chad5200 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 14 minutes ago, tradyblix said: I know you meant this as a joke, but that would actually be AMAZING. Yes. This. Only half joking... I am sure Champ Games will come up with a solution that will work on both classic 2600 and 2600+. A physical switch (a DIP switch!)? A new PCB that can auto detect classic vs. 2600+ and act accordingly? Who knows... They are smart guys. They will adapt. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 6 minutes ago, splendidnut said: Apparently if you don't target the 2600+, you're treating the users as second class citizens. Do you really want to do that @Thomas Jentzsch? If you buy 2nd class hardware, you shouldn't expect 1st class support. 🙂 Also there are multiple consoles like this outside. Am I treating their owners as 2nd class citizens too? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoTJ Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 46 minutes ago, LS650 said: I have to reluctantly agree with tradyblix. I have a Heavy 6-er, a Sears Arcade ii, and a 2600 Jr all sitting in storage, while a Plus is on my coffee table connected to my HDMI screen. Why? Because the Plus puts out a (much) better video output. If folks want to develop games that are compatible with the OG 2600 but not the Plus, that's terrific and I wish them well in their efforts, but sadly I won't be partaking if it isn't compatible with the Plus. I wondered if I was the only one with a Sears Arcade II. I don't think mine works though. I have the whole setup though, controllers, etc. All this is making me want to send in one of my 7800s to get an HDMI port installed. Last time I checked though, this mod doesn't pass sound from the Pokey. Edited January 19 by TornadoTJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+splendidnut Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 9 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: If you buy 2nd class hardware, you shouldn't expect 1st class support. 🙂 It makes more sense if you approach it from the perspective of: They bought a new product. They expect support of that new product. I mean, I get it. But, I'd prefer if the 2600+ supporters would push Atari to make the system more compatible, instead of less. I'm here because I'm interested in programming the original system. I don't have a 2600+ as I don't really have a need for it. If things I write are compatible, great! If they aren't, that's okay too. At the end of the day, this is a hobby. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Targeting what essentially is a partially functional platform is a terrible idea, no matter what the system is. 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, tradyblix said: Strong Disagree. The ONLY REASON I am even playing or talking or interested in 2600 games, Stella, or any of that is the 2600+. Why ? Because I can't run my 2600 without a huge hassle. And it looks like CRAP on modern tvs. It doesn't even look as good as the 2600+ does when it runs on CRTs, when I had a CRT and space for one. You can see the effect it had here, this place was so snoozy and a club for the only the most hardcore, with people waiting a week+ for replies in some cases, and the 2600+ finally got things alive here again for the first time in ... YEARS. Also, I don't think it has to be an either or situation. There's many homebrews I have that run that prove you can have them run on both. Maybe just consider when you start developing a game you intend to sell to enthusiasts for the same price as a modern PS5 AAA game that you might want to consider those that bought the 2600+ AS WELL. Eventually all the 2600s will be dead or in museums so 2600+ needs support so people will continue to want to make carts. Roms already probably had an enervating effect on whether it's worth anyones time, so cart solutions are important. I mean there are so many games i'd like to buy but can't because 1.) not available or 2.) super expensive. Rikki and Vikki cart is 500 bucks on eBay right now ! You have at least 50k new 2600+ owners to sell carts to IF YOUR CARTS WORK WITHOUT USING ARM CHIPS. But on the other hand, I can get those roms for nothing, and nobody gets paid. Seems like a good idea to support 2600+, right ? instead of being intransigent ??? It's okay. we don't need to agree. We're talking about a handful of obscure games from mainly Champ games anyway. Everything else mostly works. But whenever I run into the old "go run it on the original it works" that's not a solution for me. I also don't have a 7800. And judging from youtube and the enthusiasm shown, many others are in same boat. Satisfy the people who WOULD shell out 60 bucks for a cart, not fight them, that's what I say. Cart before horse. In what world does it make sense to tailor new home-brew to the inaccuracies of an emulation device that has been on the market for 3 months, when its purported goal is to emulate a machine that has >45 years of software? Edited January 19 by Lost Monkey 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHairy Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 hours ago, JetSetIlly said: Aren't PGO files produced by GCC platform independent? By which I mean, the automation for PGO generation could be done as part of the Stella release process. They probably are, although I never tried (for the R77 I just run Stella in profiling mode through qemu-user). But I am pretty sure they depend on the compiler version, and then there's also LLVM (and I know form personal suffering that those do depend on the version 😏). I wouldn't want to enter the rabbit hole of generating and releasing profiles together with the binaries, but we already fully integrated PGO into Stella's make file --- there's a PGO target that compiles with profiling enabled, generates a profile for a selected set of ROMs and then rebuilds with PGO. I am sure it can be automated for the RA build the same way, too, it just has to be done. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 Well in the end, and it might take time, might even take a revision, but the + must be compatible with all carts. Let's see what's already happened with 7800 homebrew compatibility in a couple of months, I think there is only 2 carts left. It has to be the same with 2600 games to achieve 1st class status. I think if I'm still around and have any influence any game made in the future for 2600 and 7800 must also work on 2600+. I may well fail in this lofty ambition. I kind of draw the line with tapes though. 9 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Karnov Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 4 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said: Well in the end, and it might take time, might even take a revision, but the + must be compatible with all carts. Let's see what's already happened with 7800 homebrew compatibility in a couple of months, I think there is only 2 carts left. It has to be the same with 2600 games to achieve 1st class status. I think if I'm still around and have any influence any game made in the future for 2600 and 7800 must also work on 2600+. I may well fail in this lofty ambition. I kind of draw the line with tapes though. @Ben from Plaion, you and the teams effort to expand the compatibility and functionality of the plus are greatly appreciated. I think it was a fantastic system at launch and has continued to improve since then. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSetIlly Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 minutes ago, DirtyHairy said: I wouldn't want to enter the rabbit hole of generating and releasing profiles together with the binaries, but we already fully integrated PGO into Stella's make file --- there's a PGO target that compiles with profiling enabled, generates a profile for a selected set of ROMs and then rebuilds with PGO. Just looking at which ROMs you use to generate the profile. Interesting combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHairy Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Just now, JetSetIlly said: Just looking at which ROMs you use to generate the profile. Interesting combination. 😆 I think the makefile only uses 128.bin and catharsis theory --- the 128 char demo is very taxing on Stella's ARM core, and the last screen of catharsis theory is surprisingly heavy, too, as it lights up a few expensive code paths in the TIA core. I experimented with those for the R77, and the resulting profile worked well, so we kept them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSetIlly Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, DirtyHairy said: 😆 I think the makefile only uses 128.bin and catharsis theory --- the 128 char demo is very taxing on Stella's ARM core, and the last screen of catharsis theory is surprisingly heavy, too, as it lights up a few expensive code paths in the TIA core. I experimented with those for the R77, and the resulting profile worked well, so we kept them. Do you have the source for 128.bin? I'd like to profile the execution more closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHairy Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 5 minutes ago, JetSetIlly said: Do you have the source for 128.bin? I'd like to profile the execution more closely. I just checked, I can't find it on my laptop, but there's a thread on the forums where @SpiceWare uploaded the source: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 57 minutes ago, chad5200 said: Only half joking... I am sure Champ Games will come up with a solution that will work on both classic 2600 and 2600+. A physical switch (a DIP switch!)? A new PCB that can auto detect classic vs. 2600+ and act accordingly? Who knows... They are smart guys. They will adapt. This thing about carts with new fangled chips in it is a really interesting topic. Starts with Pitfall II. It's kind of understandable to have exceptions for the 2600+ and say well Pitfall II has a special chip in it, same with arm based 2600 carts. But then it's not acceptable in the end is it. Everything should be done to make these games work. Having said that what do I do when champ games solders a Nvidia 4090 chip to a cart and an original 2600 can suddenly play Crysis at 4k. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 Anyway, bit of good news. Load of problem carts supplied by a kind AA member helped resolve compatibility. Robot Tank running smooth tonight VID_20240119_190352.mp4.52e50d00f10bd9ca05346a5206f29245.mp4 15 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, TornadoTJ said: All this is making me want to send in one of my 7800s to get an HDMI port installed. Last time I checked though, this mod doesn't pass sound from the Pokey. If it's the same guy who did the one I had to gut and replace, I would highly recommend against it. You'd be far better off getting an S-Video mod installed, then adding a proper external scaler (such as a RetroTink). You'd get far better results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 40 minutes ago, Dr Karnov said: @Ben from Plaion, you and the teams effort to expand the compatibility and functionality of the plus are greatly appreciated. I think it was a fantastic system at launch and has continued to improve since then. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 9 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said: Having said that what do I do when champ games solders a Nvidia 4090 chip to a cart and an original 2600 can suddenly play Crysis at 4k. Not likely. John will be the first person to admit he's terrible at soldering. I appreciate the efforts being made to make the 2600+ on par compatibility-wise with original 2600s. I hope they're successful. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 23 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said: Anyway, bit of good news. Load of problem carts supplied by a kind AA member helped resolve compatibility. Robot Tank running smooth tonight VID_20240119_190352.mp4.52e50d00f10bd9ca05346a5206f29245.mp4 What was the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 13 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said: Not likely. John will be the first person to admit he's terrible at soldering. I appreciate the efforts being made to make the 2600+ on par compatibility-wise with original 2600s. I hope they're successful. Ha! I need to read up more what these homebrew carts like champ games have got in them. Like when we cracked Circus Convoy seemed to be the case to me that it was just a sophisticated bank switch scheme with a huge cart size (128k IIRC), but are there homebrew carts that use special chips somewhat akin to superfx on SNES? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 4 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: What was the problem? Seems like something like the Realsports Boxing problem, because it only required a dumper chip update. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHairy Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said: Ha! I need to read up more what these homebrew carts like champ games have got in them. Like when we cracked Circus Convoy seemed to be the case to me that it was just a sophisticated bank switch scheme with a huge cart size (128k IIRC), but are there homebrew carts that use special chips somewhat akin to superfx on SNES? At this point the most widely used "extra chips" are DPC (used in Pitfall II and a few homebrews), DPC+ (an extension of DPC that runs on Melody and Harmony boards and exposes the ARM for running code) and CDF / CDFJ (which run on Melody and Harmony and is more geared to ARM-enhanced games). Apart from that, the only other ones that I know of are Chetiry (which runs on Harmony and uses a special API for music) and a few programs by @ZackAttack that run on the Uno cart and that use the ARM to generate 6502 code on the fly. Edited January 19 by DirtyHairy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DirtyHairy said: At this point the most widely used "extra chips" are DPC (used in Pitfall II and a few homebrews), DPC+ (an extension of DPC that runs on Melody and Harmony boards and exposes the ARM for running code) and CDF / CDFJ (which run on Melody and Harmony and is more geared to ARM-enhanced games). Apart from that, the only other ones that I know of are Chetiry (which runs on Harmony and uses a special API for music) and a few programs by @ZackAttack that run on the Uno cart and that use the ARM to generate 6502 code on the fly. Star Castle Arcade uses a stripped down Melody (forgot the name) chip for saving the high scores. Edited January 19 by Thomas Jentzsch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 8 minutes ago, DirtyHairy said: At this point the most widely used "extra chips" are DPC (used in Pitfall II and a few homebrews), DPC+ (an extension of DPC that runs on Melody and Harmony boards and exposes the ARM for running code) and CDF / CDFJ (which run on Melody and Harmony and is more geared to ARM-enhanced games). Apart from that, the only other ones that I know of are Chetiry (which runs on Harmony and uses a special API for music) and a few programs by @ZackAttack that run on the Uno cart and that use the ARM to generate 6502 code on the fly. Googled it for some bedtime reading, no surprise it suggested a decade old AA thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 8 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Star Castle Arcade uses a stripped down Melody (forgot the name) chip for saving the high scores. So none of them provide any extra CPU/GPU grunt or anything it's just organisationle routing. Sorry for the noob questioning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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