2600+ w/7800 support

[John Stamos Mullet]

B*nQ is Ken Siders work.

 

just thought that beared mentioning. 
 

love all of Bob’s work too, but Ken deserves a mention. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by John Stamos Mullet

[+karri]

6 hours ago, Albert said:

It's curious that ProSystem doesn't even try to run games in 48K non-bankswitching mode if it doesn't have a match in its database.  I bet that could be changed pretty easily, which would cover the bulk of all homebrew games right off the bat.

Does a 32K non-bankswitching game work if it doesn't have a match in the database?

[gambler172]

Hi Trebor

Did you test the original homebrew carts?

I could not get only one to work...Baby Pac does not work at all....or all Asteroids games...

[gambler172]

5 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

B*nQ is Ken Siders work.

 

just thought that beared mentioning. 
 

love all of Bob’s work too, but Ken deserves a mention. 

I have BonQ too...got it from Atariage and it does not wirk on my 2600+

[+karri]

Even if we get a working new firmware there will always be a large number of units that never get updated. Does it mean that 7800 games not in the database have to be NTSC 32K games? Or is the situation even worse?

[gambler172]

33 minutes ago, karri said:

Even if we get a working new firmware there will always be a large number of units that never get updated. Does it mean that 7800 games not in the database have to be NTSC 32K games? Or is the situation even worse?

even the smallest 7800 homebrews do not work 😭  but Commando, which is much bigger, works very well.

Edited November 19, 2023 by gambler172

[gambler172]

Hi Guys

Found my first homebrew, which worked on the 2600+....Ms Paman fast, made by Bob 😉

However, his other PacMan versions do not work.

[Trebor]

14 hours ago, karri said:

Even if we get a working new firmware there will always be a large number of units that never get updated. Does it mean that 7800 games not in the database have to be NTSC 32K games? Or is the situation even worse?

The ProSystem emulator package contains a file: ProSystem.dat

Inside that ProSystem.dat file lists the MD5 and some information of how to handle that ROM:

Lines such as "hblank=28" are the hacks it implements to work around core issues to make a ROM playable - albeit not necessary accurately; I.E. speed issues (Tower Toppler & Asteroids), glitches such as scanline corruption at the top of screen (Xevious), or multiple corruptions towards the bottom of the screen (Commando - title screen), still exists in some games.

 

If the ROM's MD5 is not listed in that ProSystem.dat file, the game simply does not work.  That is why even aftermarket/homebrew games that contain TIA sound only and are small as 16K (Space Invaders), 32K (Jr. Pac-Man), 48K (b*nQ), do not run at all.

 

The above are all limitation of the original ProSystem 1.3e emulator - which I am beating a dead horse - nonetheless, does not exist with the ProSystem 1.3e core that is modified and vastly improved upon under JS7800.

 

P.S. The ProSystem 1.3e emulator only supports one palette at a time, no palette swapping between regions.  The default palette is a mash-up between regions, a mess, that is mostly okay for NTSC, but very off the mark for PAL.

[+karri]

2 hours ago, Trebor said:

If the ROM's MD5 is not listed in that ProSystem.dat file, the game simply does not work.

Thanks for the explanation. I just lost interest in the 2600+ for now. There is no point in developing games for a unit that cannot run them.

 

I really hope Atari takes its time to test whatever solution they may come up with to fix this. No point in putting band aid on a fundamentally flawed system.

[John Stamos Mullet]

I have to say even though I'm happily waiting for my 2600+ to arrive, I find it confusing that during the same time the current version of Atari were developing this new console, they were also negotiating with Albert to buy Atariage - the lone website on the whole of the internet where all of the information regarding updated versions of Stella and Prosystem that make them far more compatible existed, and yet "Atari" never bothered to even look at the website they were buying for this information to make their product better, even though they were literally buying the rights to own the site that contained all that info.

Edited November 19, 2023 by John Stamos Mullet

[Trebor]

10 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I have to say even though I'm happily waiting for my 2600+ to arrive, I find it confusing that during the same time the current version of Atari were developing this new console, they were also negotiating with Albert to buy Atariage - the lone website on the whole of the internet where all of the information regarding updated versions of Stella and Prosystem that make them far more compatible existed, and yet "Atari" never bothered to even look at the website they were buying for this information to make their product better, even though they were literally buying the rights to own the site that contained all that info.

They did reach out about Stella - last year no less.

Quote

I don't do anything but think about what feedback I get here on AA. However those thoughts have to be tempered against the business case. Without forecasted profitable outcome there is no product.

 

Let me tell you something, I don't think Thomas will mind me sharing this... way back last year I started talking to Stella devs about what we wanted to do, we had cordial discussions, I shared detail on the proposed software set up with him - he railed against it. I thought Fuck - this guy is the apex of the 2600 community, I need to heed his advice....it was detailed blunt feedback, two main points spring to mind, Stella had to move from 2014 version to 6.7 and the dumper chip has to be rewritable. So I scrapped the set up and instructed to rework it all, delaying proposed launch date. Probably the best decision I made for the 2600+.

 
I'm not saying it's now perfect and everyone ( including Thomas ) will be satisfied I'm just trying to show that we did listen and tried to do everything in our limited power to make best product we could.

They were going to leverage a nearly as old version of Stella (2014) as ProSystem 1.3e (2013) for the 2600+; however, Thomas convinced them otherwise.  The lack of compatibility experienced now for 2600 titles (I.E. many of CHAMP GAMES) is due to not being able to emulate the ARM processor.  This is likely similar to the issue with not being able to leverage the A7800 emulator, the processor being used for 2600+ is not fast enough.  It cannot emulate the ARM adequately.  

 

Unless they find a way to hack around or some extremely fast implementation of the ARM processor, under the current hardware for 2600+, it does not seem for any title with an ARM chip to ever run satisfactory, if at all, with that unit.

 

Nevertheless, although 2600 support was given consideration and even modifications, they went back to the drawing board for it, the 7800 support side was an afterthought at worst, oversight at best.  Love the concern Atari had for the 2600 community in the quote above.  What about the 7800 community though?

 

Believe me, I would love for the 2600+ to be exactly how it is advertised.  The "P" they provide in their compatibility list though is more to mean: probably playable, not necessarily accurate.  The current product containing 7800 support should have been more like a surprise or Easter Egg, rather than a marketing tactic that is less than honest as far as I am concerned.

 

Respecting 7800 platform support, it's a horrible first impression.

 

Preliminary support for 7800 original retail lineup titles. More work needs to be done to improve compatibility and accuracy.  In the future, some, possibly many, aftermarket homebrew releases will be supported.  That is more of a realistic and honest take on the current 2600+ product.

 

Under promise and over deliver - not the other way around.

 

This...

...translating to this...

...is misleading, if not deceiving.

[Bakasama]

I don’t I seen this addressed anywhere, does the color/bw switch pause the 7800 games?

[+karri]

18 minutes ago, Trebor said:

I would love for the 2600+ to be exactly how it is advertised.

I have the same feeling now as I had back in the time when Lynx was advertised as a 16-bit system - a portable Amiga!. After signing all NDA's I finally got the tools to develop for it. Just to find out that it was an 8-bit system.

 

But unfortunately marketing and reality have never been talking to each other...

[famicommander]

2 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I have to say even though I'm happily waiting for my 2600+ to arrive, I find it confusing that during the same time the current version of Atari were developing this new console, they were also negotiating with Albert to buy Atariage - the lone website on the whole of the internet where all of the information regarding updated versions of Stella and Prosystem that make them far more compatible existed, and yet "Atari" never bothered to even look at the website they were buying for this information to make their product better, even though they were literally buying the rights to own the site that contained all that info.

This is Atari.

 

They released the VCS 3 years ago and it's still not in a state where someone can just buy one, get it home, and actually use it. 

 

They released utterly horrible Atari Flashbacks several years in a row, each time promising to fix the paddles, and they never really did. And people kept buying it anyway. These devices have awful emulation, awful hardware quality control, and the company that makes them used deceptive tactics to promote them several times.

 

They released the Gamestation Pro which has utterly awful controls, lag, poor emulation, and doesn't even have everything it says it does on the box.

 

They released a MyArcade handheld device which only plays 2600 games, but doesn't actually run them at full speed.

 

They have utterly zero standards or quality control because they know Atari fans will buy literally anything they put out. And not only that, they'll go online and make excuses for why the emulation sucks or the controllers lag or the box makes false claims, then they'll buy next year's device which addresses none of those concerns and start the process over again.

 

Atari flat out does not care about releasing quality hardware devices. The proof is in the pudding.

Edited November 19, 2023 by famicommander

[+splendidnut]

36 minutes ago, Trebor said:

The lack of compatibility experienced now for 2600 titles (I.E. many of CHAMP GAMES) is due to not being able to emulate the ARM processor.  This is likely similar to the issue with not being able to leverage the A7800 emulator, the processor being used for 2600+ is not fast enough.  It cannot emulate the ARM adequately.  

 

Unless they find a way to hack around or some extremely fast implementation of the ARM processor, under the current hardware for 2600+, it does not seem for any title with an ARM chip to ever run satisfactory, if at all, with that unit.

The issue with ARM-based 2600 games is more of a cartridge detecting and dumping issue.  Since not all of the cartridge ROM is exposed to the 6507 via the cartridge interface, it makes things a bit tricky.  There are probably ways to get around that... but would require a bit of work to accomplish.  It sounds like there is some effort to potentially rectify this in a future firmware update.  My understanding is that the 2600+ CPU is not the barrier here, at least for the 2600 side-of things.  I could be wrong.

[+Defender_2600]

1 hour ago, Bakasama said:

I don’t I seen this addressed anywhere, does the color/bw switch pause the 7800 games?

No.

 

I've mentioned this a couple of times to @Ben from Plaion

 

"I also take this opportunity to remind you of my previous question:

 

- The Atari 7800 has a pause button. With Atari 2600+, in 7800 mode, will it be possible to use the color/black-white switch as a pause button? See here and here for further information. 

 

Answer: I'll ask about this.

 

As a third-generation system, the 7800 has several games (and will have other games) that can't be completed in a quick gaming session, so having the pause button is important. You can imagine the disappointment of having to interrupt a gaming session at the best moment, because you have the urgency to go to the bathroom."

 

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, Trebor said:

They did reach out about Stella - last year no less.

They were going to leverage a nearly as old version of Stella (2014) as ProSystem 1.3e (2013) for the 2600+; however, Thomas convinced them otherwise.  The lack of compatibility experienced now for 2600 titles (I.E. many of CHAMP GAMES) is due to not being able to emulate the ARM processor.  This is likely similar to the issue with not being able to leverage the A7800 emulator, the processor being used for 2600+ is not fast enough.  It cannot emulate the ARM adequately.  

 

Unless they find a way to hack around or some extremely fast implementation of the ARM processor, under the current hardware for 2600+, it does not seem for any title with an ARM chip to ever run satisfactory, if at all, with that unit.

 

Nevertheless, although 2600 support was given consideration and even modifications, they went back to the drawing board for it, the 7800 support side was an afterthought at worst, oversight at best.  Love the concern Atari had for the 2600 community in the quote above.  What about the 7800 community though?

 

Believe me, I would love for the 2600+ to be exactly how it is advertised.  The "P" they provide in their compatibility list though is more to mean: probably playable, not necessarily accurately.  The current product containing 7800 support should have been more like a surprise or Easter Egg, rather than a marketing tactic that is less than honest as far as I am concerned.

 

Respecting 7800 platform support, it's a horrible first impression.

 

Preliminary 7800 support for retail titles. More work needs to be done to improve compatibility and accuracy.  In the future, some, possibly many homebrews, to be supported, is more of a realistic take on the current 2600+ product. 

 

Under promise and over deliver - not the other way around.

 

This...

...is not accurate.

I mean, I wasn't really talking about the newer games with arm chips. I can't realistically expect those, since the 2600+ itself uses an ARM chip that isn't very powerful.

 

But the use of Greg's original Prosystem final source instead of any of the subsequent improvements is pretty shoddy.

[Trebor]

6 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I mean, I wasn't really talking about the newer games with arm chips. I can't realistically expect those, since the 2600+ itself uses an ARM chip that isn't very powerful.

 

But the use of Greg's original Prosystem final source instead of any of the subsequent improvements is pretty shoddy.

I didn't mean to send a mix signal regarding the Stella team being reached out to last year and ARM games not working.  That was not the intended analogy.

 

Rather, as you mentioned, leveraging an archaic ProSystem emulator source for the 7800. Not providing the same consideration giving to 2600/Stella, but still touting 7800 compatibility, as if it was on the same level, which clearly, it is not even close. 

 

If the same consideration was provided to the 7800, drawing a parallel with the 2600 support and ARM, for the 7800, the outstanding item, what is not supported, is the BupChip; which is completely understandable.  I wouldn't realistically expect that to work with 2600+.

 

That could have been the case, if the A7800 or JS7800 was the reference point and they "scrapped the set up [with original ProSystem] and instructed to rework it all [Utilizing either JS7800 or A7800 (sources)], delaying proposed launch date" with the 7800 support in mind as well.

 

Such a missed opportunity, that hopefully will be fixed in the future.

[Chemical Burrito]

So is it just me, or does anyone else notice that the two controller buttons are "wired" backwards on the 2600+ as compared to a real 7800? 

[Trebor]

52 minutes ago, Chemical Burrito said:

So is it just me, or does anyone else notice that the two controller buttons are "wired" backwards on the 2600+ as compared to a real 7800? 

If that is indeed the case, then the source version being utilized may be 1.3a and not 1.3e. 

Backwards/swapped buttons assignments was 'fixed' under v1.3b.

Further, better button behavior overall was not addressed under v1.3d.

A bug was introduced with that and corrected under v1.3d2.

 

I stated recently v1.3e is from 2013.  Sorry, that's 2009 instead, as mentioned earlier in the thread, and where all button issues were finally sorted.

 

In 2015, there were 'unofficial' v1.3f and v1.3g releases. 

The latter is where a couple of accuracy issues started to be addressed, but again the real money is with relatively recent JS7800 updates.

July and August updates from this year are especially killer, though some great updates took place in 2020 and 2021 too.

 

Atari / @Ben from Plaion would be wise to reach out to @RevEng to see if he is even interested to be employed as a hired contractor to tackle improving whatever is currently in place for the 2600+.

[+karri]

2 hours ago, Trebor said:

Atari / @Ben from Plaion would be wise to reach out to @RevEng to see if he is even interested to be employed as a hired contractor to tackle improving whatever is currently in place for the 2600+.

Please take your time to fix the actual cause of the problems.

[AtariLeaf]

3 hours ago, Trebor said:

If that is indeed the case, then the source version being utilized may be 1.3a and not 1.3e. 

Backwards/swapped buttons assignments was 'fixed' under v1.3b.

Further, better button behavior overall was not addressed under v1.3d.

A bug was introduced with that and corrected under v1.3d2.

 

I stated recently v1.3e is from 2013.  Sorry, that's 2009 instead, as mentioned earlier in the thread, and where all button issues were finally sorted.

 

 

Would this explain the random warps in 7800 asteroids with no button press on the europad?

[Trebor]

On 11/18/2023 at 9:34 PM, Albert said:

It's curious that ProSystem doesn't even try to run games in 48K non-bankswitching mode if it doesn't have a match in its database.  I bet that could be changed pretty easily, which would cover the bulk of all homebrew games right off the bat.

Digging further into this, the problem with the game not being tried or even recognized at all without an entry, exists with the original ProSystem 1.3 release.

 

The above was corrected with 1.3a release.

 

Sadly, it looks like Atari may have implemented the original 1.3 sources which explains why things are even worse than expected.

[SuperZapperRecharge]

3 hours ago, AtariLeaf said:

 

Would this explain the random warps in 7800 asteroids with no button press on the europad?

If you have random button presses in 7800 games try plugging in two controllers. Reading your message triggered my brain about a similar issue in Rikki and Vikki. Took me a bit to find but here it is:

 

Quote

T : I'm playing single player mode and my character keeps picking up boxes or jumping - I'm not even pressing these buttons on the controller!
... or ...
T : My controller doesn't seem to be working right in Rikki & Vikki, but other games are fine. What gives?!
S : Rikki & Vikki allows the use of either controller port to move your character when playing as Rikki or Vikki Alone. While this usually doesn't cause any issues, some owners may experience ghost button presses similar to the ones in Xenophobe and Rampage. These can be mitigated by having two-button controllers connected to both ports when playing. If you have an AtariVox connected, try removing it.

 

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/285896-rikki-vikki/

 

This may only be an issue on real hardware and not the 2600+ controller ports.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, SuperZapperRecharge said:

If you have random button presses in 7800 games try plugging in two controllers. Reading your message triggered my brain about a similar issue in Rikki and Vikki. Took me a bit to find but here it is:

 

 

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/285896-rikki-vikki/

 

This may only be an issue on real hardware and not the 2600+ controller ports.

This is indeed an issue on actual hardware, most likely due to R34 and R35 needing to be replaced with tighter spec'd values. But in the case of emulation, this wouldn't be an issue.