The Harmony Cart works on the 2600+ one game at a time, Awesome!

[Aragorn7]

37 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I think that's wishful thinking. Atari wants to sell carts, the 2600+ is the platform for doing this. Why would they open it for other input. 

 

This has do be done by the community.

You could be right. I only stated what I remember as being previously discussed. I didn't say it would happen. On the other hand, I don't think Atari cares as much about the medium as they do making money. So if an adapter can be made available where they could also sell digital roms with DRM, it's not beyond all likelihood. Or at the very least, they decide to introduce a 2600++ that will. 😄 At this juncture it's all just happy (I hope) speculation whether it be Atari or the community. I'd be fine either way. And if it never happens, I, knowing all of this, bought my 2600+ anyway. I own two 7800s, but not the 2600; so this just seemed like a good looking addition that I could have some fun with.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Aragorn7

[Aragorn7]

9 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Most of the reason it doesn’t work with larger games is the same reason it doesn’t work with some original carts: dumper/bank switching issues. I would bet that once it is sorted for original carts, it will be for the harmony as well.

I agree with you regarding the dumper/bank switching issues, but I don't think a Rom dumper without an expensive interface will ever read a harmony cart in it's current state. Remember, you are only moving one rom into the Harmony directly and not through the SD Card. That's a long way from the 2600+ being able to interface with the Harmony Menu. It's just two different technologies. That's the reason the provided Atari 10 game cart has dip switches so the 2600+ can only see one game at a time. Atari knows this shortcoming, but likely chose the emulation path to keep the costs down, which is understandable even if one might not like it. Plus not everyone has the Harmony Cart. And which cart is going to be the winner -- Harmony, Encore, GameDrive, etc? The GameDrive can read both 2600 and 7800 carts, but at a price higher than the 2600+ and again the current technologies that drive both of them are incompatible.

Now, if I'm wrong on this, I will be happy as a lark and will be thrilled to say you were right! And if it does happen and I never see this post again, just remember I'll be thinking @John Stamos Mullet was right. 😉

[Aragorn7]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Understood. But by apologizing you made him feel that he was right. The more he will be disappointed.

Oh, he already thought he was right. When I realized he was not persuadable, I thought, I'd humbly let him find out for himself. I've had to learn the hard way myself a few times in the past. I guess I can let others do the same. And if you've had teenagers, you know exactly what I'm talking about. 😄

[John Stamos Mullet]

16 minutes ago, Aragorn7 said:

I agree with you regarding the dumper/bank switching issues, but I don't think a Rom dumper without an expensive interface will ever read a harmony cart in it's current state. Remember, you are only moving one rom into the Harmony directly and not through the SD Card. That's a long way from the 2600+ being able to interface with the Harmony Menu. It's just two different technologies. That's the reason the provided Atari 10 game cart has dip switches so the 2600+ can only see one game at a time. Atari knows this shortcoming, but likely chose the emulation path to keep the costs down, which is understandable even if one might not like it. Plus not everyone has the Harmony Cart. And which cart is going to be the winner -- Harmony, Encore, GameDrive, etc? The GameDrive can read both 2600 and 7800 carts, but at a price higher than the 2600+ and again the current technologies that drive both of them are incompatible.

Now, if I'm wrong on this, I will be happy as a lark and will be thrilled to say you were right! And if it does happen and I never see this post again, just remember I'll be thinking @John Stamos Mullet was right. 😉

I’m talking about the ability to dump single roms of any bank switching type on the harmony via the developer/app function. 
 

im not talking about using it with an SD card and the harmony menu. That won’t ever be officially supported and doesn’t really need to be. (And shouldn’t be, in my opinion)

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

A $70 R77 does it for the 2600. SD-card for all the ROMs and the same output as the 2600+.

 

But it misses the iconic look and build quality of the 2600+. Also paddles don't work well and besides joysticks no other controllers will ever be supported. That is why it would be a shame if the 2600+ would stay a closed system.

You get what you pay for.

[Aragorn7]

7 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I’m talking about the ability to dump single roms of any bank switching type on the harmony via the developer/app function. 
 

im not talking about using it with an SD card and the harmony menu. That won’t ever be officially supported and doesn’t really need to be. (And shouldn’t be, in my opinion)

And I spent so much time on that reply, too. Thank you for clarifying. 

[John Stamos Mullet]

4 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Free speech!  I like that everyone can have an opinion.

 

 

 

How to put this?

 

I'm definitely in the middle ground with regards to this product,  yet Very Happy I didn't buy one.  (I'm somewhere in between John Stamos Mullet and E. King,  but leaning towards E. King's viewpoint more and more (but more on that in a sec)).   I will say I don't think it's been stated forcefully enough that this thing will not work with a Harmony cart...Can they figure out a workaround?  While I have my doubts,  It would be Extremely neato if they somehow DID figure it out,  and I don't mean selecting just one (compatible) ROM at a time, ahead of time...

 

I can feel E. King's frustration and largely agree,...All except that they intentionally hampered it!  (That makes no sense at all).

 

No,  my problem with this lies in marketing.  Yes,  we who are on AtariAge, by and large,  know exactly what this product is.  YET,  An Email from AtariAge and advertising this from ATARI ITSELF seems to show the Dream Product!  I imagined myself reading about it like an average consumer...Pretend for a moment that I just looked at Nutari's marketing.  (It appears to be a recreation of the 2600,...While you may not even know the difference between an off the shelf parts recreation, an FPGA, or a ROM dumper/emulator).

 

It starts off:

No Cartridge Left Behind     (Sorry Atari,  This is a blatant lie!  There's Plenty of Carts left behind!  Homebrews, ARM+, DPC etc.  They sent this to AtariAge members!   The average consumer may not know about all of these,  but they're still going to be disappointed that Pitfall! 2 doesn't work)

It continues:

 

Enjoy your favorite Atari 2600 and 7800 games on one system!   Again a lie,  if not a blatant one,  and I doubt they know my Favorites including 7800 and 2600 homebrews etc.

 

It then lists Features:

 

Features

The Atari 2600+ is an updated version of the iconic Atari 2600 and has been enhanced in the following ways:

- Plays both Atari 2600 and 7800 game cartridges
- HDMI output makes it easy to connect
- Widescreen mode
- Enlarged cartridge socket reduces sticking
- Atari logo lights up when being played

 

All Great stuff right?  But...Still No Mention of Incompatibilities, no Mention Yet of Emulation,  Not even an asterix after saying it plays Atari 2600 and 7800 carts...I'd be on the edge of my seat if I didn't already know where this was eventually headed...

 

You are still some clicks away from finding out it is using Emulation...And,  imagining this as an average consumer,  who may have heard about it elsewhere and been led to Atari's website from a different spot.  I mean,  at this point some old timers are already scrambling for their credit cards.  Maybe,  they'll get one and figure it out later.  I suppose as an AtariAger (or maybe the type who spends a lot of time on Youtube watching videos about upcoming products),  there's little excuse for not knowing what this product is,  but for everyone else; (and I say this Not holding it against Atari that they released this as a product),  Atari should have been more forthcoming about what they're selling here.

 

 

See, I wholeheartedly disagree with you here. 
 

“Atari” such as it is in 2023, owns the right to produce this console,  (and license it to others if they choose) and were under no obligation or binding agreement to explain to anyone how it works, or why they chose to not supply a means to run Roms without original carts.

 

They made a new 2600. All it really needs to do is play 2600 and 7800 games from the orig in l carts, which it does, pretty well, in fact. They made a new console, that can read and play 2600 and 7800 carts. That’s it. That is all they need to tell people.
 

The fact that there is a small subset of 2600 fans who are also heavily into the retrogaming/emulation scene is merely a coincidence. They have no responsibility to explain to people why they made it the way they did. As long as the product delivers what the 2600/7800 does from the support of commercially licensed/legal games is concerned is the end of their respective responsibility.

 

will that compatibility expand - most likely, yeah. But it never was required to. 
 

The claim that Atari should have been more forthcoming about what they were selling and how it works is a result of your personal curiosity and desire to use far more recently developed functionality the original 2600 never had in its initial lifecycle. 
 

long story short:

 

You will likely get all or at least most of your wishes fulfilled either officially or unofficially with this product, but Atari were never required to give you what you hoped would be there beyond a new console to play your old, original carts. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by John Stamos Mullet

[+remowilliams]

So I see we're still doing the 'everyone who wants to run a binary is a filthy pirate' thing...  🙄

[CapitanClassic]

It is difficult to get accurate measurements on the percentage of people who pirate. I have heard estimates of 35% of PC Steam users, or 100% of Microsoft WinOS licenses in the Middle East. I would wager that 80%+ of Harmony owners run ROMs they don’t leagally own a license to. I wonder if @Al_Nafuur can determine how many PlusCart users launch a Prototype rom or Rom they are unlikely to own a copy of (say Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Chase Chuckwagon). 

Gabe Newell — Valve

Quote

Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem,” he said. “If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate’s service is more valuable.”

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by CapitanClassic

[John Stamos Mullet]

34 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

So I see we're still doing the 'everyone who wants to run a binary is a filthy pirate' thing...  🙄

No. We're doing the "we all know the truth, so can we cut the bullshit?" thing...

[+GoldLeader]

I actually meant nothing about ROMs or Pirates in what I was saying (I touched on the Harmony cart thing mainly as a way of saying don't get your hopes up,  which is what I wish Atari had said in the first place).  ...I was talking about the fact it is incompatible with many carts, Unlike a real 2600.  And nowhere did I say they have no right to make this or that they owe me something,  but truth in advertising is nice.  I guess I do think they owe Everyone that.

[CapitanClassic]

"No Cart Left Behind," is what the law calls puffery, and the marketing department calls legal lying. It's like how Quik in the 90s would say, "100% real chocolate flavor," while technically true (the best kind of truth) someone might think they actually had chocolate in there.

[+Al_Nafuur]

8 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

I wonder if @Al_Nafuur can determine how many PlusCart users launch a Prototype rom or Rom they are unlikely to own a copy of (say Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Chase Chuckwagon).

The ROM download stats for the public area of the PlusStore is publicly accessible:

https://pluscart.firmaplus.de/statistics.php?stat_id=1

 

Searching for "Texas" shows 22 downloads of "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" and its hacks.

 

There are no stats for the private "My ROMs" area, but as far as I can see from the server logs the most users have in their 15MB private space the same file names as those in the public area (only organized according to their own preferences). An exception is "Circus Convoy" which a few users have in their private area and which is not public available.

 

[+batari]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:33 PM, Aragorn7 said:

And I spent so much time on that reply, too. Thank you for clarifying. 

Well, I have to say that I believe it's possible for the 2600+ to support a menu-driven multicart.

 

However, changes to the firmware on the 2600+ are necessary. It doesn't need to interact with the cart in real-time, but it does need to be more interactive than it currently is.

 

Either way, I have other things I am working on that should allow the Harmony cart to work on the 2600 with more than just a single image at a time, which may even work without major changes to the 2600+ firmware.

[+batari]

One more thing - for those who haven't found them in the Harmony forum, I created a few bankswitch files for use in single-image mode. You can now play F8 or F6 games, and most F4 games on the 2600+ using your Harmony cart. You can also play games using Sara RAM with these (though you may have to manually change the bankswitch type.)

 

Copy the attached files to the "arm" folder within the Harmony software, overwriting the existing files. These files should also work on a real 2600, not just the 2600+. The arm folder is in the install directory in Windows or Linux, or within the app bundle on MacOS.

 

 

2600+F4F6F8.zip

[John Stamos Mullet]

8 hours ago, batari said:

One more thing - for those who haven't found them in the Harmony forum, I created a few bankswitch files for use in single-image mode. You can now play F8 or F6 games, and most F4 games on the 2600+ using your Harmony cart. You can also play games using Sara RAM with these (though you may have to manually change the bankswitch type.)

 

Copy the attached files to the "arm" folder within the Harmony software, overwriting the existing files. These files should also work on a real 2600, not just the 2600+. The arm folder is in the install directory in Windows or Linux, or within the app bundle on MacOS.

 

 

2600+F4F6F8.zip 1.42 kB · 4 downloads

Thanks!

 

that fixed Robot Tank for me.

[Aragorn7]

10 hours ago, batari said:

Well, I have to say that I believe it's possible for the 2600+ to support a menu-driven multicart.

 

However, changes to the firmware on the 2600+ are necessary. It doesn't need to interact with the cart in real-time, but it does need to be more interactive than it currently is.

 

Either way, I have other things I am working on that should allow the Harmony cart to work on the 2600 with more than just a single image at a time, which may even work without major changes to the 2600+ firmware.

That is fantastic news. I have both your Harmony and Concerto carts. If the menus of both could read be read by the 2600+, what a game changer that would be.

[NISMOPC]

Not sure if this is good news towards multi-carts or if it's already known, but the PAL Atari 32-in-1 cartridges work on the 2600+ as well.

 

I only tried cycling thru the games once, but most of them did play fine. A few would load to black screen or jumbled screen/sounds. Might test again to see which work and which fail in the list of 32.

Edited December 1, 2023 by NISMOPC

[Warboss Gegguz]

Lurker turned new poster here.

The whole situation is a bit of a bummer since I got both the 2600+ and a Harmony cart for my Dad as a B-Day gift and I'm now having to tell him I gotta flash the whole cart if he wants to play anything other than the 1 game I put on it at a time, but my experience with other communities along with just browsing here at least has me hopeful it won't be a massive issue for long, whether that's Atari doing something pro-consumer with the firmware, batari coming up with some workarounds, or people just hacking and modding the console. Most likely some combination of therein, lol.

 

I don't regret my purchase (since I didn't wanna get them some AtGames crap and the R77 looked REALLY ugly to me) but I am hoping for improvements. That or I'm gonna have to get some bootleg dipswitch cart off of ebay/etsy too.

Either way neither have gotten here yet so I can't fully attest to how tedious it may be.

[+GoldLeader]

[Bakasama]

1 hour ago, Warboss Gegguz said:

Lurker turned new poster here.

The whole situation is a bit of a bummer since I got both the 2600+ and a Harmony cart for my Dad as a B-Day gift and I'm now having to tell him I gotta flash the whole cart if he wants to play anything other than the 1 game I put on it at a time, but my experience with other communities along with just browsing here at least has me hopeful it won't be a massive issue for long, whether that's Atari doing something pro-consumer with the firmware, batari coming up with some workarounds, or people just hacking and modding the console. Most likely some combination of therein, lol.

 

I don't regret my purchase (since I didn't wanna get them some AtGames crap and the R77 looked REALLY ugly to me) but I am hoping for improvements. That or I'm gonna have to get some bootleg dipswitch cart off of ebay/etsy too.

Either way neither have gotten here yet so I can't fully attest to how tedious it may be.

The Harmony cart on the 2600+ should able to run demos and smaller hacked games like these:

 

[Warboss Gegguz]

6 minutes ago, Bakasama said:

The Harmony cart on the 2600+ should able to run demos and smaller hacked games like these:

While it would be sick for it to run stuff like Champ Games' homebrew ports, the only homebrew I ABSOLUTELY need it to be able to run is Pac-Man and DK VCS for obvious reasons.

I even told my parents the whole story of how the former was rushed and the latter had that whole ridiculous situation with Colleco making deliberately terrible ports of games to Atari and Intelevison and that fans made versions that are actually good, lol.

But even then Ms. Pac-Man and Jr. Pac-Man are confirmed compatible atm, so I can deal with it while Batari is working on whatever he's got going on beyond the custom arm fixes (assuming there's no firmware update that helps). ATM it's more just an issue of tedium and trying to explain it to people who don't know how stuff like this works.

And while I COULD be like "Well, I have the entire 2600 and 7800 libraries, Atari Vault, and Atari 50 on my gaming laptop along with all the Recharged games I could just bring down and hook into the TV," that kind of entirely defeats the purpose of this being easy and available for my whole family to use... but in its current state I ALSO still have to be there if they wanna play anything other than the 10 pack-in games or the single game flashed on the Harmony cart, so it's a catch 22.

 

I don't regret the purchases because I'm in enough communities that have hacked and modded far more complicated consoles to hell and back that I'm confident something as simple as a Linux-based emulation console for 2nd Gen games won't be hard to fix, but atm it's rough is all. I guess I can say I'm just glad they have me, because I feel bad for any non-enthusiasts that bought this without having a stockpile of functional carts.

[Bakasama]

There is an earlier Pac-Man hack based on Ms. Pac-Man. While it’s no Pac-Man 4k or 8k, its a lot closer to the arcade version than original Atari release.

 

https://atariage.com/hack_page.php?SystemID=2600&SoftwareHackID=5

[Brad_from_the_80s]

If find 7800 DK/DK Jr. a good alternative to whatever homebrews, as they are pretty decent ports.  Only downside is if the sound grates on your nerves or not.

[tradyblix]

6 hours ago, Brad_from_the_80s said:

If find 7800 DK/DK Jr. a good alternative to whatever homebrews, as they are pretty decent ports.  Only downside is if the sound grates on your nerves or not.

The sound on those games is atrocious. Esp Jr. The sound on some 2600 or 7800 games, like Beamrider, is tolerable. Endearing even. But those those 2 games. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by tradyblix