Living Room Arcade Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) @ZeroPage Homebrew and @Albert Good points. I don't know the answer, but perhaps here's a clue. A homebrew developer will typically pay to have a limited number of carts made with his game on it. He'll announce how many carts were made and that they're for sale, send him a pm and it's yours and when they're gone, they're gone. That's a typical homebrewer. Now look at Atari, Audacity Games and Champ Games. They all have a brand, a website and an online store. There appears to be NO LIMIT to the number of games they'll sell. They may run out of stock temporarily, but, generally, if you keep sending them more money, I think they'll keep making more games. Like Jay Leno in the Doritos commercial saying, "Crunch all you want, we'll make more!" I offer that as food for thought. It's not a definition, but I hope it is helpful to think about what is the difference between "homebrew" and "commercial." Edited February 27 by Living Room Arcade 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Living Room Arcade Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) Three categories: individual homebrews, Atari Age-licensed homebrews and commercial releases. individual homebrews - limited number of carts, no profit motive Atari Age-licensed homebrews - a limited number of carts, maybe some profit but profit is not the main motive commercial releases - unlimited number of carts, profit is the main motive Edited February 27 by Living Room Arcade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 10 minutes ago, Living Room Arcade said: Three categories: individual homebrews, Atari Age-licensed homebrews and commercial releases. individual homebrews - limited number of carts, no profit motive Atari Age-licensed homebrews - a limited number of carts, maybe some profit but profit is not the main motive commercial releases - unlimited number of carts, profit is the main motive My opinion is No. individual homebrews - limited number of carts, no profit motive First, I assume you mean "individual homebrewers" and not "homebrews". And why do they have to be limited in number or have no profit motive? While most homebrew authors are creating games because they enjoy doing so, some individuals do have profits in mind as well. And some have made multiple runs of their game or games over time as demand warrants. Atari Age-licensed homebrews - a limited number of carts, maybe some profit but profit is not the main motive Again with "limited number of carts", nearly all games listed in the AtariAge Store have been available "indefinitely" and have been built on demand. The main exception to this are the games removed last summer, but that was a unique situation. And while profit isn't the main motive, that profit has been used to keep AtariAge up and running without placing ads on the website, to invest in new hardware (such as expensive printers) to improve the quality of homebrew production), to attend shows like PRGE (which is expensive and time consuming), and so forth. commercial releases - unlimited number of carts, profit is the main motive Why do commercial releases have to be unlimited? Why does profit have to be the main motive? There are plenty of commercial ventures releasing limited numbers of games -- look at Limited Run Games as an example. Atari's done the same thing with the XP carts they've been making (typically limited to 500 or 1,000 games in a run, for instance). I do not support pigeonholing games using the criteria you described above. ..Al 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZeroPage Homebrew Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 34 minutes ago, Living Room Arcade said: Three categories: individual homebrews, Atari Age-licensed homebrews and commercial releases. individual homebrews - limited number of carts, no profit motive Atari Age-licensed homebrews - a limited number of carts, maybe some profit but profit is not the main motive commercial releases - unlimited number of carts, profit is the main motive Thank you for your opinions on how the Atari Homebrew Awards should be run. Unfortunately your ideas are a radical departure and antithetical to how I run them. I think you underestimate the number of hours it takes to create a homebrew game and nobody is getting rich off of making games. The commercial aspect does not play, and in my opinion should not play, even the smallest role in the evaluation of how much fun a game is. I also do not wish to start splintering games based on publisher and the method by which they sell or don't sell their games. Your opinions have been noted as they have been in the past. - James 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles N Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Albert said: that profit has been used to keep AtariAge up and running without placing ads on the website, to invest in new hardware (such as expensive printers) to improve the quality of homebrew production), … I’ll throw in here: and that quality really shows! The stuff I’ve ordered from the AA-store is like buying physical new games back in the old days, - not just picked off the shelves but like sent from the factory… Hard to believe such quality could be maintained without some costs - given time spent, materials used, assembly and all that. Moreover, I think the most important thing is to encourage the homebrew-scene to keep it going… - - - Of course, the recent changes have made me wonder if some future-scenario would see ‘classics’ come back in a more official form… (I hope so, but if the homebrews will drift in a more original direction, for what AA is concerned, - as long as production and creation happens, I’m fairly satisfied. Goodness, I would think Atari is pretty ‘indebted’ to longtime retro-gamers for them being around, being a name, a brand remembered and fairly recognized. Not all of it of course - which is just history as they started the broad commercial home-video game industry -, yet, 1972 or 1977 begins to be quite a while ago-, and the ones who’ve kept the classic consoles alive are… the homebrewers…) Edited February 27 by Giles N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 5 hours ago, Living Room Arcade said: commercial releases - unlimited number of carts, profit is the main motive I doubt profit is the main motivation for ChampGames. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Living Room Arcade Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) I read the above comments. Thank you. @Albert and @ZeroPage Homebrew Thank you for your kind replies. I'm a big fan of Atari Age homebrews. And I'm very happy to hear that proceeds from sales at the AA Store have gone towards the upkeep of this website, buying new equipment, organizing events, etc. I want to offer to you guys some feedback about the annual homebrew awards. If I may, let me make an analogy. Think of boxing. Do they assign all of the boxers into one big competition? No, they don't. They separate the boxers by weight. They simply weigh each boxer and assign them to groups according to their weight. Why? It tends to make for more fair fights. Now consider our annual homebrew voting. Shouldn't we also be doing something similar? Because right now it's as if we have all the "boxers" in one big group. Wouldn't the HA's be better in the future if we would divide the contestants into some kind of groups (light, middle and heavy) (or just light and heavy) and let each group compete separately from the other groups? Thank you for listening to my feedback. Edited February 27 by Living Room Arcade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Living Room Arcade Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) I just thought of a suggestion. For a future edition of the AAHA's, why not create a group of homebrew game developers who never won an Atari Age award before and let them compete against each other for an award (or awards)? That would create a competition that doesn't include Champ Games and the other usual winners. It would be easy to implement. Just ask the Nominating Committee to please choose the best so-many new games from game developers who never won a AAHA award before. Call them the "Upcoming Developers Group" or something like that. This exciting group of nominees would feature some talent that I think otherwise might have slipped through the cracks in the current HA set up IMO. What do you guys think? Update: In the boxing analogy, think of "heavy weight" as being any developer who previously won an AAHA award before and "light weight" as being any developer who has never won an AAHA award before. If in a future edition of the AAHA's, if we would separate these two groups then, as in boxing, I think we would have much more fair and interesting competition. What do you guys think? Update 2: What's nice about this suggestion IMO is that it avoids the messy discussion of profit/not seeking profit or part time/full time or homebrew/commercial, etc. (It avoids pigeonholing games @Albert.) To simply divide the entrants into two groups based on their status as being previous AAHA award winners or not is neat and easy, I think. That is an advantage of this suggestion IMO. Edited February 27 by Living Room Arcade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordKraken Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 We all want a fair competition, and I think James has already made a big step in that direction by creating separate categories for original and license-based games (when it's possible). There's still a debate whether games with special chips should compete against OC games, but other than that I think the competition is pretty fair. Your analogy to boxing is incorrect imo. It would make sense if Activision was competing with a brand new 2600 game and team of 15 paid gamedev behind it. This is NOT the case. We are all amateur here, nobody is making a leaving from homebrew dev. At best it pays a nice restaurant once a year, that's it 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+littaum Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Living Room Arcade said: I just thought of a suggestion. For a future edition of the AAHA's, why not create a group of homebrew game developers who never won an Atari Age award before and let them compete against each other for an award (or awards)? That would create a competition that doesn't include Champ Games and the other usual winners. It would be easy to implement. Just ask the Nominating Committee to please choose the best so-many new games from game developers who never won a AAHA award before. Call them the "Upcoming Developers Group" or something like that. This exciting group of nominees would feature some talent that I think otherwise might have slipped through the cracks in the current HA set up IMO. What do you guys think? Update: In the boxing analogy, think of "heavy weight" as being any developer who previously won an AAHA award before and "light weight" as being any developer who has never won an AAHA award before. If in a future edition of the AAHA's, if we would separate these two groups then, as in boxing, I think we would have much more fair and interesting competition. What do you guys think? Update 2: What's nice about this suggestion IMO is that it avoids the messy discussion of profit/not seeking profit or part time/full time or homebrew/commercial, etc. (It avoids pigeonholing games @Albert.) To simply divide the entrants into two groups based on their status as being previous AAHA award winners or not is neat and easy, I think. That is an advantage of this suggestion IMO. Limiting awards to people who have not won before would definitely cheapen the honor of winning said award. And lots of people who never won an award still get featured by their nominations and playthrough. It's an honor simply to be nominated. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, littaum said: It's an honor simply to be nominated. /signed But we should think about that suggestion nevertheless. The main problem will be the number of categories. Edited February 27 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m.o.terra kaesi Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) I like the idea of a "newcomer" category. I love Champ Games, don't get me wrong... but they won five of the last six 2600-port-category awards (if I counted right), so that tends to get a bit predictable. On the other hand: I guess, there are not that many ARM-based games yet to fill an own category, or am I wrong? Edited February 27 by m.o.terra kaesi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, m.o.terra kaesi said: On the other hand: I guess, there are not that many ARM-based games yet to fill an own category, or am I wrong? You are correct. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Living Room Arcade Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) A new category called something like "Upcoming Developers" consisting of the x-number of nominees as selected by the Nominating Committee who meet one single criterion, that none of them had ever won an AAHA award before. I think this is my best suggestion to improve the AAHA's. Please consider it. Thank you all for listening to my suggestion. Edited February 27 by Living Room Arcade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, m.o.terra kaesi said: I like the idea of a "newcomer" category. I love Champ Games, don't get me wrong... but they won five of the last six 2600-port-category awards (if I counted right), so that tends to get a bit predictable. But is that the fault of Champ Games? They are winning the categories because their projects warrant the award. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+splendidnut Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I feel like there is some very aggressive passive-aggressive suggesting going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZeroPage Homebrew Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 Update: I've uploaded the historical spreadsheet of Nominees and Winners with the addition of 6th AHA information on the AHA History & FAQ page. - James 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 7 hours ago, DEBRO said: But is that the fault of Champ Games? They are winning the categories because their projects warrant the award. Definitely not their fault. But to encourage newcomers, a noob-award might be a good idea nevertheless. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m.o.terra kaesi Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Definitely not their fault. But to encourage newcomers, a noob-award might be a good idea nevertheless. Sounds good in my ears... think about it: this is a very common category in sports, music, literature or other Arts. Criteria for selection could be: A) new developers, that never released a game before, or... B) developers that have never been nominated before, or... C) developers, that never won before Edited February 28 by m.o.terra kaesi 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 2/26/2024 at 2:24 PM, SmittyB said: That's a dead horse that's been so thoroughly beaten it's now a Tesco lasagne. That's easily my favorite post of the week. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 12 hours ago, m.o.terra kaesi said: Sounds good in my ears... think about it: this is a very common category in sports, music, literature or other Arts. Criteria for selection could be: A) new developers, that never released a game before, or... B) developers that have never been nominated before, or... C) developers, that never won before @Thomas Jentzsch and @m.o.terra kaesi I see that. If @ZeroPage Homebrew decided to do this then I would lean more to a “Best New Artist” type of category for new emerging homebrewers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZeroPage Homebrew Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, DEBRO said: @Thomas Jentzsch and @m.o.terra kaesi I see that. If @ZeroPage Homebrew decided to do this then I would lean more to a “Best New Artist” type of category for new emerging homebrewers. It's an interesting idea, thank you for the suggestion! As per usual with any proposed category there are so many logistics to think about. It's going to be difficult to determine what their "first game" is and I'll have to know the complete programming history of every single developer that has ever released an Atari game. Do WIPs count or does the game have to be completed? Do they have to be the lead programmer/sound/graphics artist/packaging artist or does contributing a little bit to someone else's game count? Does this apply just for programmers or for sound, graphics, packaging as well? Do games from other platforms count towards their first game or does it only count for Atari games? If this is their first Lynx game but they've made 20 Atari 2600 games, are they a 'new homebrewer' for the Atari 2600? Does every platform need this category, adding several new awards, or just one catch-all? Very challenging, I'll keep it in mind! 🙂 - James 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Living Room Arcade Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said: It's an interesting idea, thank you for the suggestion! As per usual with any proposed category there are so many logistics to think about. It's going to be difficult to determine what their "first game" is and I'll have to know the complete programming history of every single developer that has ever released an Atari game. Do WIPs count or does the game have to be completed? Do they have to be the lead programmer/sound/graphics artist/packaging artist or does contributing a little bit to someone else's game count? Does this apply just for programmers or for sound, graphics, packaging as well? Do games from other platforms count towards their first game or does it only count for Atari games? If this is their first Lynx game but they've made 20 Atari 2600 games, are they a 'new homebrewer' for the Atari 2600? Does every platform need this category, adding several new awards, or just one catch-all? Very challenging, I'll keep it in mind! 🙂 - James Well, Mr. James, that's an advantage of my suggestion. With my suggestion, there are no "logistics," there's nothing to figure out. Just nominate x-number of entrants who never won an AAHA award before. Wouldn't that be easy to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Living Room Arcade Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 On 2/27/2024 at 7:10 PM, splendidnut said: I feel like there is some very aggressive passive-aggressive suggesting going on. Mr. Splendidnut, Maybe I'm the worst human being on the earth. What do you think of my suggestion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZeroPage Homebrew Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 4 minutes ago, Living Room Arcade said: Mr. Splendidnut, Maybe I'm the worst human being on the earth. Please keep interpersonal drama out of the discussion, this thread is for discussing the AHAs. - James 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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