Do you prefer the recharged games or the original version's ?

[juansolo]

10 hours ago, ledzep said:

Nope, trying reading what I wrote again.  I said the game is very ADHD.  I said the players seem to have no patience for the gameplay of the originals, they prefer continuous additions/changes to what's going on in the game.  I don't need to play them for myself, watching your videos (and others) of playing through shows me that they don't act "correctly", like the originals, everything has been slowed down and softened, what made the originals unique has been removed and replaced with slower movement and power-ups.  Why would I want to play that style?

This is not a new thing. I remember back in the day being at a computer club and someone brought one of those new PC Engine things. I was playing a shoot-em-up on it, can't remember which one, when a kid rocks up and asked, "Has it got weapons?", meaning powerups. When I said that I didn't think so his instant dismissal was, "that's shit then," and he wandered off. Whatever it was it was a brilliant game, and I ended up wanting a PCE very badly.

 

Some people just have a short attention span. It's all playlists not albums, TikTok not films, looter shooters that endlessly reward you with new weapons that are just the same thing with different stats. You can have both, don't get me wrong, but it's rare these days that things are based on pure playability. Gotta appeal to everyone.

Edited September 29, 2023 by juansolo

[ledzep]

9 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

Here's some gameplay of me playing the original versions like I promised:

 

 

 

Black Widow recharged seemed the least changed from the original, but it seems like you weren't quite ready for the faster more manic insects.  That's what I loved about that game, at any moment something would leap out from some random direction and kill me if I couldn't adjust fast enough.  I don't think the recharged version really had that game mechanic to it.  Are you using a twin stick controller?

 

7800 Centipede ain't the real deal.  It's not bad, but it's not the arcade version.  At least the spider puts up a fight.

 

Ya, that's what I expected would happen if you played the original Missile Command.  The first couple levels are easy enough you almost don't need the outer ABM bases.  And then, out of nowhere, if you're not on top of things half your shit gets nuked.

 

Based on how your cursor was moving in Missile Command I'm going to guess that you weren't using a trak-ball?  If so, then you're not actually playing the full version of Missile Command (same for Centipede, once you play the original which, by the way, is oriented vertically in the arcade, less room to escape sideways).  It changes gameplay a lot, in a way that not even an analog joystick can replicate.  And for the better.

 

I'll tell you what, I feel bad for younger arcade game fans who never got the chance to play those games when they were new in actual arcades.  At home on an emulator or modern console is not the same.

[stirrell]

One thing that I really wish the Recharged games did would be to include the original versions of the games they are based on. I would love to see Atari use these new games as a way to pay homage to the originals and explain the history of the games and give credit to the original creators.

 

What I like about the Recharged games:

 

- The missions add a lot of variety and an extra dimension to these games.

 

- I like the graphics and sound and how the whole series fits together as a cohesive whole. Kind of like how you knew those few vector games in the arcade were Atari games immediately back in the day.

 

The thing about graphics and sound is that it is obviously so subjective. And I agree with @ledzep that graphics can be overdone. I still loved Tempest 2000 but I think Jeff Minter went overboard in later games like Space Giraffe. So there is a line for me as well but it is obviously drawn in a different place.

 

- Online leaderboards are a great addition and it is fun to see the competitions going on, especially in the VCS Discord. I am never in the running for the top score but it is still adds motivation to do better.

 

- Like some people talk about the importance of the original controls to a game (spinner, buttons, trackball), I find that the Classic controller in the VCS really elevates a few of these games. Notably Breakout (as you’d expect), Gravitar, and Asteroids.

 

- Couch co-op. Adding a second player makes it such a better social experience than taking turns.

 

Out of the Recharged games, I suspect that Gravitar might be one that might appeal to @ledzep. The graphics and music are subdued and I think it updates the gameplay in a way that “feels” like the original. The original, to me, skewed too difficult.

 

Anyway, I really appreciate the Recharged series. I’ve been playing the originals for over 30 years so I appreciate a different experience. And the originals are always there when I want to revisit them.

 

i would like to see Atari also try to come up with new “old” games. Games like Donut Dodo that feels just like an 80s arcade game but is a whole new thing. I don’t know know if there is a big enough market for that sort of thing…

[JPF997]

6 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Black Widow recharged seemed the least changed from the original, but it seems like you weren't quite ready for the faster more manic insects.  That's what I loved about that game, at any moment something would leap out from some random direction and kill me if I couldn't adjust fast enough.  I don't think the recharged version really had that game mechanic to it.  Are you using a twin stick controller?

 

7800 Centipede ain't the real deal.  It's not bad, but it's not the arcade version.  At least the spider puts up a fight.

 

Ya, that's what I expected would happen if you played the original Missile Command.  The first couple levels are easy enough you almost don't need the outer ABM bases.  And then, out of nowhere, if you're not on top of things half your shit gets nuked.

 

Based on how your cursor was moving in Missile Command I'm going to guess that you weren't using a trak-ball?  If so, then you're not actually playing the full version of Missile Command (same for Centipede, once you play the original which, by the way, is oriented vertically in the arcade, less room to escape sideways).  It changes gameplay a lot, in a way that not even an analog joystick can replicate.  And for the better.

 

I'll tell you what, I feel bad for younger arcade game fans who never got the chance to play those games when they were new in actual arcades.  At home on an emulator or modern console is not the same.

I'm playing these games with my dual sense PS5 controller so naturally I'm not going to be as accurate as if I had a trackball (still better than nothing, at least I can play and enjoy these games on my PS5 with the default controller), and the reason I played the 7800 version of centipede is because I prefer it over the original arcade version, the screen is more zoomed in compared to the arcade version so you can see the enemies better, I also think it runs the smoothest out of all the non recharged centipede games, great version in my book 👍

[ledzep]

1 minute ago, JPF997 said:

I'm playing these games with my dual sense PS5 controller so naturally I'm not going to be as accurate as if I had a trackball (still better than nothing, at least I can play and enjoy these games on my PS5 with the default controller), and the reason I played the 7800 version of centipede is because I prefer it over the original arcade version, the screen is more zoomed in compared to the arcade version so you can see the enemies better, I also think it runs the smoothest out of all the non recharged centipede games, great version in my book 👍

 

Maybe so, but that's not the point.  If you're going to compare the gameplay of the recharged versions to the arcade originals, you have to play the arcade originals.  That means the arcade version of Centipede and with the correct controls.  I suspect that the spider would take your head off faster in the arcade version.  And the fleas are a bit more effective in the arcade version, too.  The screen is more zoomed in?  What, are you playing on a 27" CRT now?  Modern TVs are more than big enough for you to see the bugs in arcade Centipede, don't worry.

 

That also means the arcade version of Missile Command which, of course, requires a trak-ball.  I think you think it doesn't matter, you couldn't be more misled.  5200 Missile Command was always so-so to me with an analog stick (though still better than a digital stick) until I got to play it with the trak-ball, then holy shit, that's pretty close.  If only it had the correct 3 ABM bases.

 

Is there no trak-ball controller for the PS5?  Oh, seems like 'No' except for maybe this, if it gets made?

 

http://gadgetsin.com/the-pc-game-controller-with-trackball.htm

 

You poor slobs, nobody even cares to make a proper trak-ball controller for your system.  I suppose a trak-ball mouse is a decent alternative?  If it has enough buttons for Missile Command.  I wonder if you have a spinner controller to play Tempest correctly.

[JPF997]

30 minutes ago, stirrell said:

 

 

i would like to see Atari also try to come up with new “old” games. Games like Donut Dodo that feels just like an 80s arcade game but is a whole new thing. I don’t know know if there is a big enough market for that sort of thing…

In that case you'll love kombinera and Mr run and jump, new old games Atari released this year, both very well received by both fans and critics, qomp2 is also coming out soon and it's looking pretty great from everything I've seen.

[JPF997]

3 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Maybe so, but that's not the point.  If you're going to compare the gameplay of the recharged versions to the arcade originals, you have to play the arcade originals.  That means the arcade version of Centipede and with the correct controls.  I suspect that the spider would take your head off faster in the arcade version.  And the fleas are a bit more effective in the arcade version, too.  The screen is more zoomed in?  What, are you playing on a 27" CRT now?  Modern TVs are more than big enough for you to see the bugs in arcade Centipede, don't worry.

 

 

Maybe zoomed in isn't the right word, I don't like the look of it as much as the 7800 version, I think it's probably because in the arcade version the screen is in vertical mode instead of horizontal like the 7800 version, it doesn't feel as natural to me to play a game from a vertical perspective.

[stirrell]

12 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

In that case you'll love kombinera and Mr run and jump, new old games Atari released this year, both very well received by both fans and critics, qomp2 is also coming out soon and it's looking pretty great from everything I've seen.

I was thinking something more like an arcade game from the early 80s. Donut Dodo could have been put into a cabinet in an 80s arcade and totally fit in. Kombinera and Mr. Run and Jump are both definitely modern games. I'm not a huge fan of puzzle games so I got to a certain point in Kombinera and then just got too frustrated. It isn't just the puzzle element but the exacting controls needed also added to my frustration, personally.

Looking at Mr. Run and Jump, I don't think I would like it. It seems way too difficult/frustrating for me. And from what I have been reading from others, that seems to be correct. So I passed on that particular title.

I liked Atari Mania but it seemed like such a missed opportunity. The idea was great but the controls in some of the mini games felt really wrong. And many of the mini games were so ridiculously simple while the bosses could be very tough. It didn't seem to balance the difficulty very well. But I enjoyed the aesthetic and cheesy humor of it.

[JPF997]

5 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

 

 

http://gadgetsin.com/the-pc-game-controller-with-trackball.htm

 

You poor slobs, nobody even cares to make a proper trak-ball controller for your system.  I suppose a trak-ball mouse is a decent alternative?  If it has enough buttons for Missile Command.  I wonder if you have a spinner controller to play Tempest correctly.

I didn't buy a PS5 just to play Atari's games you know, I could purchase they're games on  any modern  system or store like Xbox/Steam/Epic/GOG/Nintendo/PS5 etc.

If you're curious I can show you my PS5 full game collection so far:

 

[zzip]

13 hours ago, JPF997 said:

I think the minimalistic look gives it a timeless feel, in 10 years it will still look fresh and not outdated like many remake's that have come out of other games,

Trust me, it's going to look dated in 10 years time.   That look and color palette will be associated with this era, and 10 years down the road people will be looking for something new.   There's also bound to be a backlash against minimalism at some point since you can only take that so far.

 

Quote

it's funny that you mentioned Super Mario bros Wii because I consider that game to be a perfect example of this, it already looks more dated than the classics,  Super Mario bros 3 and Super Mario world in contrast to the Wii game haven't aged one bit and still look great today.

To me the originals look dated, espeically the first SMB.   The Wii version doesn't look too dated other than the fact it's not HD

 

4 hours ago, ledzep said:

I never played the original Haunted House, it seems very simple and boring to me though I know my friends had it and liked it.  I watched this Atari 50 version video on it and it seems like a vast improvement.  Not saying it's a game I'd run out to get but if I bought the Atari 50 collection and it's in there, anyway, I'd play it.  I suspect that if the 2600 could do anything better than LEGO block graphics that the game would look like a primitive version of this reimagined version (3D view). 

I was not super impressed with the Haunted House update on Atari 50:  I don't think translating the original graphics into 3D is the right way to go about advancing the franchise,  instead they should have used the enhanced graphics of the 5200, Jaguar or whatever to enhance the graphics to make it creepier.    Here's some examples of other 8-bit horror-themed games to give an idea of directions a Haunted House franchise could have taken:

 

Colecovision Dracula (unreleased, but I so wanted to play this based on the screenshots)

 

Maxwell Manor (Atari 8-bit)

 

Ghost Chaser (C64/Atari 8-bit)

 

I am interested in the new Haunted House game Atari is releasing in two weeks.   Atari hasn't had great luck in rebooting it so far, but this new version has at least one great preview so far:

https://www.relyonhorror.com/in-depth/hands-on-preview-from-pax-west-ataris-haunted-house-2023/

 

[GraffitiTavern]

Just downloaded Asteroids Recharged for Switch, I like it but there are two main thoughts

1. Personally I think the power ups are too frequent

2. Definitely it could use a more fleshed out follow-up like Missile Command Recharged, I find the ADHD talk here to be funny because it's a fairly simple game in both gameplay and graphics

 

A lot of the new upgrades however are fun, particularly the bomb

[zzip]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:50 PM, leech said:

Ha, now that I think about it... seems to me the Video Game crash coincided with me getting into D&D... which of course led to me being a huge fan of Ultima on the 800xl... I was basically a computer gamer since then.

Yeah it seemed like the video game frenzy peaked in the summer of 1983,  and after that it seemed most people either made the jump to computers or moved onto other non-gaming interests.    Soon after that my friends took up D&D, and then AD&D.   I liked the idea and aesthetic of D&D but found all the paperwork and dice rolling tedious, so the idea of the computer managing the stats and rolls for me while allowing me to focus on the exploring and adventure part was ideal,   I started buying every RPG computer game in sight

 

[Giles N]

 

Recharged is a good idea. Retain the original gameplay and expand upon it.

 

But much better and up-to-date graphics, and some more depth to the games, please!

[ledzep]

19 hours ago, juansolo said:

This is not a new thing. I remember back in the day being at a computer club and someone brought one of those new PC Engine things. I was playing a shoot-em-up on it, can't remember which one, when a kid rocks up and asked, "Has it got weapons?", meaning powerups. When I said that I didn't think so his instant dismissal was, "that's shit then," and he wandered off. Whatever it was it was a brilliant game, and I ended up wanting a PCE very badly.

 

Ya, that guy was dead wrong.  I mean, I can understand someone preferring games with power-ups because that's what he's used to, but "power-ups" has got absolutely dick to do with how the game plays, the controls and the action.

 

19 hours ago, juansolo said:

Some people just have a short attention span. It's all playlists not albums, TikTok not films, looter shooters that endlessly reward you with new weapons that are just the same thing with different stats. You can have both, don't get me wrong, but it's rare these days that things are based on pure playability. Gotta appeal to everyone.

 

Exactly, they must break out into a sweat being forced to listen to a vinyl record all the way through, haahaha.

 

You can never appeal to everyone, that's like a car company trying to combine a compact car, performance car, full-size sedan and SUV all into one machine.  If it actually got made, nobody would like it.  Better for a games company to make different types of games for different tastes, they'll sell plenty, not just all of them to everybody.

[ledzep]

18 hours ago, JPF997 said:

Maybe zoomed in isn't the right word, I don't like the look of it as much as the 7800 version, I think it's probably because in the arcade version the screen is in vertical mode instead of horizontal like the 7800 version, it doesn't feel as natural to me to play a game from a vertical perspective.

 

That's fine in terms of what you would choose to play normally, but if you want to compare the recharged Centipede to the arcade original (and there's no way for you to get to an upright Centipede cabinet these days except for the rare arcade), the 7800 doesn't enter into it, it's much different from the arcade version, believe me.  Especially if you're not even using a trak-ball.  Just for your own experience, don't you want to understand what the recharged version is based off of?  It's not the 7800 version.  Even the 5200 version with a trak-ball would be closer to the original except for the horizontal orientation.  If your collection of Atari games includes the arcade Centipede, that's the only one you should compare to.  Part of the anxiety of the game is that it is oriented vertically, there's less room for you to escape sideways, a little claustrophobia to go along with the speed of the faster bugs, hahaaha.

 

I'm curious, have you used an actual trak-ball (not a mouse) to play trak-ball games?  If so, can you tell how different the movement and accuracy is compared to an analog joystick (don't even bother with a digital stick)?  Same question with the spinner, a real one that keeps rotating for a bit if you spin it hard.

 

17 hours ago, JPF997 said:

I didn't buy a PS5 just to play Atari's games you know, I could purchase they're games on  any modern  system or store like Xbox/Steam/Epic/GOG/Nintendo/PS5 etc.

If you're curious I can show you my PS5 full game collection so far:

 

Oh, I wasn't saying you were only playing Atari's games on a PS5 or anything like that.  Just saying that it's sad that a modern gaming console wouldn't even offer a trak-ball (and a spinner and paddles) as separate controller options for the less obvious (non-digital/analog joystick) game inputs.  I notice in your list of games that Quantum is included.  That game in the arcades was designed for a trak-ball, too.  Also games like Marble Madness, Crystal Castles, oohh, even Reactor.  Not that many, sure, but nothing is as good as a trak-ball for the games designed for it.  One day you and a friend should try Atari Football in person (arcade convention, probably) just to see the hell that those giant trak-balls can inflict on your hands, hahaaha.  Have to earn your gamer stripes!

 

I assume you don't have a spinner for Tempest.  I have Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator (beautiful color vector game), 4 buttons + spinner, wouldn't really work without the correct controls.  Do you guys even realize what you're missing out on playing all these old games with the same modern gamepad instead of the correct controller schemes?

 

Huh, the recharged Quantum isn't that offensive but it's no improvement.  I don't mind the new "enemies" (how can particles be enemies, hahaha) but I don't like that the little lasso (or whatever you call a closed loop) lingers, in the original the second you close the loop it disappears so if there's nothing caught inside, try again.  Makes the game harder.  Yet again with the stupid camera sliding around.

 

 

 

It's like the programmers feel bad that the original arcade versions are too hard for younger gamers so they've made all the games easier, the enemies are weaker or downright dumb and there are loads of power-ups to make the easy task even easier.  Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing in that recharged version, are some of the enemies willingly leaping into those closed loops?  Talk about easy.  And then crap music spread over everything.

[ledzep]

19 hours ago, stirrell said:

One thing that I really wish the Recharged games did would be to include the original versions of the games they are based on. I would love to see Atari use these new games as a way to pay homage to the originals and explain the history of the games and give credit to the original creators.

 

That seems obvious so it seems sad that it didn't happen (taking your word for it since I haven't played them).  It would be funny to add some bit of the original arcade version as a level at random times, like if an enemy activated something before you could kill it then you get dropped into arcade Missile Command or arcade Centipede or whatever and then, within that inner game is a not very obvious power-up or slightly different enemy that, if you can shoot it, pops you back into bloated modern power-up nirvana.  That's what I would have done.

 

19 hours ago, stirrell said:

- Like some people talk about the importance of the original controls to a game (spinner, buttons, trackball), I find that the Classic controller in the VCS really elevates a few of these games. Notably Breakout (as you’d expect), Gravitar, and Asteroids.

 

I'm just surprised that these modern consoles offer the arcade classics but not the controllers to go with them.  What, they hate making more money?  Seems short-sighted.  You know enough gamers would buy a real trak-ball controller or a spinner (both of which would probably still have an analog stick and many buttons, too, to make them a bit more useful for more games).  I know I would.  Back in the day lots of companies were making controllers for the 2600, some really oddball looking ones, too, why not now?

 

19 hours ago, stirrell said:

Out of the Recharged games, I suspect that Gravitar might be one that might appeal to @ledzep. The graphics and music are subdued and I think it updates the gameplay in a way that “feels” like the original. The original, to me, skewed too difficult.

 

Oh ya, the original was hard as fuck, like Defender and Robotron hard for me.  But that's part of why I like those games, they're the harder challenges.  You're not supposed to make the games easier, the players are supposed to get better at them.  Boo hoo, they're not experts after a couple sessions, they need to earn those victories!  But I guess metaphorically modern gamers can't handle tackle football, they prefer 2-hand touch?

 

After watching this -

 

 

I get the sense than they made the recharged version way too easy compared to the arcade version.  I like some of the added obstacles but the enemies, again, seem very cartoony (same with the background, but at least, no goddamn background neon grids).  And everything seems slower, easier.  Actually some of that looked like they slowed down Gravitar and crammed like 40% Major Havoc into it.  And I assume that the recharged version doesn't force you to play using only buttons to maneuver, right?  That also made the original harder.

 

On the other hand, because of the Major Havoc direction, it seems to have a lot more to explore than the original (since that one was in the arcade so nobody was in the mood to have you spend hours floating around doing shit on only 1 quarter).  I think it would be fun as a game, it's just not "Gravitar" enough.  I would be more enthused with seeing a Gravitar level in another VCTR-SCTR type homage game, personally.  But then I prefer vector graphics.

 

20 hours ago, stirrell said:

i would like to see Atari also try to come up with new “old” games. Games like Donut Dodo that feels just like an 80s arcade game but is a whole new thing. I don’t know know if there is a big enough market for that sort of thing…

 

Yes!  I would love for Atari to go through their pile of unreleased/rejected games from back in the day and get someone to complete them.  You know there must have been lots of cool ideas that got passed over for whatever reasons, primarily that the game wouldn't make enough money in the arcades.  But this isn't the arcade era anymore, maybe those ideas would fit better with home consoles?  I mean, some bands put out remastered CDs of old albums with extra tracks, Japanese-only tracks, single b-sides, demos, why can't Atari do the same?  I'm sure there were probably even more 2600/5200 era games that never got released.  They should definitely finished uncompleted games like 5200 Xevious or Millipede.

[ledzep]

17 hours ago, zzip said:

I was not super impressed with the Haunted House update on Atari 50:  I don't think translating the original graphics into 3D is the right way to go about advancing the franchise,  instead they should have used the enhanced graphics of the 5200, Jaguar or whatever to enhance the graphics to make it creepier.    Here's some examples of other 8-bit horror-themed games to give an idea of directions a Haunted House franchise could have taken:

 

Ya, that's why I was saying that this reimagined version is "not the original" anymore.  The game is the same (clear the dark haunted house, assemble the urn) but the perspective is very different and the graphics far better.  Obviously the top-down perspective is more true to the original.  But these reimagined games seem to be allowed to take more liberties with the originals?  Maybe depends on the game.

 

17 hours ago, zzip said:

Colecovision Dracula (unreleased, but I so wanted to play this based on the screenshots)

 

Maxwell Manor (Atari 8-bit)

 

Ghost Chaser (C64/Atari 8-bit)

 

I don't know how that Dracula game would have worked as a game with those angled views.  Amazed that they'd even attempt that.

 

Ok, yes, I agree that the Maxwell Manor game would be much truer to the old original Haunted House as far as graphics go.  It would be able to do that dark room with just floating eyes theme with more detail than the 2600 could.  Probably with the exact same game mechanics, though, so it would almost be like how Activision (usually) wouldn't change anything with their 5200 ports of 2600 games, just add better graphics.

 

Ghost Chaser isn't bad but I think side-scroller would be even less like the original than the reimagined version is.

 

18 hours ago, zzip said:

I am interested in the new Haunted House game Atari is releasing in two weeks.   Atari hasn't had great luck in rebooting it so far, but this new version has at least one great preview so far:

https://www.relyonhorror.com/in-depth/hands-on-preview-from-pax-west-ataris-haunted-house-2023/

 

 

This seems even more removed from the original than the reimagined version is.  Looks interesting, like Scooby-Doo: The Game but it's adding way more variety and options than the original had.  I feel like the reimagined version didn't expand too far in that sense, you still had the same basic limitations (can only hold one thing at a time, simple walls/doors, same enemies) with better graphics.  And the wrong perspective, though I don't see how you get all those graphics improvements with the original's top-down design.

[JPF997]

6 hours ago, ledzep said:

 

That's fine in terms of what you would choose to play normally, but if you want to compare the recharged Centipede to the arcade original (and there's no way for you to get to an upright Centipede cabinet these days except for the rare arcade), the 7800 doesn't enter into it, it's much different from the arcade version, believe me.  Especially if you're not even using a trak-ball.  Just for your own experience, don't you want to understand what the recharged version is based off of?  It's not the 7800 version.  Even the 5200 version with a trak-ball would be closer to the original except for the horizontal orientation.  If your collection of Atari games includes the arcade Centipede, that's the only one you should compare to.  Part of the anxiety of the game is that it is oriented vertically, there's less room for you to escape sideways, a little claustrophobia to go along with the speed of the faster bugs, hahaaha.

 

I'm curious, have you used an actual trak-ball (not a mouse) to play trak-ball games?  If so, can you tell how different the movement and accuracy is compared to an analog joystick (don't even bother with a digital stick)?  Same question with the spinner, a real one that keeps rotating for a bit if you spin it hard.

 

 

Oh, I wasn't saying you were only playing Atari's games on a PS5 or anything like that.  Just saying that it's sad that a modern gaming console wouldn't even offer a trak-ball (and a spinner and paddles) as separate controller options for the less obvious (non-digital/analog joystick) game inputs.  I notice in your list of games that Quantum is included.  That game in the arcades was designed for a trak-ball, too.  Also games like Marble Madness, Crystal Castles, oohh, even Reactor.  Not that many, sure, but nothing is as good as a trak-ball for the games designed for it.  One day you and a friend should try Atari Football in person (arcade convention, probably) just to see the hell that those giant trak-balls can inflict on your hands, hahaaha.  Have to earn your gamer stripes!

 

I assume you don't have a spinner for Tempest.  I have Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator (beautiful color vector game), 4 buttons + spinner, wouldn't really work without the correct controls.  Do you guys even realize what you're missing out on playing all these old games with the same modern gamepad instead of the correct controller schemes?

 

Huh, the recharged Quantum isn't that offensive but it's no improvement.  I don't mind the new "enemies" (how can particles be enemies, hahaha) but I don't like that the little lasso (or whatever you call a closed loop) lingers, in the original the second you close the loop it disappears so if there's nothing caught inside, try again.  Makes the game harder.  Yet again with the stupid camera sliding around.

 

 

 

It's like the programmers feel bad that the original arcade versions are too hard for younger gamers so they've made all the games easier, the enemies are weaker or downright dumb and there are loads of power-ups to make the easy task even easier.  Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing in that recharged version, are some of the enemies willingly leaping into those closed loops?  Talk about easy.  And then crap music spread over everything.

I have never played any game using track balls, paddles and spinners in my life, I make do with my dual sense  PS5 controller to play these games, the arcade version's are more difficult to play but the console port's like the 7800 version's feel a lot better when using analog sticks. And since you insisted here's my most recent gameplay sessions on centipede and asteroids:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Razzie.P]

On 9/29/2023 at 7:44 AM, ledzep said:

I'll tell you what, I feel bad for younger arcade game fans who never got the chance to play those games when they were new in actual arcades.  At home on an emulator or modern console is not the same.

I have a similar take on that thought.  I don't really feel bad for younger gamers, but I do feel a bit saddened when all these new collections, AT Games garbage, etc introduce people to those games in a manner that's guaranteed to leave a negative impression.  And I've seen it plenty.

 

As just one example, I've seen my kids and their friends try to play Warlords and Circus Atari on some garbage At Games Blast collection that I picked up (the one with paddles) and of course their reaction was "this is garbage... how'd you ever play this junk when you were a kid?  But when I let them play the originals on real hardware, they loved both.   So in and of itself, all that collection did was convince people those games are barely playable crap.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 9/29/2023 at 7:18 AM, ledzep said:

You poor slobs, nobody even cares to make a proper trak-ball controller for your system.  I suppose a trak-ball mouse is a decent alternative?  If it has enough buttons for Missile Command.  I wonder if you have a spinner controller to play Tempest correctly.

Not to throw gasoline onto the fire, but:

 

https://www.ultimarc.com/trackballs-and-spinners/

 

A number of USB controls use these (or quality-equivalent) components, both DIY and pre-built; PS5 and other USB-capable console support is pretty much universal from my understanding.  I'll at least vouch for their sturdiness and effectiveness.

 

Now, the 4.5-inch Missile Command trak-balls that weigh about 500 lbs. each...  Don't know of anyone making those in USB.  Which is a shame, because they make that game feel really frantic when there're a ton of ICBMs coming down the screen and you have to move the cursor against the weight of that behemoth to get to where they're falling before they rain radioactive death upon civilisation.

[Wildstar]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Not to throw gasoline onto the fire, but:

 

https://www.ultimarc.com/trackballs-and-spinners/

 

A number of USB controls use these (or quality-equivalent) components, both DIY and pre-built; PS5 and other USB-capable console support is pretty much universal from my understanding.  I'll at least vouch for their sturdiness and effectiveness.

 

Now, the 4.5-inch Missile Command trak-balls that weigh about 500 lbs. each...  Don't know of anyone making those in USB.  Which is a shame, because they make that game feel really frantic when there're a ton of ICBMs coming down the screen and you have to move the cursor against the weight of that behemoth to get to where they're falling before they rain radioactive death upon civilisation.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165992198365

 

https://arcadeblogger.com/2016/07/29/the-secret-history-of-the-arcade-trackball/

 

https://www.candlepin.com/product-category/bowling-balls/ - this is where you could get an equivalent.

 

If you know your shit, you could make one with the parts that do exists. Oh, you can get the ball.... a 4.5" candlepin bowling ball. These are smaller than the regular bowling balls that have finger holes. All the other parts can be had for most of those are generic electronic components with modern made equivalent. The main thing is that you are basically rolling a bowling ball in place and have to have an apparatus to keep it in place but at around 2 lbs and 5 to 7 ounces, you'll be okay. You wouldn't want to drop the ball on your toe or anything but it's something you can get easily.

 

A tabletop missile command controller with actual candlepin bowling ball used (what was used in the arcade unit), inside a sturdy box is doable and can be made to be able to plug into a USB port and played with authentic feel as the arcade game and be the closest you get to playing the actual arcade game in the exact original arcade system. Main difference may be exact height of the controls. In typical arcades, you were standing not sitting while at home, you are usually playing while sitting.

 

Unless you are wanting customers to pay $600-$700 for a Missile Command Control panel or such with the authentic large 4.5" trackball (set of 4 being $260 give or take and you use one per unit of product being around $70-$80 per ball with S&H cost for you to get the balls shipped to you for assembly) then $300-$400 in misc. bill of material and a little profit. It's just a wild ass guess but its possible that such could be closer to $1000 in order to make about $50-$100 profit) not including s&h to customer. We're talking easily $1000 for the authentic experience of the controls that ledzep would love for authentic Missile Command experience. 

 

As a young child/early teen, I can easily understand how it may felt like 500 lbs. of course it didn't weigh that much but weighed a bit more than modern track balls weigh. It's not that difficult for a person you knows programmable logic device programming to make a usb interface controller to take the signals and convert to usb and then a person to write up drivers.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wildstar

[ledzep]

6 hours ago, JPF997 said:

I have never played any game using track balls, paddles and spinners in my life, I make do with my dual sense  PS5 controller to play these games, the arcade version's are more difficult to play but the console port's like the 7800 version's feel a lot better when using analog sticks.

 

Never!?  I mean, not even just to try them out?  That seems odd for a gamer in general, to not want to try the most different things, the most options available.  I don't mean use them all the time, just to get that unique experience to compare to.  The arcade games with those special controllers are actually a little easier to operate than with just analog sticks.  Doesn't make the game easier, just a little less chance of dying because you're "doing it wrong" with the wrong controller.

 

You can't know if the ports feel a lot better or not with using analog sticks until you compare to playing those games with their correct controllers.  I'm curious, are there any "retro" arcades around you that have some of the classic games?  Usually those places are pay $20 to get it and play free for an hour or something.  Do yourself a favor and try it the "real" way, you will gain a lot of perspective about why arcade fans like me and others recommend the correct controllers and actual arcade cabinets over ports on game consoles with gamepads.  I know, for me personally, no game that was designed for a trak-ball feels the same or as smooth to play with analog sticks.  It's much harder to get your gun or cursor or whatever positioned correctly.  Same goes for spinners/paddles.  I suck at Major Havoc with the correct controller (the roller) but I'm even worse with the conversion cabinets that have a trak-ball or spinner in place of the roller.  It really does matter.  Also, if you can get to a good retro arcade, hopefully you can find games like Asteroids/Asteroids Deluxe, Space Wars, Rip-Off, Star Castle, Space Duel, that have only buttons for controls.  If only you could try Lunar Lander in the arcade to appreciate how fucking hard it is to land successfully after the first level.

 

6 hours ago, JPF997 said:

And since you insisted here's my most recent gameplay sessions on centipede and asteroids:

 

Again, that's sort of what I expected.  Not picking on you, that looks almost exactly like what I probably looked like the first time I played either game.  The goddamn buttons for Asteroids make the game a bit more difficult than using a joystick (or spinner) and the asteroids moving at odd angles and much different speeds catches up to you, especially with no power-ups to protect you (hyperspace is a gamble).  As the game progresses it gets harder, especially the saucers, though the really good players figured out how to leave a few asteroids left and just hunt the saucers for points.  That seemed a bit boring to me, I wanted the asteroids around, too.

 

Do you see that there's more variety in terms of the speed of the asteroids and the saucers in the arcade version?  Everything in the recharged version moves at a snail's pace, the saucers are no threat, the game is made more for collecting power-ups than clearing out the asteroids.

 

Same goes for Centipede.  Do you agree that the feel of the arcade version is different than the 7800 version, even with the same controller you're using?  Having less side-to-side room changes things a lot, I think the bugs are slightly smaller so it's harder to get the aim right.  And that spider starts losing patience with you in the next few levels you didn't reach yet, everything gets a little faster, a little faster.  You shouldn't slice the centipede up so quickly when it's far away from you, by the time it gets down to where you are in the later levels there's like 6 things you need to try to kill and they're moving faster.  Less room side-to-side (like in the 7800 version) also makes the centipedes spend less time away from you.

 

Do you understand my complaint with the recharged version about wanting to be able to see what's going on behind the giant flashy explosions?  The better players will wait until the centipede is zig-zagging between 2 or 3 mushrooms and then blast the whole confined bug as it descends, it's a cool maneuver, especially later when everything is moving at a faster pace and there's less time to deal with everything.

[Wildstar]

5 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Never!?  I mean, not even just to try them out?  That seems odd for a gamer in general, to not want to try the most different things, the most options available.  I don't mean use them all the time, just to get that unique experience to compare to.  The arcade games with those special controllers are actually a little easier to operate than with just analog sticks.  Doesn't make the game easier, just a little less chance of dying because you're "doing it wrong" with the wrong controller.

 

You can't know if the ports feel a lot better or not with using analog sticks until you compare to playing those games with their correct controllers.  I'm curious, are there any "retro" arcades around you that have some of the classic games?  Usually those places are pay $20 to get it and play free for an hour or something.  Do yourself a favor and try it the "real" way, you will gain a lot of perspective about why arcade fans like me and others recommend the correct controllers and actual arcade cabinets over ports on game consoles with gamepads.  I know, for me personally, no game that was designed for a trak-ball feels the same or as smooth to play with analog sticks.  It's much harder to get your gun or cursor or whatever positioned correctly.  Same goes for spinners/paddles.  I suck at Major Havoc with the correct controller (the roller) but I'm even worse with the conversion cabinets that have a trak-ball or spinner in place of the roller.  It really does matter.  Also, if you can get to a good retro arcade, hopefully you can find games like Asteroids/Asteroids Deluxe, Space Wars, Rip-Off, Star Castle, Space Duel, that have only buttons for controls.  If only you could try Lunar Lander in the arcade to appreciate how fucking hard it is to land successfully after the first level.

 

 

Again, that's sort of what I expected.  Not picking on you, that looks almost exactly like what I probably looked like the first time I played either game.  The goddamn buttons for Asteroids make the game a bit more difficult than using a joystick (or spinner) and the asteroids moving at odd angles and much different speeds catches up to you, especially with no power-ups to protect you (hyperspace is a gamble).  As the game progresses it gets harder, especially the saucers, though the really good players figured out how to leave a few asteroids left and just hunt the saucers for points.  That seemed a bit boring to me, I wanted the asteroids around, too.

 

Do you see that there's more variety in terms of the speed of the asteroids and the saucers in the arcade version?  Everything in the recharged version moves at a snail's pace, the saucers are no threat, the game is made more for collecting power-ups than clearing out the asteroids.

 

Same goes for Centipede.  Do you agree that the feel of the arcade version is different than the 7800 version, even with the same controller you're using?  Having less side-to-side room changes things a lot, I think the bugs are slightly smaller so it's harder to get the aim right.  And that spider starts losing patience with you in the next few levels you didn't reach yet, everything gets a little faster, a little faster.  You shouldn't slice the centipede up so quickly when it's far away from you, by the time it gets down to where you are in the later levels there's like 6 things you need to try to kill and they're moving faster.  Less room side-to-side (like in the 7800 version) also makes the centipedes spend less time away from you.

 

Do you understand my complaint with the recharged version about wanting to be able to see what's going on behind the giant flashy explosions?  The better players will wait until the centipede is zig-zagging between 2 or 3 mushrooms and then blast the whole confined bug as it descends, it's a cool maneuver, especially later when everything is moving at a faster pace and there's less time to deal with everything.

I have a Microsoft trackball but nothing like the size and weightiness of rolling a 2-1/3 lbs. candlepin bowling ball. It's also kind of on the side as it is designed to be controlled by the thumb not the palm/fingers as in the Atari trackball were. Yes, I have played the original arcade. It's very possible for such to be made because the bowling balls are still made and with similar weight and close enough feel for a close replication of the feel of the original.

[ledzep]

3 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

I have a similar take on that thought.  I don't really feel bad for younger gamers, but I do feel a bit saddened when all these new collections, AT Games garbage, etc introduce people to those games in a manner that's guaranteed to leave a negative impression.  And I've seen it plenty.

 

As just one example, I've seen my kids and their friends try to play Warlords and Circus Atari on some garbage At Games Blast collection that I picked up (the one with paddles) and of course their reaction was "this is garbage... how'd you ever play this junk when you were a kid?  But when I let them play the originals on real hardware, they loved both.   So in and of itself, all that collection did was convince people those games are barely playable crap.

 

 

 

Agreed.  I mean, it's sort of impossible to get the arcade experience at home.  Even with MAME, unless that is running in a multi-cab with real controllers, it's not right.  A friend of mine has a cocktail (4-player) Warlords (lucky bastard) and we've played it a few times during some get-togethers, it's easily the most popular game in his collection.  And he's got quite a few.  I used to have the most (7 in my place) but I introduced him to the idea of buying arcade games, now I think he's got twice as many as I do, hahaaha.  2600 Warlords ain't bad, either, on a 2600 with 4 players.

 

I can play those lesser versions because I'm used to the 2600 (grew up with it, not encountering it years later when far better consoles exist to compare to and ridicule it, hahaaha) and I had those same games at home.  But, ya, those primitive versions ain't the arcade version, no way.  Yet some people look at both and think they're basically equal.  Fools!

 

Do you mean this thing?

 

 

Egh, sounds like I would want to throw that thing out a window because of the controller lag alone.  Even those same games on an actual 2600 would be better though I can see how people used to Playstations and XBoxes would mock the shit out of the 2600 with its LEGO graphics.  I'm guessing those are spinners, not paddles, in order to get that menu selection thing to work?  Maybe not.

[Wildstar]

26 minutes ago, ledzep said:

 

Never!?  I mean, not even just to try them out?  That seems odd for a gamer in general, to not want to try the most different things, the most options available.  I don't mean use them all the time, just to get that unique experience to compare to.  The arcade games with those special controllers are actually a little easier to operate than with just analog sticks.  Doesn't make the game easier, just a little less chance of dying because you're "doing it wrong" with the wrong controller.

 

You can't know if the ports feel a lot better or not with using analog sticks until you compare to playing those games with their correct controllers.  I'm curious, are there any "retro" arcades around you that have some of the classic games?  Usually those places are pay $20 to get it and play free for an hour or something.  Do yourself a favor and try it the "real" way, you will gain a lot of perspective about why arcade fans like me and others recommend the correct controllers and actual arcade cabinets over ports on game consoles with gamepads.  I know, for me personally, no game that was designed for a trak-ball feels the same or as smooth to play with analog sticks.  It's much harder to get your gun or cursor or whatever positioned correctly.  Same goes for spinners/paddles.  I suck at Major Havoc with the correct controller (the roller) but I'm even worse with the conversion cabinets that have a trak-ball or spinner in place of the roller.  It really does matter.  Also, if you can get to a good retro arcade, hopefully you can find games like Asteroids/Asteroids Deluxe, Space Wars, Rip-Off, Star Castle, Space Duel, that have only buttons for controls.  If only you could try Lunar Lander in the arcade to appreciate how fucking hard it is to land successfully after the first level.

 

 

Again, that's sort of what I expected.  Not picking on you, that looks almost exactly like what I probably looked like the first time I played either game.  The goddamn buttons for Asteroids make the game a bit more difficult than using a joystick (or spinner) and the asteroids moving at odd angles and much different speeds catches up to you, especially with no power-ups to protect you (hyperspace is a gamble).  As the game progresses it gets harder, especially the saucers, though the really good players figured out how to leave a few asteroids left and just hunt the saucers for points.  That seemed a bit boring to me, I wanted the asteroids around, too.

 

Do you see that there's more variety in terms of the speed of the asteroids and the saucers in the arcade version?  Everything in the recharged version moves at a snail's pace, the saucers are no threat, the game is made more for collecting power-ups than clearing out the asteroids.

 

Same goes for Centipede.  Do you agree that the feel of the arcade version is different than the 7800 version, even with the same controller you're using?  Having less side-to-side room changes things a lot, I think the bugs are slightly smaller so it's harder to get the aim right.  And that spider starts losing patience with you in the next few levels you didn't reach yet, everything gets a little faster, a little faster.  You shouldn't slice the centipede up so quickly when it's far away from you, by the time it gets down to where you are in the later levels there's like 6 things you need to try to kill and they're moving faster.  Less room side-to-side (like in the 7800 version) also makes the centipedes spend less time away from you.

 

Do you understand my complaint with the recharged version about wanting to be able to see what's going on behind the giant flashy explosions?  The better players will wait until the centipede is zig-zagging between 2 or 3 mushrooms and then blast the whole confined bug as it descends, it's a cool maneuver, especially later when everything is moving at a faster pace and there's less time to deal with everything.

One thing is those CRTs screens were only about the size of a TV CRT. Modern LCD screens have far more screen real-estate. So, being optically smaller (a ratio factoring distance t screen), and there was a difference in screen ratio. Added to it, the CRT fidelity and typical CRT effects like the scanlines and other artifacts of CRTs, color edge blending between adjacent pixels and such has an effect of the experience. Rolling a 2 lb.+ bowling ball, in case of Missile Command and games that used the trackball in the arcades which were not in the home consoles.... even when they had trackballs, they were lighter weight and smaller.

 

There will be differences even if the graphics were exactly the same and the music. Even the whole difference in playing standing in the crowd... that arcade experience and noise versus playing sitting as is common for console game playing.

 

When you talk about the experience between the two, it won't be the same experience. Even the arcade experience may feel different standing vs playing the arcade with a stool to sit on.

 

Comparing 'experience' opens a pandora's box of opinions for sure.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wildstar