitalistic transaction.  To me it's more about "leaving a tip" for the programmer, a la patreon once was.  Again, you cannot "live" off these sales.  I would surmise the same could be said for physical releases, and most homebrew hardware we see out there.  The labor can never be close to compensated.  You have to want to do it for the community, and your place in "history."  I just view ROM buying as a way of "tipping" the dev, which you can elect to do on itch.io if you like.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Greg2600

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

Yes, I've payed $20 for roms plenty of times. Especially if that's the only way I can play a certain game on my flashcart, then I'll gladly pay it. $20 is about my limit though.

 

These days I'm starting to care less and less about CIB.. Sure I love em as much as anyone else here, but it starts to get very expensive and I'm running out of room. It's about the game though, so a ROM is good enough for me and just as long as I can play the game, that's all that really matters. I'm grateful authors here are coming around to the idea of selling their games digitally. It's the future, after all. 👍

[Mayhem]

I'm glad to see despite it being several days since I've been able to return to this thread, it's remained civil. At least we are discussing it mostly maturely, you should see the vitriol and complaints about people having to pay more than 99 cents for a mobile title in general...!

 

I guess the point I didn't make in my previous post, and somewhat alluded to by a couple of others, is that while a $20 ROM may sell, you might actually make more money (sales x price) by reducing the cost. The good old bell curve. Sometimes it isn't about what your perceived worth is, it's the perceived worth to everyone else.

 

On 7/15/2023 at 11:54 PM, Greg2600 said:

Wow, I'm definitely missing out, really haven't followed the C64 homebrew scene that well.  One reason for that, and yes this will sound quite whiny, but I have about a hairlength of patience for working with today's SD/flash carts!  ha ha ha.  The ones from batari, Krikzz, SainT, terra-onion, etc., I can manage.  I have the 1541-Ultimate II and even then it can be a royal pain to load the games.  Yes, I know, shut up.  Recommended site to keep track best?  I'm on lemon64 but rarely check it, it's quite voluminous.

IndieRetroNews, Fusion R Gamer, or even subscribe to the PDF version of Zzap!64 and stare at my mug reviewing games... https://www.patreon.com/zzapmagazine

[tkarner]

Here's another way of looking at it. How much does a developer get to keep after a $40 cartridge sale, after the cost of building, printing, shipping, etc? $5? Now how much does a developer get to keep after a $20 download? Almost all of it. Sure there's some overhead, like web hosting, electricity, but it's minimal compared to manufacturing a cartidge.

 

So if a seller (in any industry, not just video games) were to tell you, "Due to a form factor change, we're now able to sell you widget X for 50% off! What a bargain!", but you know the form factor change increased their profits by 400%, it would seem disingenuous.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

As far as I understand the situation, the price is political. If the digital downloads would become too cheap, that would significantly harm the sales of the AA store. And as long as Al is selling physical copies of our games, we developers have no interest to hurt Al and AtariAge. Plus lots of other reasons. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Thomas Jentzsch

[+johnnywc]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

As far as I understand the situation, the price is political. If the digital downloads would become too cheap, that would significantly harm the sales of the AA store. And as long as Al is selling physical copies of our games, we developers have no interest to hurt Al and AtariAge. Plus lots of other reasons. 

Thanks for reiterating that TJ - I mentioned it above as well.  It's not so much a political decision but a community decision.  This thread is very informational and interesting but I think sometimes it seems we're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, applying "real world" economics, pricing, sales, etc. to our niche market.  Would I ever expect Target to work with Best Buy when determining a price to help Best Buy sell a certain product that they have too much stock of?  Of course not.  The pricing for the ROMs was set as a joint decision between Al and myself at a point that would be beneficial to both of us AND the community.  Champ Games had numerous requests to offer or ROMs in digital form and we obliged, taking the time to put together a website, update product pages, develop a registration workflow, process transactions, etc.  The main reasons expressed to us were (1) people don't have room for physical copies, (2) they didn't want to spend $50 - $60 on a boxed copy and (3) they wanted to have a way to support Champ Games and our development (both current and future).  To that end, I think we succeeded.  Additionally, we also put in our our 'coupon redemption' so we weren't double-dipping by offering 50% off a ROM if you bought the physical copy from AtariAge (which hopefully answers any disingenuous claims against us).

 

Now, as I also mention above, since things are changing (AtariAge will no longer be selling our physical games), if we end up self-publishing Champ Games will have more flexibility to set prices according to market demand. 

 

Thanks again to all that support our efforts and thanks for all the feedback; both are appreciated! 

 

John

 

 

[tkarner]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

If the digital downloads would become too cheap, that would significantly harm the sales of the AA store.

That's an interesting point I did not consider.

[roadrunner]

 

 

[Greg2600]

21 hours ago, Mayhem said:

IndieRetroNews, Fusion R Gamer, or even subscribe to the PDF version of Zzap!64 and stare at my mug reviewing games... https://www.patreon.com/zzapmagazine

Cool, I do check IndieRetroNews when I remember, on occasion.  I also get a lot of 8/16-bit homebrew pop up on Twitter feed. 

[+Cafeman]

Too expensive, My limit is 8.99 for 8-track or cassette. 19.99 for ROMs.  

[+johnnywc]

6 minutes ago, Cafeman said:

Too expensive, My limit is 8.99 for 8-track or cassette. 19.99 for ROMs.  

Lucky you, we're having our "save a penny" sale starting next month!  All $20 ROMs will be $19.99!*  

 

*limited time only.  Limit one penny saved per order.  Cannot be used in conjunction with any other offer.  Penny to be mailed after delivery of ROM, please allow 6 - 8 weeks for delivery.

[Albert]

2 minutes ago, johnnywc said:

Lucky you, we're having our "save a penny" sale starting next month!  All $20 ROMs will be $19.99!*  

 

*limited time only.  Limit one penny saved per order.  Cannot be used in conjunction with any other offer.  Penny to be mailed after delivery of ROM, please allow 6 - 8 weeks for delivery.

Much to my amazement, Columbia House is still a thing!!!

 

 ..Al

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, Albert said:

Much to my amazement, Columbia House is still a thing!!!

 

 ..Al

I still remember my BMG membership number!  Haven't used that service since probably the late 90s.

[+sramirez2008]

2 hours ago, Albert said:

Much to my amazement, Columbia House is still a thing!!!

 

 ..Al

Lol! Seemed like all of the students at my college were ordering from Columbia House. Lots of CDs delivered to the dorms and no doubt, never paid for when the students went back home. 

[+Nathan Strum]

8 hours ago, Albert said:

Much to my amazement, Columbia House is still a thing!!!

Wow! Not only that they exist... but that someone is actually still producing DVDs!

 

I bought a fair number of 2600 games through the Columbia Video Game Club. Mostly Tigervision titles, I think. (Flyers can be seen here.)

[+GoldLeader]

9 hours ago, Albert said:

Much to my amazement, Columbia House is still a thing!!!

 

 ..Al

 

No way!

 

Waitaminute!   Where's all the albums?   😆

[Albert]

4 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

Waitaminute!   Where's all the albums?   😆

I was amused to see it was all DVDs and not even Blu-Rays, and no music at all.

 

 ..Al

[+GoldLeader]

3 minutes ago, Albert said:

I was amused to see it was all DVDs and not even Blu-Rays, and no music at all

 

 ..Al

 

Yeah,

 

Some titles I've never heard of there (Not The Deep,  but The SuperDeep! (heh))  but also some good stuff (The new D& D movie)...Anyway some of them are Blu ray if you actually click on them.  I wonder if this is a case where someone just bought the name to cash in on nostalgia?