Atari 2600+ Beta Update 1.1

[+wavemotion]

14 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Interesting. We found that e.g. the starfield of Cosmic Ark is very demanding. The two homebrews you mention require less CPU power.

My baseline Stella was a bit older than modern versions so perhaps it's not apples-to-apples - specifically, my port doesn't include the highly accurate cycle accounting of later baselines. But it's worth trying those two games. Even with all the optimizations, Elevators Amiss will only sustain unthrottled 70fps while I can run Cosmic Ark at 130fps and even an ARM-Assisted game like Space Rocks at ~80fps.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

4 minutes ago, wavemotion said:

My baseline Stella was a bit older than modern versions so perhaps it's not apples-to-apples. But it's worth trying those two games. Even with all the optimizations, Elevators Amiss will only sustain unthrottled 70fps while I can run Cosmic Ark at 130fps and even an ARM-Assisted game like Space Rocks at ~80fps.

I suppose the very different platform shows here.

 

On my PC, Elevator AMiss (PAL 60) runs at ~1230 FPS, Cosmic Ark (NTSC) at ~1300 FPS and Space Rocks at ~1050 FPS.

[John Stamos Mullet]

4 hours ago, JetSetIlly said:

The intent of the 2600 was for it to be expandable by the cartridge slot. That's what these developers are doing.

Expandable by the cartridge slot using technology that existed from 1977-1985ish, Not ARM chip technology from 45 years later where a single chip is 25x more powerful than the entire console.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love what homebrewers have been able to do. Most of these games are absolutely fantastic. But almost none of them were feasible in the 2600's actual lifecycle.

 

It's like strapping an an early model Android Cellphone to an 2600 cart board and saying "Look at what I did!".

Edited January 20 by John Stamos Mullet

[JetSetIlly]

Just now, John Stamos Mullet said:

Expandable by the cartridge slot using technology that existed from 1977-1985ish, Not ARM chip technology from 45 years later where a single chip is 25x more powerful than the entire console.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love what homebrewers have been able to do. Most of these games are absolutely fantastic. But none of them were feasible in the 2600's actual lifecycle.

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree that when the ARM first appeared to be significant. I consider the 2600 to be still be in it's actual lifecycle, partly thanks to the work of Batari and Al_Nafuur and many others.

 

The fact that ARM technology works in conjunction a 45 year old console is testament to both ARM and Atari. I think that is something to be celebrated and it would be a great shame if game developers felt the need to limit themselves to compatibility with the 2600+

 

 

 

[+remowilliams]

2 hours ago, mastic_man said:

I managed to get all Champ 32k games working using this ancient tech with F4 Bank switching, they work surprisingly well TBH. John had to disable quatari & sega game pad to be able to play them properly.

Now that I've loaded some Champ games the easy way : D - the problem is not getting them to the 2600+ but it having the performance to run them properly, which it currently does not.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

23 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

Now that I've loaded some Champ games the easy way : D - the problem is not getting them to the 2600+ but it having the performance to run them properly, which it currently does not.

From the R77 we know that this is possible. But it requires some extra effort.

[astroguy]

39 minutes ago, JetSetIlly said:

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree that when the ARM first appeared to be significant. I consider the 2600 to be still be in it's actual lifecycle, partly thanks to the work of Batari and Al_Nafuur and many others.

 

The fact that ARM technology works in conjunction a 45 year old console is testament to both ARM and Atari. I think that is something to be celebrated and it would be a great shame if game developers felt the need to limit themselves to compatibility with the 2600+

 

 

 

It's quite beautiful that a CPU born from an Acorn, whose developers likely learned on a 6502, can now backpack on a cartridge to allow the 2600 to perform new fun tricks. 

[tradyblix]

This thread has gotten completely off topic at this point. can we maybe stick to talking about when the next update is going to come out or something? that would be preferable to people talking about how great something that can't even run on the 2600 plus is.

 

One thing I would be interested in hearing if somebody would speak on it is if we are going to get a 1080p upgrade like had been talked about for the previous 1.1 that was backed out at the last second. I am hopeful that the 1.1 beta 2 or whatever you guys are going to call it would maybe have that and would like to know if you guys are thinking about putting it back in.

Edited January 20 by tradyblix

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It was you who started the discussion with your request of 2600+ compatible homebrews. 

 

Which does not mean, that you decide when this discussion ends. 

 

BTW: The way you are talking about some of the best homebrews for the 2600 isn't going to win you many friends here. The 2600+ is by far not the centerpoint of the 2600 world. It is just another emulation based console (one of the better ones), which happens to be branded by the company which currently owns the Atari trademark. 

Edited January 20 by Thomas Jentzsch

[chad5200]

18 hours ago, chad5200 said:

Correct. Smurf does this:

 

IMG_2829.mov 4.73 MB · 5 downloads  

 

Works on classic 2600. 

Does anyone else have a Smurf Rescue In Gargamel's Castle that also behaves the way in that video above?  If so, can you update to AtariDumper1.1.0.9.exe and let me know if it starts working for you?

 

[tradyblix]

38 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

It was you who started the discussion with your request of 2600+ compatible homebrews. 

 

Which does not mean, that you decide when this discussion ends. 

 

BTW: The way you are talking about some of the best homebrews for the 2600 isn't going to win you many friends here. The 2600+ is by far not the centerpoint of the 2600 world. It is just another emulation based console (one of the better ones), which happens to be branded by the company which currently owns the Atari trademark. 

Please add me to your ignore list. I'm going to add you to mine. Have a great one. 

 

I'm interested in the 2600+. I want to talk with other people in the 2600+ forum who are positive and supportive of the 2600+. I don't really have any interest in getting into silly turf war arguments with people that don't support it, or get into pecking order arguments, snarky, dismissive comments, or any of that stuff that I watched you doing over the last few months. So it's best we ignore each other. 

Edited January 20 by tradyblix

[tradyblix]

34 minutes ago, chad5200 said:

Does anyone else have a Smurf Rescue In Gargamel's Castle that also behaves the way in that video above?  If so, can you update to AtariDumper1.1.0.9.exe and let me know if it starts working for you?

 

Sadly no. Or I would be more than willing to check it out for you and report back. 

[John Stamos Mullet]

42 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

It was you who started the discussion with your request of 2600+ compatible homebrews. 

 

Which does not mean, that you decide when this discussion ends. 

 

BTW: The way you are talking about some of the best homebrews for the 2600 isn't going to win you many friends here. The 2600+ is by far not the centerpoint of the 2600 world. It is just another emulation based console (one of the better ones), which happens to be branded by the company which currently owns the Atari trademark. 

You and I agree on a lot of things, Tom, but this elitist snobby attitude towards the 2600+ in the 2600+ dedicated forum  comes off as pure trolling. 
 

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

12 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

You and I agree on a lot of things, Tom, but this elitist snobby attitude towards the 2600+ in the 2600+ dedicated forum  comes off as pure trolling. 

I am not against the 2600+ at all. Actually, with the ongoing effort of Ben and his team, it could become the best emulation based 2600 console ever. But I do not like if people start shitting on great homebrews which are not running on it. Not because the homebrews are any wrong, but because the 2600+ (at least as of now) cannot run then. And then people start demanding that us homebrewers should tailor our games to the shortcomings of 2600+. IMO this is completely wrong on many, many levels. And you won't find many homebrewers or homebrew fans who like this attitude. Just have a look at last night's ZPH stream if you do not believe me.

 

The original 2600 exists for almost 47 years now (and counting). The 2600+ is here for a few months now. And like for any previous emulation based console, the 2600 will still be there, when the 2600+ has long lost its support.

Edited January 20 by Thomas Jentzsch

[MrChickenz]

19 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Coleco Rev 3 carts are indeed working! 
 

I don’t have the M-Network games to test and 16k games don’t work with Harmony on the 2600+ yet. 
 

very nice!

M-Network the ones I have all work

 

1 ASTROBLAST (paddles)

2 SPACE ATTACK

3 TRON DEADLY DISCS

4 ADVENTURES OF TRON

5 AIR RAIDERS

6 ARMOR AMBUSH (two player only)

7 FROGS AND FLIES

8 LOCK AND CHASE

9 DARK CAVERN

10 SUPER CHALLANGE FOOTBALL (two player only)

11 SUPER CHALLANGE BASEBALL (two player only)

 

Edited January 20 by MrChickenz

[tradyblix]

6 minutes ago, MrChickenz said:

M-Network the ones I have all work

 

1 ASTROBLAST (paddles)

2 SPACE ATTACK

3 TRON DEADLY DISCS

4 ADVENTURES OF TRON

5 AIR RAIDERS

6 ARMOR AMBUSH 

7 FROGS AND FLIES

8 LOCK AND CHASE

9 DARK CAVERN

10 SUPER CHALLANGE FOOTBALL

11 SUPER CHALLANGE BASEBALL

 

Have you actually tried playing super challenge football and super challenge baseball ? Because for me, they come up, they have movement on the screen, but pressing buttons I can't get anything to happen beyond that. It's the same at it was for me back in 1.0. I tried seeing if Game Reset was required, but it doesn't make it playable for me. 

Edited January 20 by tradyblix

[MrChickenz]

Just now, tradyblix said:

Have you actually tried playing super challenge football and super challenge baseball ? Because for me, they come up, they have movement on the screen, but pressing buttons I can't get anything to happen beyond that. It's the same at it was for me back in 1.0. 

Yes, they are two player games only! No AI in these two. Try a controller in each port. And see if they work for you.

[tradyblix]

Just now, MrChickenz said:

Yes, they are two player games only! No AI in these two. Try a controller in each port. And see if they work for you.

Ah, thank you very much. That explains it. And Astroblast is paddles only. Okay. 

Edited January 20 by tradyblix

[MrChickenz]

3 minutes ago, tradyblix said:

Ah, thank you very much. That explains it. And Astroblast is paddles only. Okay. 

I ment to add that to my list. I just edited it now.

M-Network were some of my favorites! I played a lot of Baseball that’s awesome! ArmorAbush oh another 2 player really good!

Tron and the others a lot of fun!

[John Stamos Mullet]

59 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I am not against the 2600+ at all. Actually, with the ongoing effort of Ben and his team, it could become the best emulation based 2600 console ever. But I do not like if people start shitting on great homebrews which are not running on it. Not because the homebrews are any wrong, but because the 2600+ (at least as of now) cannot run then. And then people start demanding that us homebrewers should tailor our games to the shortcomings of 2600+. IMO this is completely wrong on many, many levels. And you won't find many homebrewers or homebrew fans who like this attitude. Just have a look at last night's ZPH stream if you do not believe me.

 

The original 2600 exists for almost 47 years now (and counting). The 2600+ is here for a few months now. And like for any previous emulation based console, the 2600 will still be there, when the 2600+ has long lost its support.

I wouldn't shit on any of these homebrews, because as I said, they are legitimately great.

 

But some of them use technology that never could have been pulled off in the 2600's heyday. They use new tech, and some creative hacks and workarounds to perform feats the 2600's designers never planned for. It's laudable and commendable, from a tech perspective; but some of it's also a bit of cheating, if we're being honest. The fact that they don't run on an emulation based system, because the emulation is written to mimic the original 2600's capacities, and not hardware based hacks that didn't exist when teh 2600 hardware was designed, doesn't make the emulation lesser. 

 

Much like the long promised 7800 XM, some of the constantly added feature creep made it go way beyond what ever really was intended for the platform. Like I said, it's a bit like strapping a rocket engine to a Radio Flyer wagon, and pretending that was Radio Flyer's original intent.

 

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

1 hour ago, MrChickenz said:

I ment to add that to my list. I just edited it now.

Astroblast supports paddles and the joystick. It auto detects if paddles are attached.

[JetSetIlly]

1 minute ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I wouldn't shit on any of these homebrews, because as I said, they are legitimately great.

 

But some of them use technology that never could have been pulled off in the 2600's heyday. They use new tech, and some creative hacks and workarounds to perform feats the 2600's designers never planned for. It's laudable and commendable, from a tech perspective; but some of it's also a bit of cheating, if we're being honest.

This is where the difference of opinions lie, which is unfortunate. You say that the the ARM is some sort of cheat. I strongly disagree. There are no tricks and there are no hacks. The 2600 works with the data from an ARM cartridge in the same way as data retrieved from a non-ARM cartridge. The 6507, the TIA and the RIOT all work as advertised regardless of what cartridge is inserted.

 

6 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

The fact that they don't run on an emulation based system, because the emulation is written to mimic the original 2600's capacities, and not hardware based hacks that didn't exist when teh 2600 hardware was designed, doesn't make the emulation lesser.

The 2600+ doesn't mimic the original 2600's capacities though. This is the problem revealed by these cartridges. The 2600+ doesn't communicate with the cartridge in the way that 2600 does. For a console that is designed to be expandable by the cartridge slot, that's an important component for a modern replica to get right.

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

29 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I wouldn't shit on any of these homebrews, because as I said, they are legitimately great.

This wasn't addressed at you.

29 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

But some of them use technology that never could have been pulled off in the 2600's heyday. They use new tech, and some creative hacks and workarounds to perform feats the 2600's designers never planned for. It's laudable and commendable, from a tech perspective; but some of it's also a bit of cheating, if we're being honest.

This has been discussed at AtariAge multiple times. Opinions vary. That I do not develop such games should clarify my point of view. But I would never dismiss the results. I have utter respect for their developers.

29 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

The fact that they don't run on an emulation based system, because the emulation is written to mimic the original 2600's capacities, and not hardware based hacks that didn't exist when teh 2600 hardware was designed, doesn't make the emulation lesser. 

No, Stella is fully capable to emulate these games. The R77 community edition, which uses Stella too, plays them at full speed. Actually the Stella team (which includes me) did invest quite some time to make them work there. Since the 2600+ team has access to this code, it should be possible to achieve full speed for the 2600+ too. The hardware is similar enough. That they (currently?) do not work at all in the 2600+, is due to the dumper only approach.

 

And with the current setup there are more limitations:

• lack of controller support (keyboard/touchpad, trackball, light gun, problems with the paddles)
• problems with PAL-60 games (no use of existing properties, no option to fix the vide mode used)
• no phosphor
• many modern bankswitching types not supported
• ...

 

And then someones demands, that we should tailor our homebrews to such major limitations. Silly!

Edited January 20 by Thomas Jentzsch

[MrChickenz]

15 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Astroblast supports paddles and the joystick. It auto detects if paddles are attached.

I didn’t remember that, so on mine 2600+ doesn’t recognize joystick just paddle. (NTSC) latest dumper. 
Thanks, Thomas

Edited January 20 by MrChickenz

[Thomas Jentzsch]

1 minute ago, MrChickenz said:

I didn’t remember that, so on mine 2600+ doesn’t recognize joystick just paddle. (NTSC) latest dumper. 

Hard to tell why this is happening. I have little insight into the RetroArch/Libretro/Stella chain.

 

Maybe paddles signals are provided even if no paddles are attached. Which would be a bug of the hardware. But that's speculation. Could be a software bug too.