The new Atari 2600+ w/HDMI out and 2600/7800 support

[RevEng]

44 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

True, but IIRC someone "optimized" the HMOVE blanks away.  

Also, there were missing undocumented opcodes, which did impact some homebrews.

 

Despite that, i agree that it's a shame the ASIC was lost/abandoned.

[Zonie]

1 hour ago, ls650 said:

I like this, but:  This product is only available for shipping in the United States.

Too bad.

Really?

 

Somebody needs some cheese...

 

 

RTTFTBIOTLP

 

[+LS650]

2 minutes ago, Zonie said:

Really?

Somebody needs some cheese...

RTTFTBIOTLP

Read the ...  Yeah, I have no idea what that means.

[Bakasama]

1 hour ago, ls650 said:

I like this, but:  This product is only available for shipping in the United States.

Too bad.

 Could that be bought though Amazon.ca? I remember seeing being offered on Amazon.uk and Amazon.dk

[chad5200]

1 hour ago, RevEng said:

Also, there were missing undocumented opcodes, which did impact some homebrews.

 

Despite that, i agree that it's a shame the ASIC was lost/abandoned.

Right.

 

Fix the HMOVE issue.  Fix the undocumented opcodes.  Call the chip the "Vendel Chip" and Atarians all over the world will celebrate.

 

[+bent_pin]

2 hours ago, ls650 said:

I like this, but:  This product is only available for shipping in the United States.

Too bad.

Check Amazon. I have not looked personally, but other users have mentioned that Amazon is taking pre-orders in at least 3 countries. 

[ledzep]

2 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

True, but IIRC someone "optimized" the HMOVE blanks away.  

 

I've been thinking of getting one of those modded Flashback 2s and I read somewhere that the original version was so accurate that there was a lot of flickering (with Lunar Lander?) and so there was a revision that fixed that (though it sounds like the games were revised, not the hardware?).  Is that what you're referring to?  I see on Wikipedia that the Flashback 2 was released in 2005, there was a revision (no date) and then there was a Flashback 2+ in 2010.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Flashback_series

 

"Some games, such as Lunar Lander, exhibit some flicker. This is due to limitations in the original Atari 2600 hardware, which the Flashback 2 reproduces accurately. Vendel noted that the games exclusive to the Flashback 2 were programmed under a strict schedule. For a revision of the Flashback 2, Vendel commissioned developers to tweak these games in order to reduce flickering."

 

I'm just wondering which version of this I should get modded from that site listed earlier, or if it's even possible to distinguish.

 

It's just amazing to me that in this day and age something as primitive as a 2600, even with some custom chips, should be this goddamn hard to accurately reproduce with modern chips and tech or with a software emulator and gigabytes of RAM.  I can only imagine how difficult it would be to re-release the old handheld Mattel Football game, hahaahaa.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

15 minutes ago, ledzep said:

) and then there was a Flashback 2+ in 2010.

I've been thinking of getting one of those modded Flashback 2s and I read somewhere that the original version was so accurate that there was a lot of flickering (with Lunar Lander?) and so there was a revision that fixed that (though it sounds like the games were revised, not the hardware?).  Is that what you're referring to? 

No, I mean the black bars at the left size. These are called HMOVE blanks because they are the result of moving e.g. sprites horizontally.

[chad5200]

12 minutes ago, ledzep said:

I'm just wondering which version of this I should get modded from that site listed earlier, or if it's even possible to distinguish.

According to this link about the Flashback 2:

https://flashback2.com/pc-board-revisions/

 

You want a Rev. C.  You do NOT want the 2010 version which is referred to as Rev. X and "features a counterfeit PC board".

 

"Rev. C features a reduced-size PCB, which was designed to simplify installing a cartridge port (as described below). There are no changes to the unit’s functionality; the Revision C chip corrected some Hmove incompatibility issues, but still lacked several 65xx Illegal OpCodes and support for FE bankswitching."

 

Rev. C is the best version of the Flashback 2.  Oh to dream that someone would take this and run with it in this modern world.

 

[Atariboy]

Even with the Flashback 2 chip, we'd now face a different and significant problem in upscaling video to HD, dealing with all the different issues of various 2600 games that give upscalers headaches, and so on.

 

I'm not sure that the Atari 2600+ would be better off. We'd of just traded problems for new problems.

[+sramirez2008]

46 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

I've been thinking of getting one of those modded Flashback 2s and I read somewhere that the original version was so accurate that there was a lot of flickering (with Lunar Lander?) and so there was a revision that fixed that (though it sounds like the games were revised, not the hardware?).  Is that what you're referring to?  I see on Wikipedia that the Flashback 2 was released in 2005, there was a revision (no date) and then there was a Flashback 2+ in 2010.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Flashback_series

 

"Some games, such as Lunar Lander, exhibit some flicker. This is due to limitations in the original Atari 2600 hardware, which the Flashback 2 reproduces accurately. Vendel noted that the games exclusive to the Flashback 2 were programmed under a strict schedule. For a revision of the Flashback 2, Vendel commissioned developers to tweak these games in order to reduce flickering."

 

I'm just wondering which version of this I should get modded from that site listed earlier, or if it's even possible to distinguish.

 

It's just amazing to me that in this day and age something as primitive as a 2600, even with some custom chips, should be this goddamn hard to accurately reproduce with modern chips and tech or with a software emulator and gigabytes of RAM.  I can only imagine how difficult it would be to re-release the old handheld Mattel Football game, hahaahaa.

I don’t have the 2+. The game flickers but I don’t think it’s that bad. 
<Edit> Looks worse on the video than it does in reality.

[CapitanClassic]

3 hours ago, Atariboy said:

Even with the Flashback 2 chip, we'd now face a different and significant problem in upscaling video to HD, dealing with all the different issues of various 2600 games that give upscalers headaches, and so on.

 

I'm not sure that the Atari 2600+ would be better off. We'd of just traded problems for new problems.

Indeed, this is an issue with many "official" games (Warlords). Several have issues with constant# of vertical lines. Old analog TVs were more tolerant, but the changing VSYNC may cause issues (like rolling/blanking) with newer digital TVs. I'm not even sure this issue could be fixed (without other tradeoffs, like additional lag of 2-3 frames) in hardware since it is a software issue.

[alex_79]

15 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

True, but IIRC someone "optimized" the HMOVE blanks away.  

 

15 hours ago, RevEng said:

Also, there were missing undocumented opcodes, which did impact some homebrews.

 

The address and data bus also have a different behavior compared to real hardware when internal accesses (TIA and RIOT) occur. This breaks compatibility with some games, e.g. those using additional ram.

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/336027-flashback2-bus-behaviour-vs-2600/?do=findComment&comment=5063689

 

12 hours ago, Atariboy said:

Even with the Flashback 2 chip, we'd now face a different and significant problem in upscaling video to HD, dealing with all the different issues of various 2600 games that give upscalers headaches, and so on.

Yes, an upscaler that is able to mimic a CRT behavior, (correct handling of progressive signal, tolerance to some off specs timing in sync, simulation of a screen roll instead of complete loss of signal when the sync is too off from specs), all while keeping lag to the minimum (not an easy task, I guess) is something that needs to be considered if someone wants to recreate a fully compatible 2600 that outputs an HDMI signal.

 

[ledzep]

11 hours ago, chad5200 said:

Rev. C is the best version of the Flashback 2.  Oh to dream that someone would take this and run with it in this modern world.

 

Yes, that would be the eventual hope.  I assume there is some form of this for the 7800?  And 5200?  I'm sure it's not easy to pull one of these off but aren't all three of those systems somewhat similar?  Meaning the research to get the 2600 hardware converted could at least partly be applied to the 7800, too?  No doubt I'm missing something about the guts of these things and what it takes to make an accurate FPGA based off original designs.  And I don't suppose Vendel's notes or schematics are available anywhere for the next person to take a shot at fixing the few missing bits that would make such an attempt totally accurate.  I mean, there seems to be a market for such a thing, haha.

[akator]

The 5200/8-bit computers are separate systems with different chips and capabilities, they only share the CPU.  They are incompatible with the 2600 and 7800. 

 

The 7800 can run 2600 games because it was designed that way.  The 7800 has some of the same components as the 2600 and the hardware detects the difference between a 7800 and 2600 cart. 

 

 

To have a console similar to the AFB2 that could run 2600, 5200/8-bit, and 7800 someone with serious computer engineering skills would have to recreate both the 7800 logic and special chips (which includes 2600 logic) and 5200/8-bit logic and special chips, then create a "7800 and 5200 on a chip."

 

Creating that custom chip and producing it is far from impossible, but it's not easy either.

 

That's where FPGA comes in.  Only the logic has to be programmed, then loaded into the FPGA for whichever system is needed.  The caveat is FPGAs aren't cheap.

 

For all those who really want all Atari consoles and computer in one device, that already exists with the MiST and MiSTer.

Edited August 26, 2023 by akator

[WaverBoy]

If Analogue would release a nostalgically designed woodgrainy FPGA console that covered the VCS, 5200, 7800, and 400/800, I’d be a happy man. They could call it the Analogue Av. And then, of course we’d need swanky new 2.4G wireless joysticks and paddles from 8BitDo. The ultimate Atari setup. I bet they’d sell out in no time flat.

Edited August 26, 2023 by WaverBoy

[BillDMatt]

19 hours ago, ls650 said:

I like this, but:  This product is only available for shipping in the United States.

Too bad.

why is this constantly being repeated? smh

 

International Availability

United Kingdom - Amazon

Australia - EB Games

New Zealand - EB Games

Austria - Games Only

Germany - Amazon

Switzerland - Game Legends

Spain - GAME

Poland - Euro

Benelux - Bol

Slovenia - Igabiba

Italy - Amazon

[alex_79]

1 hour ago, BillDMatt said:

why is this constantly being repeated? smh

Maybe because if you access the official site from outside the US it looks like this?

Sure, if you scroll down the page there's an "International Availability" entry you can click to get the international distributors, but I think that replacing that big red "This product is only available for shipping in the United States" note with something more informative would help a lot to avoid spreading that idea...

Edited August 26, 2023 by alex_79

[insertclevernamehere]

I'm increasingly turned on, not in a sexual way, by the 7800 support.  I don't have a 7800 and have considered getting one for a while but this might be the perfect alternative.  Now I know it won't likely play the more sophisticated 2600 homebrews but I was wondering what the expected compatibility with 7800 homebrews might be.  High compatibility would be important as there's not that many original run 7800 games and it seems to me, the 7800 homebrew scene is really taking off.

 

Also, what 7800 games will there be a problem playing with only a 1 button controller?

[82-T/A]

1 minute ago, insertclevernamehere said:

I'm increasingly turned on, not in a sexual way, by the 7800 support.  I don't have a 7800 and have considered getting one for a while but this might be the perfect alternative.  Now I know it won't likely play the more sophisticated 2600 homebrews but I was wondering what the expected compatibility with 7800 homebrews might be.  High compatibility would be important as there's not that many original run 7800 games and it seems to me, the 7800 homebrew scene is really taking off.

 

Also, what 7800 games will there be a problem playing with only a 1 button controller?

 

Ace of Aces, Choplifter, are two in particular that I'm looking forward to. Choplifter was always one of my favorites growing up. But I actually never played it on a 7800 as a kid, someone else had it on the Apple ][e or some other system from what I can remember. I do have it for the 7800... but only because it's so awesome.

[+LS650]

2 hours ago, BillDMatt said:

why is this constantly being repeated? smh

Gosh, maybe because I checked out some of those sites and they don't ship to Canada..?

 

Now I am the one SMH.

[Hawkeye68]

I'm perfectly happy with PC emulation, but looking forward to reviews/teardowns of the new CX 40+ joystick.  A really great and authentic replacement has been needed forever.

[+sramirez2008]

48 minutes ago, Hawkeye68 said:

I'm perfectly happy with PC emulation, but looking forward to reviews/teardowns of the new CX 40+ joystick.  A really great and authentic replacement has been needed forever.

I’ve purchased the CX40 replacements from Best Electronics and have been very happy with them. I picked up one when they first became available in 2018 and after about 6 months of play, I went ahead and ordered another three. You can read all about them here.

[+Living Room Arcade]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:50 PM, toddtmw said:

Thanks. Except for Homebrew, which (I assume) would mostly only work on original hardware (Unless it uses a legacy supported bank-switching method and not an undocumented "quirk" of the hardware, is there any reason to have a cartridge port? I have a real 2600 and I have a fair number of carts, but I never actually use them because it is too easy to run from a Raspberry Pi or a computer without having to go chase down physical cartridges. I have a Nintendo Switch and I do not buy ANY real cartridges because I don't want to deal with keeping track of them. That convenience is worth more to me than what I might be able to sell the cartridges for if I stop playing the game.

 

thanks.

 

@toddtmw But to give you a better reply relating to your original question, for your set up, looks like adding an R77 or 2600+ would add no new functionality that your RPi and original 2600 console don't already have (except that 2600+ can play 7800 carts).  I mean the RPi plays ROMS, the original console plays the carts, looks to me like you're all set.  And then some.  Hope that was helpful.  

Edited August 26, 2023 by Living Room Arcade

[BIGHMW]

When it comes to "OEM"-style sticks, I like the AtGames Flashback CX40-style sticks the best, unlike the others the shaft screws on and off for easier storage after gameplay and even though they break a bit during really aggressive play down the line, if you have a few in stock the shafts are easily replaceable. They also have more play, a bit more throw, and a slightly better response than the tried and true OG CX40s from the 80s

 

Of course NOTHING (and I mean NOTHING) beats a good third-party stick especially those from either RetroGameBoyz or the old Wico Command Control series or even the legendary Triga Command stick but when it comes to OEM and OEM-clone sticks nothing beats a Flashback stick.