I wonder when it will be that people will become nostalgic for RF (and composite)

[eightbit]

Over the decades I have seen some really amazing advances to the classic game consoles I had grown up with from the Atari VCS to consoles from the 80's, 90's and beyond. And, over the years there has been a real drive to obtain better video quality out of all of them for obvious reasons. Some of those old consoles (SMS, Genesis, etc.) already had RGB functionality but many of us never knew we could tap into it until many years later. Others required modding to obtain the best signal. Some required specialized cables, expensive scan doublers and so on. All to achieve the "best" signal possible.

 

I went down this rabbit hole some years ago until I had everything connected to a 4K display with each console displaying the most pupil slicing graphical crispness you can imagine. 

 

So what happened after that?

 

Well, I just wasn't happy with it. I had realized that while my nostalgia was in the original consoles and games, MOST of it was with the original look of the games that I remember in my mind's eye. And this was not it.

 

I knew all of my consoles and games now looked like "emulation" so to speak....not representative of what I remember playing on the old TV set on the floor on the living room as a kid. I left them hooked up for a while, barely played them, and sold them off in favor of an FPGA solution because the FPGA solution looked exactly like them anyway. Ugh...

 

So, I missed the original consoles and started over. No more modding...just leave them as is and experience them as they were intended. 7800 with RF? Yep. NES with composite? Yep. CRT TV? Of course.

 

Now I love the hobby again. As good (or as bad) as the video looks....it looks like how I remember. It's funny too as I see filters for emulators and FPGA cores that try to mimic this stuff now. Amazing.

 

I can't be the only one nostalgic for "bad video", right? And the funny thing is, it's not really "bad" when hooked up to an old set. I just sat down to some 7800 games tonight with the system connected via RF to a 17 inch Magnavox CRT from the 90's and it looked pretty amazing...to me at least

Edited September 15, 2023 by eightbit

[M-S]

Maybe you are nostalgic about CRT themselves, and not the video signals, don't you think?

[eightbit]

Just now, M-S said:

Maybe you are nostalgic about CRT themselves, and not the video signals, don't you think?

 

You need the consoles and their video signals feeding into the CRT's as well. So, to correct you I am nostalgic for the experience as a whole.

[M-S]

I mean, some CRTs have S-Video and Component video too, and these are signals of higher quality.

[eightbit]

2 minutes ago, M-S said:

I mean, some CRTs have S-Video and Component video too, and these are signals of higher quality.

 

Yup. I have some things connected to component and s-video as well to one of my CRT's (Sony Wega).

 

What I am saying is that I have realized that "settling" with video output from certain consoles that were the default connections is actually something I now prefer. Take the 7800 for example. The default factory output setting was RF with no composite, s-video or component connection available to the end user. Sure, you can mod the console and tap into things (or use a 7800XM now for RGB) and while I do think they are excellent options to finally see the 7800 at full potential regarding video clarity, the better the video is over that stock RF that I had played it on for decades the less I am nostalgic for it. I am just used to the way the video output looked on a 7800 for so many years (in RF, with all of its flaws) that when I see it "upgraded" it doesn't give me the same feeling.

 

I am probably one of a very select few like I assume

[Austin]

I went down the rabbit hole of scalers and RGB primarily for the purpose of streaming and recording. That eventually became the primary way I played. It was fine and everything was crispy and I appreciated it, but over the last couple of years I have found myself going back to CRTs. First with converting RGB to component, and now in many cases I just hook up the consoles with composite. I use Trinitrons and so even with composite I have found the image is still crisp. I did toy with RF for grins, and while it will look fine on a 13” display, it was too much in the opposite direction for my 32”. Composite is a good balance, especially for the 8 and 16-bit eras. Genesis in particular is really cool with it because I get the rainbow banding effects in Sonic the Hedgehog and Vectorman. I still need the RGB for recording (and I will also use FPGA consoles in some cases for a crispy image), but when I am just playing for fun on a CRT I have found composite is perfectly acceptable—good, even! It’s unfortunately been demonized over the years, and with recording for viewing on YouTube or playing on a HD display it is understandable, but on the tech it was meant to be viewed on, it’s quite solid.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Austin

[CatPix]

Being that I grew up with consoles that natively had RGB, I have little affection for composite and RF.

Note that I am content with consumer level RGB from SCART. All the effort to get supernaturally scaled and stuff signals... Heck, why not buying a 36 cm LCD TV instead so the signal isn't stretched over a cinema-wide display?

RGB modded yes... but nothing more.

[BassGuitari]

I might be nostalgic for RF and composite if I had never stopped using them in the first place. 😜

 

[DJ Clae]

Oh, this thread is late. RF nosalgia already happened in the Twitter retrogaming community some time ago.

 

https://x.com/8bitesquire/status/1581595995728539649?s=20

[newtmonkey]

Fun topic!  This is a rabbit hole I've been going down now for some time.  Ten years ago I had my consoles hooked up to a PVM monitor (SCART RGB of course)... but now I play all of my consoles connected to the flat screen in my living room via a Retrotink 5x Pro using s-video or even composite cables, and I love the look.  The AV Famicom and PC Engine CoreGrafx look absolutely fantastic over composite imo.  I've also been using s-video for my PSX and Super Famicom, and I really like how it looks, even compared with SCART RGB.

 

@eightbit

I liked what you wrote about the "default" settings for consoles.  I'm on the same wavelength!  I started out trying to get RGB connections for all my consoles, but now just use the best type of connection they natively support, or even the best type of connection that was officially supported.  That means composite for the AV Famicom and PC Engine CoreGrafx, s-video for the N64, and composite for the Mega Drive (supports RGB natively, but Sega never released an RGB cable officially in Japan AFAIK).

Edited September 15, 2023 by newtmonkey

[Razzie.P]

 Not me.  I spent those childhood years wishing the thing looked "cleaner/clearer.". So no nostalgia for that bit of sadness.

[eightbit]

2 hours ago, DJ Clae said:

Oh, this thread is late. RF nosalgia already happened in the Twitter retrogaming community some time ago.

 

https://x.com/8bitesquire/status/1581595995728539649?s=20

 

Yeah, but we aren't a bunch of Twits here!

[eightbit]

1 hour ago, Razzie.P said:

 Not me.  I spent those childhood years wishing the thing looked "cleaner/clearer.". So no nostalgia for that bit of sadness.

 

I get that in a way. When I started playing consoles as a kid I was using a 13 inch B/W TV that was terrible. It's all I had but even then I knew it was bad. I don't have any nostalgia for that at all

[+remowilliams]

2 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

 Not me.  I spent those childhood years wishing the thing looked "cleaner/clearer.". So no nostalgia for that bit of sadness.

 

Exactly.  I detested having to live with crappy video because that's the best that I could do at the time, and started hooking up everything possible via s-vid when I finally got a nice little TV that supported it.

 

RF was horrible then, it's horrible now.

 

 

[Emehr]

I think there's a sweet spot in that later 8-bit (NES/SMS) and 16-bit era (Genesis/SuperNES/Turbo) where the games just look better on CRT. The pixel sizes were at just the right size to take advantage of that CRT blending byproduct. Games like Golden Axe or Super Metroid just don't look right without it.

 

Earlier games in the 2600/Intellivision/Colecovision era had large blocky graphics and few colors so there weren't a lot of gradients happening in the artwork so the games look fine on either CRT or LCD. Same with handhelds. Lynx was fairly low-res and the colors onscreen were low so I'd prefer to just play on LCD. Same with GameBoy/Color. GameBoy Advance, however, mimics the look of SuperNES games and I gotta say, the games look very good on CRT.

 

At the other end of the CRT-sweet spot era are the N64 and PlayStation games where the higher pixel resolution didn't benefit much from the CRT blending so again, I can play any of those on either technologies (CRT or LCD) and be content.

 

So, in my case at least, I don't think it's nostalgia. It's more, "what looks better". To me, it's seems to be all dependent on both the pixel dimensions and color depth of the game.

[eightbit]

Thankfully we did have ONE good color TV in the house. My grandmother owned the house and she had the best TV in it of course. A 19 inch color...something. Maybe an RCA but I just can't remember.

 

Now that TV looked great via RF. She let me connect my Atari and NES in her room and play. In my teen years I finally got myself a nice TV with all of the bells and whistles. 

[eightbit]

18 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

 

RF was horrible then, it's horrible now.

 

 

 

This however I cannot agree with. I know for a fact that RF can look great depending on the console, RF signal and cable used. Many years back I picked up an Intellivision for example and connected it to a CRT that was donated to me from a local bar. I was floored at the clarity over RF. It looked just as good as any clean composite connection I had seen. I have experienced the same with the 5200 and 7800.

 

Those old black thick RF cables that came with the consoles of that era are some of the secret. I have a bunch of them and any time I come across one I add it to my "wires to keep" bin. Something about these cables (thickness? shielding?) keep the image looking great. I have a 7800 hooked up to a 17 inch Magnavox TV in the living room right now using one of those cables and it looks superb. I also use one of those little coax adapters to the TV instead of the old TV/Game switchbox.

 

I recall friends over the years connecting to RF using what they had...usually a composite cable. It never looked good with those.

[Tanooki]

10 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

 Not me.  I spent those childhood years wishing the thing looked "cleaner/clearer.". So no nostalgia for that bit of sadness.

I felt the same.  Once emulation was in its infancy with Nintendo 8bit (1995-96) and despite it being a PC CRT style monitor I was made very well aware of how clean something could be, how sharp, given those screens did 1024x768 if not a notch higher.  I I never liked the smear of RF where things would streak a little, especially the white or red smudge, hated it, so as soon as I had the ability I ran the RCA cable and found a way to clean it up, but it hit the cap.  As nice I could get that SNES looking in that time, it still with the baby SNES emulators like VSMC showed me the detail that was still being lost, even if it was less so than RF.  Once I could get a home LCD, the earlier 720p sets had minimal lag since they didn't do so much of that lag sucking processing, and the PC side didn't have the issue.  I got spoiled by it, saw it go better and better.  The most jarring to the 2D side was done, but then 3D, the Gamecube once I could see it with the HDMI adapter some 5+ years ago, or earlier emulation with Dolphin...UGH, high levels of intended to see textures and detail ruined by the vaseline substandard smear of SD.  I keep a PVM around, a small one for the NES/FC playing on light gun and for other fast start moments, but that's it.  My Neo Geo still has it's original 25" too, but I can't go back, it's just too fuzzy.  I'm fine simulating a bit of it using my HD systems that are modded or do as is (analogue) but it's a fine line of adding a soft scan line, and having blurry garbage.

[+madman]

I feel you to some degree, when I use upscalers I have to use a scanline feature. Same when I use my Analogue Pocket, I like the features that mimic the original displays. Playing with pixel perfection does indeed feel as though I'm playing an emulator. But wanting to go back to lesser quality? Negative for me, as soon as I had an s-video capable TV I was all about that signal. And even today I'm happy with consoles that "only" output s-video, I've yet to mod anything for HDMI, although I do plan to get a second 2600 to composite/s-video mod so it can be used on an upscaler. 

[eightbit]

I have had quite a many console modded, and have modded many consoles myself. But, I have rethought that over the past few years.

 

I am not "modding" any console again. When I speak of "modding" I am talking about adding additional hardware to the internals and modifying the case shells to those consoles to accommodate those mods. I had decided some time ago to "keep it real" with my consoles. I never liked the idea of performing destructive modifications to these systems and I still don't like it no matter how small the destruction is (i.e.: small drill holes, etc.)

 

If there is a non destructive option (like the 7800 GD...that is a great solution!) I am for it. But if the method of attack is destructive to the stock console I am out. I feel more and more vintage consoles are being drilled and cut through every day. It started to actually get difficult for me to find unadulterated consoles because of how widespread at home modding has become. And, not a lot of it was exactly pro modding I can tell you.

 

While I am on the topic of great solutions I will bring the Satiator (Sega Saturn) up too. What a great solution. I have modded dozens of Saturns over the years (mod chip installs, later Fenrir and other solutions that had you gut the system) but this Satiator solution opened my eyes. Maybe there could be a good non destructive solution for ALL vintage consoles with some thought?

 

To each their own of course, but my path now is to obtain good working unopened ("un-played with") stock game consoles and use them with the best possible video connections they offer...and that is it. If the console is to be opened it will be for repair if it needs it...but nothing else. Of course part replacement internally is inevitable in some cases like replacing caps, worn power switches and so on. But I am going to try my darnedest to keep those to a minimal...only what is needed to keep the console functional.  

 

The only exceptions I think I will make will be with portable systems with dead or dying screens. Stuff like Game Gear or Lynx where the screen is getting so bad that the console is unplayable simply because you can't SEE it. For those cases I will forgive myself if I have to drop in a modern LCD replacement. 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by eightbit

[Steven Pendleton]

PC Engine composite is pretty good, but other than that, S-video or better for everything is the way to do it. Fortunately, I have little interest in consoles that don't have native RGB out, although this is just a coincidence, and the Wondermega is an exception.

 

11 hours ago, newtmonkey said:

Sega never released an RGB cable officially in Japan AFAIK

There are officially licensed S-video/RGB boxes: the Micomsoft XMD series. Not sure how good they are, but they are pretty easy to find.

[+madman]

Well, the Saturn (and some others) are a bit unique with the external ports. You've got the same thing w/the earlier PSX's that can use the IO port for the PSIO and the 3do with the ODE for the external port. So it's not always a matter of people didn't think through things properly, it's what is there to work with. You can't expect an external plug-in ODE for the NGCD for example. Some of the HDMI mods that have 3D printed parts instead of drilling are interesting, but again going back to the N64, I'm perfectly fine with its s-video output. And Gamecube, instead of modding it's easy enough to find a model w/the digital out. That all said...thats just me, I get some people are fine with drilling holes and HDMI output and all that. 

 

As for LCD mods, I'm keeping my OG Lynx 2 original, but grabbed a second one for a BenVenn screen. My TurboExpress will remain OG even though a larger screen can be installed. Devices like the Analog Pocket and the Chinese emulator machines are a better solution IMO than modding an original handheld. Or grabbing a cheap Vita and modding that for emulators. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well for me it is a bit more complex. I only ever used RF back in the day as I didn't get any console newer than the 7800 before going to PC gaming. It wasn't until I got back into retro gaming in the late 90s early 00s that started to pick up and play on the systems I never had after the 7800. But here is the thing. At that time, I was still using CRTs for all normal TV viewing in the house and on my computer. Once the ITC moved to its current home, that is when I started to upgrade all of the AV stuff to large flat panels in the rooms to watch shows and movies on. I also got rid of the 32" CRT I'd been using in the game room up to that time to a new 48" flat panel. And the first time I saw how the old systems looked on it, I was... well I couldn't handle it LOL! The one that really really made me decide to see if there were better options to get better video output from my consoles was the Genesis when trying to play Shadowrun. The text was unreadable through composite on my LCD and nothing I did could correct that. So... It became the first console in my collection to get an AV upgrade. Installed a hand done s-video board I made into it and I just do NOT see myself ever going back to anything less.

 

For me RF on newer displays even when it can lock in and tune into the signal, is just muddy, constantly looks like it is going in and out of focus, and much too dark. As I also have more modern systems that can take advantage of a modern display and NO room for more than a single large flat panel, I have no reason, nor drive to put anything back onto CRT for normal use. I do have a small PVM in the lab I use for composite and color calibration stuff. But I do NOT use it for normal gaming as the display is quite small (8") and growing up, I was playing 2600 on a color 19" Magnavox so a smaller CRT doesn't appeal to me either. I want to sit back 6 - 10ft away on the couch in the game room and play my games on a nice large display that I can see clearly and just enjoy it all. And for me, my consoles with various AV upgrades in them is how that works for me.

 

So I can only say that I can understand why folks still prefer to use CRTs for their classic consoles. But for me personally, I will always prefer the near emulation quality output I get from all of them now.

[Tanooki]

@madman  Some months ago while some would consider it a bit small I got a Panasonic 9" Color monitor (PVM) so I have been CRT gaming again, kind of, it lacks the bs, and it's on a tier of the nice post 2000 Trinitron screens in clarity, and while I'm using RCA cables it is very sharply s-video capable too.  I could not stomach going back to a standard CRT, the Neo Geo's 25" kind of irks me but I'm not capable of swapping it out without some sad compromises of the cabinet/bezel/mount itself or I would. :\  I'm ok with a partial regression, on the NES/SNES era stuff I can deal with the PVM and that's the lowest point, and I think it's a fair non-consumer compromise.

 

When it comes to the HiDefNES Kit (my top loader), Super Nt, Mega Sg, UltraHDMI N64, and my external HDMI adapter on the Cube I'm all for 1080p.  I don't mind going with or without the slight twinge of scanline, but nothing they grossly overkill do on default as it's quite bad.  It's more like the PVM where it's not really there but it is there since the clarity is there yet you can see it's not HD, it's again, a midground, despite it outputting at HD levels.  It's wishy washy but works, yet I'm cool just having a clean image on a PC emulator via color monitor or LCD/LED display it's all the same to me in the end, clean, crisp, sharp, no visual degradation.

 

That said some systems go high ball clean and clear even on RCA over a modern TV, and @Steven Pendleton is on the nose, whatever juju that NEC was working with the PCE/CG/CG2 and Duo line of consoles are insanely clean, clear, and utterly beautiful even on a 1080 HDMI panel from 15 years ago or 5 weeks ago.  It's the one system I never bothered to waste time HDMI upgrading, it didn't need it.

[Lord Innit]

I always wanted my consoles to give the nice crisp, vibrant images that you got in the arcade. So, RF holds no nostalgia for me. Just had to put up with it til something better came along.