2600+ w/7800 support

[juansolo]

7 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Not even close. You're looking at close to $400 for mister and Arcade compatibility is for shit. I get taht 7800 comapatibilty is good/great, but You can buy like 3-4 real 7800's for that price, or 1 real 7800 and a Retrotink and get much better results than a Mister.

Gotta call you out on this, sorry.

 

$400 for a MiSTer doesn't just get you a 7800 and 'poor' arcade emulation. It gets you multiple machine hardware level emulation. ie, as accurate as having the real thing. If you consider it's NeoGeo, MegaCD, PC Engine+CD and Amiga support alone, you can justify it's cost many times over, and that's just a fraction of what it can do. The arcade boards it supports continues to increase on a weekly basis as there are so many developers building new cores for it all the time.

 

It is the future of hardware preservation at this point in time. To compare it to software emulation is greatly missing the point. Also for a 7800 into a Tink to get better results, that 7800 would have to be outputting RGB, and then it'd be the same rather than better.

Edited August 23, 2023 by juansolo

[John Stamos Mullet]

3 hours ago, juansolo said:

Gotta call you out on this, sorry.

 

$400 for a MiSTer doesn't just get you a 7800 and 'poor' arcade emulation. It gets you multiple machine hardware level emulation. ie, as accurate as having the real thing. If you consider it's NeoGeo, MegaCD, PC Engine+CD and Amiga support alone, you can justify it's cost many times over, and that's just a fraction of what it can do. The arcade boards it supports continues to increase on a weekly basis as there are so many developers building new cores for it all the time.

 

It is the future of hardware preservation at this point in time. To compare it to software emulation is greatly missing the point. Also for a 7800 into a Tink to get better results, that 7800 would have to be outputting RGB, and then it'd be the same rather than better.

It is an extremely niche product that 99% of gamers have never heard of, it is bananas expensive, and its compatibility is a rollercoaster of great to terrible depending on the system you’re trying to emulate. 
 

also - half of the parts you need to make it work are constantly out of stock, so you have to wait months just to get it working. 
 

and the 7800 game drive flash cart has RGB out, so there goes that argument. 

[Eagle]

5 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

and the 7800 game drive flash cart has RGB out, so there goes that argument.

And it’s FPGA base on MiSTer

[John Stamos Mullet]

54 minutes ago, Eagle said:

And it’s FPGA base on MiSTer

And costs 1/4 of a mister. 
 

and isn’t nearly as difficult to buy

[RockLobster]

9 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Yes it does...

I've been unsuccessful with mine.   physical connection issue?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

16 minutes ago, RockLobster said:

I've been unsuccessful with mine.   physical connection issue?

Yes, in most cases this is why. I modified the cartridge sleeve on my personal 7800 to allow for my SC and all of my Tigervision games to seat down all the way and work now. But it isn't something I advise everyone to do or try. It is also possible your 7800 has the extra timing circuit in place and I believe that affects the SC operation as well.

 

 

[RockLobster]

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

It is an extremely niche product that 99% of gamers have never heard of

Well, the average person who enjoys "retrograming" hasn't heard of atariage.com either.  The MiSTer isn't for them.  We're talking about the cohorts here in this forum.

 

That 99% of gamers can continue to enjoy their stock Nintendo Classic, Atari Flashbacks or even a Retron or two.

 

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

it is bananas expensive

The MiSTer only requires the base DE-10 Nano board at $239 and a $20 RAM module.   You need nothing else but a microSD card to start playing.  OTOH, it's very possible $259 is expensive for you and that's ok.

 

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

its compatibility is a rollercoaster of great to terrible depending on the system you’re trying to emulate. 

It's ok to move the goal post sometimes if it furthers the discovery of a topic.  Few things in life are perfect.  Even the 7800 isn't.  But in the meanwhile, can you share a couple of the issues important to you enough to give you rollercoaster vibes?

 

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

also - half of the parts you need to make it work are constantly out of stock, so you have to wait months just to get it working. 

Well, unless you need more than 459 boards for your MiSTer from one of the most reliable electronic parts reseller/wholesaler around, you're good to go (see attached screenshot as of this writing).

 

Also, per the comment above about needing just the DE-10 Nano board and the RAM to run, please tell us what "half of the parts" mean?  What else other than the board and RAM do you need to run the 7800 or other cores?

 

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

and the 7800 game drive flash cart has RGB out, so there goes that argument.

As @Eagle pointed out about the 7800 Game Drive's pedigree...

 

1) The 7800GD is literally recreating chips needed for RGB out via an internal FPGA processor.   ...and surprise! that FPGA core is literally an almost copy&paste from the Atari 2600/7800 core by Kitrinx and others.   So yes, you're running a little piece of the MiSTer in your answer to NOT using the MiSTer even on a real 7800.

 

2) The 7800GD is fantastic (I'm still waiting for the next batch) but its RGB out implementation is technically "cheating".  You're not modifying your 7800's video out for RGB output.   Much like Krizz's RGB Blaster for the NES, it's literally recreating the video out from the FPU independent / external of the rest of the console.   It's why they even tell you that sometimes you have to reset it a couple of times or have issues when powering up the 7800 + game drive because the code on the game drive needs a few more ms to run first to be ready for the 7800.

 

----

 

BTW, thanks for raising this topic bc it feels super retro like the 80's console wars.  

Edited August 23, 2023 by RockLobster

[RockLobster]

5 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Yes, in most cases this is why. I modified the cartridge sleeve on my personal 7800 to allow for my SC and all of my Tigervision games to seat down all the way and work now.

Thanks for validating.   I'm happy cutting / modifying some consoles but I really want to keep my 7800 and a select few other consoles as is.   I had tried a little lube for insertion (ok, settle down with the giggles) originally with the SuperCharger but no luck.  

 

This feels like how the Sega's Powerbase Converter is technically compatible with both the Genesis Model 1 and 2.... however, you'll need to cut out a bit of plastic on the Model 2 so the converter module can actually plug in!  

 

Fortunately I'm 100% sure someone will give the SC a go on the 2600+ when they start shipping.

[RockLobster]

2 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

and isn’t nearly as difficult to buy

Here's a direct link to buy one of the currently 459 in-stock DE-10 Nano boards:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Terasic-Technologies/P0496?qs=%2FacZuiyY%2B4ZdDLJqTxdJ5w%3D%3D

 

I'm happy to do a Zoom/Discord screen sharing session if you need help typing in the quality of boards and tapping the Buy button.

[Eagle]

Also we need remember that other FPGA projects are coming for cheaper boards. 
 

MiSTeX

https://github.com/MiSTeX-devel

 

 

🤞

[+-^CrossBow^-]

31 minutes ago, RockLobster said:

Thanks for validating.   I'm happy cutting / modifying some consoles but I really want to keep my 7800 and a select few other consoles as is.   I had tried a little lube for insertion (ok, settle down with the giggles) originally with the SuperCharger but no luck.  

 

This feels like how the Sega's Powerbase Converter is technically compatible with both the Genesis Model 1 and 2.... however, you'll need to cut out a bit of plastic on the Model 2 so the converter module can actually plug in!  

 

Fortunately I'm 100% sure someone will give the SC a go on the 2600+ when they start shipping.

The modification requires removing the part of the plastic on the sleeve on the bottom side of it, that the retaining screws go into. But I don't advise this for most folks because without those screws, the sleeve will have a bit more movement around inside the console by a few mills. So it can make inserting games a little more fiddly as they might not line up as well with the slot inside the sleeve so you have to wiggle them sometimes to align them. But yes, the dust pegs on the SC and some tigervision carts extend out too far and as a result, they bottom out on that part of the plastic inside the sleeve before the pcb fingers can make proper contact with the cartridge slot.

 

But again, you could also have the extra timing circuit in place, and I believe that too will prevent the SC from coming up properly. Disabling that circuit is very easy as you only have to clip one leg of a capacitor that feeds to it. Disabling it will prevent at least 1 game from working and possibly 2 or 3. Those games are 2600 games however, with 7800 versions available that can still be played and are better versions in most respects.

 

[RockLobster]

2 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

But yes, the dust pegs on the SC and some tigervision carts extend out too far and as a result, they bottom out on that part of the plastic inside the sleeve before the pcb fingers can make proper contact with the cartridge slot.

Would one of the 2600 cartridge selector/extenders help with this?

[livingonwheels]

Something like this might help. I found it in a stash I picked up a few years ago, complete with it's original receipt:

[Zonie]

17 hours ago, RockLobster said:

OTOH, the Starpath won't even work on a real 7800...

Mine does.

[MegaManFan]

So here's a question nobody is asking about the 2600+ that I think might be important, especially since I pre-ordered the bugger. With the Atari 7800 I was repeatedly warned not to plug a Genesis controller into it because of the line voltage differences on the nine pins. I bought an Edladdin converter for that very reason. I also don't use my 8BitDo wireless controller on anything but Edladdin or the official Game Drive adapter. With that being the case, what should we expect from the 2600+? Do we still need to run Genesis controllers through converters or would it be safe to plug them right in?

[JagChris]

It seems to be emulation. The more I like a console the less agreeable I am to emulation.

[John Stamos Mullet]

On 8/23/2023 at 5:09 PM, Zonie said:

Mine does.

yep. If you remove that stupid timing circuit for Dark Chambers 2600 at C-63, it works just fine, as does Robot Tank, Space Shuttle, Decathlon, etc.

[Zonie]

1 minute ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

yep. If you remove that stupid timing circuit for Dark Chambers 2600 at C-63, it works just fine, as does Robot Tank, Space Shuttle, Decathlon, etc.

Getting old. I probably did this 20+ years ago but cannot remember!!!

[John Stamos Mullet]

12 hours ago, MegaManFan said:

So here's a question nobody is asking about the 2600+ that I think might be important, especially since I pre-ordered the bugger. With the Atari 7800 I was repeatedly warned not to plug a Genesis controller into it because of the line voltage differences on the nine pins. I bought an Edladdin converter for that very reason. I also don't use my 8BitDo wireless controller on anything but Edladdin or the official Game Drive adapter. With that being the case, what should we expect from the 2600+? Do we still need to run Genesis controllers through converters or would it be safe to plug them right in?

It shouldn't be an issue, because this isn't a real 2600 or 7800. It's just another emulation device, albeit with a cart port, like the Retron 77. The problem with Genesis controllers and 7800's was electrical/circuit based. Emulation won't care about that.

[RockLobster]

19 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

The problem with Genesis controllers and 7800's was electrical/circuit based. Emulation won't care about that.

What does this mean?

 

 

[RockLobster]

13 hours ago, MegaManFan said:

With the Atari 7800 I was repeatedly warned not to plug a Genesis controller into it because of the line voltage differences on the nine pins.

Not so much with voltage differences but just the pinout is different.  You can see in the attachment below of the 7800 vs Genesis pinouts.  When you plug in a controller that's wired differently, you're basically just connecting different pins together on the console that it wasn't expecting or designed to handle.  Maybe the console's port tolerances are ok with a 5V where it was not expecting it, maybe it won't.

 

If you want to test your 7800 out some more, google the ColecoVision controller pinouts.  It has two common ground pins.   

 

13 hours ago, MegaManFan said:

I bought an Edladdin converter for that very reason.

The Edladdin adapters are a bit pricey at $30 considering that the Mega7800 adapter will not only allow you to use Genesis controllers but it'll also let you use Sega Phasers as an Atari light gun.

 

Alternatively you can make your own Genesis to 7800 adapter for less than a $2-3.   

 

https://github.com/tebl/A7800-Mega-Adapter

[Bakasama]

I’ve always wondered if a genesis controller would work same way on the 7800 like it does on the 2600. I.e. does the C button work on the 7800 and can it be used on a 7800 game. It looks like it a maybe with some kind of adapter.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Bakasama

[Albert]

Okay, let's stay on topic, this is not a thread about alternatives to the 2600+, if you want to discuss those, create your own thread to do so.

 

Thank you,

 

 ..Al

[RockLobster]

Just now, Albert said:

if you want to discuss those, create your own thread to do so.

done.  this is my last response to him.   @John Stamos Mullet is welcomed to ask me via DM or another thread about tech things he wants to learn about.  

[Albert]

3 minutes ago, RockLobster said:

done.  this is my last response to him.

Thank you.