choice of software emulation over hardware emulation

[BillDMatt]

I was playing some SNES and some Sega Genesis games last night on my Retro Bit Trio  HD plus.   Which is  hardware emulation and very inexpensive, .  I bought mine for $90 but even when it first came out I think it was only around $130ish.  That got me wondering why Atari didn't go that route?  I think it would have less issues with game compatibility.   

 

just a thought    

Edited March 15 by BillDMatt

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, BillDMatt said:

I was playing some SNES and some Sega Genesis games last night on my Retro Bit Trio  HD plus.   Which is  hardware emulation and very inexpensive, .  I bought mine for $90 but even when it first came out I think it was only around $130ish.  That got me wondering why Atari didn't go that route?  I think it would have less issues with game compatibility.   

 

just a thought    

Unlike software emulation, hardware emulation can't be updated after the fact. You're stuck with what you got. So if there are issues or incompatibilities, oh well....

 

Also  - looking at a handful of reviews for this product you mention, and they seem to be universally "meh" and that the NES emulation basically sucks.

[BillDMatt]

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Unlike software emulation, hardware emulation can't be updated after the fact. You're stuck with what you got. So if there are issues or incompatibilities, oh well....

 

Also  - looking at a handful of reviews for this product you mention, and they seem to be universally "meh" and that the NES emulation basically sucks.

I wondering if some of the reviews were of their earlier efforts, I think there have been about 3 generations of RetroTrio   but  the one got has mostly 4 and 5 star reviews, it's been very solid, no complaints  though it can be finicky when connecting Sonic and Knuckles to Sonic 2 or 3 but it's been behaving lately. 

 

as to the other part,   Makes sense  I guess on this price point.   But I do know the Analogue Mega SG  offers firmware updates   but that is in another class and price range the Retro-Bit offerings.

 

Thanks 

Edited March 15 by BillDMatt

[zzip]

FPGA is too expensive, but the 2600 was a relatively simple device and even cloned in hardware by Coleco BITD.

 

I suspect it might be a skills shift:  There's more people with software skills around today than hardware skills, and that's different than how it was in the 70s/80s.   So designing the 2600+ by integrating software emulators was likely cheaper and quicker to do than reproducing the original hardware while adding in HDMI output and other modern niceties.  

 

As far a firmware upgrades go..  that was not a thing in consumer devices in the 70s/80s.   So if it was a true hardware clone, it should never need a firmware update.

[JPF997]

3 minutes ago, zzip said:

FPGA is too expensive, but the 2600 was a relatively simple device and even cloned in hardware by Coleco BITD.

 

I suspect it might be a skills shift:  There's more people with software skills around today than hardware skills, and that's different than how it was in the 70s/80s.   So designing the 2600+ by integrating software emulators was likely cheaper and quicker to do than reproducing the original hardware while adding in HDMI output and other modern niceties.  

 

As far a firmware upgrades go..  that was not a thing in consumer devices in the 70s/80s.   So if it was a true hardware clone, it should never need a firmware update.

People need to stop worshipping FPGA, standard emulation is more than enough to perfectly emulate most gaming systems ever made, especially something as weak as a 2600.

Edited March 15 by JPF997

[Ben from Plaion]

5 hours ago, BillDMatt said:

I was playing some SNES and some Sega Genesis games last night on my Retro Bit Trio  HD plus.   Which is  hardware emulation and very inexpensive, .  I bought mine for $90 but even when it first came out I think it was only around $130ish.  That got me wondering why Atari didn't go that route?  I think it would have less issues with game compatibility.   

 

just a thought    

Excellent topic.

 

Because designing an Asic chip like you suggesting may well be acheivable with 2600 relatively easily, I know its been done before, but its as far as I know not been done with 7800 compatibility added. To even start this I'd estimate a 6 figure investment. Perfectly reasonable when selling clones of those other high profile machines because the returns are so tasty. But for a 2600+ version I'm not sure.

And even then those clone chips you mention have limitations (I've seen they force bilinear smoothing and the sound quality seemingly is lacking) so even if you undertake the task you'd run into issues people would call you out on even if cartridge compatibility was much better out of the gate, and thus you come to the conclusion is it worth it.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

18 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

People need to stop worshipping FPGA, standard emulation is more than enough to perfectly emulate most gaming systems ever made, especially something as weak as a 2600.

Agreed. The current weak point are the dumpers. They can come close, still there will always be problematic carts. But even that can be circumvented by emulation (StellaRT). 

Edited March 15 by Thomas Jentzsch

[BillDMatt]

2 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Excellent topic.

 

Because designing an Asic chip like you suggesting may well be acheivable with 2600 relatively easily, I know its been done before, but its as far as I know not been done with 7800 compatibility added. To even start this I'd estimate a 6 figure investment. Perfectly reasonable when selling clones of those other high profile machines because the returns are so tasty. But for a 2600+ version I'm not sure.

And even then those clone chips you mention have limitations (I've seen they force bilinear smoothing and the sound quality seemingly is lacking) so even if you undertake the task you'd run into issues people would call you out on even if cartridge compatibility was much better out of the gate, and thus you come to the conclusion is it worth it.

thanks for the response  makes a lot of sense .    The sound on the Retro-Bits aren't too bad  but I got  the $25  "Old Skool" NES Clone for my CRT for the light gun and man o man that sound is the worst,  LOL     So I guess all in all this is the best route.    Thanks again everyone. 

[Ben from Plaion]

11 minutes ago, BillDMatt said:

thanks for the response  makes a lot of sense .    The sound on the Retro-Bits aren't too bad  but I got  the $25  "Old Skool" NES Clone for my CRT for the light gun and man o man that sound is the worst,  LOL     So I guess all in all this is the best route.    Thanks again everyone. 

Oh I'd make one tomorrow if everything fell into place, the path forward though is full of pitfalls!

Edited March 15 by Ben from Plaion

[+karri]

For most of the games emulation is good enough. I really hope that the 2600+ would become a "good enough" machine for all the 2600 and 7800 titles. I really love the fact that it runs real carts and that it can cope with NTSC and PAL. This is something my original 7800 PAL machine can not do.

[astroguy]

You can place me in the FPGA camp.  I really like problem solving at the hardware level.  I've managed to wire-up a card-connector to turn a development board into an expensive ROM dumper.  This was mostly POC on my side as I have a strong interest in attempting to wire the cartridges directly into a mature 7800 FPGA implementation.  Will this ever be in a state to share?  I have no clue.  I'm just having fun.

[hizzy]

I've always enjoyed using Stella. It's great. Never have played a paddle game on it, so I don't know what that is like.

[Spanner]

Arm SoC is cheaper to use and Arm is like a ASIC, it came from it, a ASIC is a SoC and System on a Chip, like the C64 DTV but in 2004 ARM SoC were to expensive to use then(a ARM SoC was used in the Amstrad E3 Emailer) and then in 2012 everything change with the invention of the Raspberry PI 1, then Chinese companies started to copy it, then the NES Mini was born in 2016 and then the mini console was born.

Edited March 17 by Spanner

[John Stamos Mullet]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:07 PM, JPF997 said:

People need to stop worshipping FPGA, standard emulation is more than enough to perfectly emulate most gaming systems ever made, especially something as weak as a 2600.

People only worship FPGA now because it’s the “new and shiny” thing way, and FPGA proponents spend all their time talking it up like it’s perfect and poo-pooing emulation because all internet conversations need to be chip measuring contests.

[JPF997]

2 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

People only worship FPGA now because it’s the “new and shiny” thing way, and FPGA proponents spend all their time talking it up like it’s perfect and poo-pooing emulation because all internet conversations need to be chip measuring contests.

This reminds me of  when Pat the NES Punk mocked the 2600+ and said it was a rip off because it was using standard emulation instead of FPGA, people like this  really don't have any original thoughts in they're heads, all they do is parrot the latest talking points made by the retro gaming "experts" in order to sound smart .

[Razzie.P]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:32 PM, Ben from Plaion said:

 the path forward though is full of pitfalls!

That's a pretty weak excuse, though.  Just run past them when they're closed, be careful of your timing jumping on/off the vine, and make sure the crocodile's mouths are closed when you jump on them and you'll be fine.  

 

 

[zzip]

22 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

That's a pretty weak excuse, though.  Just run past them when they're closed, be careful of your timing jumping on/off the vine, and make sure the crocodile's mouths are closed when you jump on them and you'll be fine.  

But that isn't going to help with the expense of the development costs!   For that, you need to collect the gold bars.

[LynnInDenver]

The FPGA is only considered the "holy grail" because it's "hardware", and yet can be updated like software. It's basically high end firmware, but it does come with the caveat that it's really aimed at rapid prototyping and specific industrial use cases (with a cost to match), and isn't meant to be used in consumer game systems. It's also limited by the same thing that limits accurate software emulation; you need to have a deep understanding of the system you're emulating/recreating in order to make an accurate implementation on an FPGA.

[JOD-I]

I have seen bad FPGA and I have seen good emulation.  I definitely prefer good emulation over bad FPGA any day.  The 2600+ isnt perfect but it is GOOD emulation. 

[Defender_2600]

On 3/17/2024 at 3:53 PM, Spanner said:

then the NES Mini was born in 2016 and then the mini console was born

 

We should also remember that the first Atari Flashback (7800 mini) was released in 2004, so many years before the NES mini.

 

 

[ForceInfinity]

On 3/15/2024 at 11:32 AM, Ben from Plaion said:

Oh I'd make one tomorrow if everything fell into place, the path forward though is full of pitfalls!

And I heard the Pitfall "swinging across on the vine" sound in my head as I read this....

 

I'm such a nerd 😛 

[DEANJIMMY]

As I wrote anywhere else before, I really like the fact that software emulation can patch games, too.

 

A bug in the Rom on the cart? 

CX78 two button support?

All patchable😎

 

Instead of the E.T. landfill they could have released a patch for the console 😉

I know, I know... in January 1983 such an update would have been almost impossible to organize😅

[MarcinJ]

On 3/15/2024 at 7:19 PM, Ben from Plaion said:

Excellent topic.

 

Because designing an Asic chip like you suggesting may well be acheivable with 2600 relatively easily, I know its been done before, but its as far as I know not been done with 7800 compatibility added. To even start this I'd estimate a 6 figure investment. Perfectly reasonable when selling clones of those other high profile machines because the returns are so tasty. But for a 2600+ version I'm not sure.

And even then those clone chips you mention have limitations (I've seen they force bilinear smoothing and the sound quality seemingly is lacking) so even if you undertake the task you'd run into issues people would call you out on even if cartridge compatibility was much better out of the gate, and thus you come to the conclusion is it worth it.

I have some experience working with FPGA cards (for very different purpose). They are more challenging to program, updates are rather difficult and can be done at much slower pace. The equipment done right would be also more expensive.  I really see no advantage here.

[MrChickenz]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:07 PM, JPF997 said:

especially something as weak as a 2600

Weeeeeaak!  2600 is not weak! 2600 strong like bull!

[Maztr_0n]

On 3/15/2024 at 1:07 PM, JPF997 said:

People need to stop worshipping FPGA, standard emulation is more than enough to perfectly emulate most gaming systems ever made, especially something as weak as a 2600.

I'll say FPGA and hardware can be worth it, when its done right of course.

But then again especially for the former, are you really going to buy a $700 Atari 2600? Do you think the average 80's kid whom would buy a 2600+ and probably be able to play all if not most of their old shoebox collection games, its why the cheap flashbacks (not including the first two) were big even into the 8th gen of consoles, you get them at the dollar store and you have a decent time.

The average 80's kid is probably not going to invest in a $700 FPGA machine or buy a high quality CRT with stereo RCA video ports, old 2600, recap kit, soldering iron, desoldering tool, Isophophyl Alcohol and Cue Tips, cartridge collection of the "best games" or a flash cart and SD card, a composite mod kit, a drill to make the holes on the side for the ports, a composite cable, a BRAND NEW third-party power adapter or a ticking time bomb ETC ETC just to mostly play 2600 Pac-Man.

And the average younger retro-gaming enthusiast is probably more likely to just get a famiclone/geniclone off aliexpress, a used game boy or DS or if they really wanna play atari, just play all the games online or via emulators and romsites.

i think it's 100% worth eventually wanting a FPGA or Hardware emulation Atari console and i do think criticism is valid because Atari is just a company, its not a god among men or whatever. If you think it isn't worth it to you but you'd want to eventually see Atari make something more appealing and accurate in the future i think you are within reason to want all of that and to express your feelings and desires.

 

But that being said, i think atari could've just made a non updateable, poor hardware copy 2600 with an even slower cartridge port and controllers that feel like a bootleg of the cheapest mcdonalds toys ever and sell it for $70 at dollar general. But even with the flaws i see a lot of hope and potential in the + platform even if it isn't perfect or anything.

I just hope when public updates come out for all major OSes and a substantial library of titles is out, i hope to see these systems and games sold in stores, especially those where video games are not usually sold but could do well in like Grocery and Dollar stores. It's always fun as a kid seeing a game, let alone an entire console in those stores. Plus i imagine the average, casual classic atari fan will likely easily pick them up on a whim at said stores and have a great time.

For those two markets and the retro-gaming market i think the consoles are accurate enough or at least have the potential to be for all three markets and while i do think it is worth hoping and asking for even better systems. Even if those come out they will likely be a seperate category and mainly be for that latter market, those who aren't kids whom are getting their first taste of classic gaming, getting cartridges with pocket money and the like. And the ones just playing the few games they had as a kid, maybe picking up a couple titles at the store if they remember hearing about them. Those two will probably still buy the classic + platforms because they're accurate enough and aren't too expensive. I think that's going to be an interesting demographic that will grow and i think this works for them.