How long until the FPGA fad runs out?

[MrBeefy]

25 minutes ago, donjn said:

I always think of an idea for an interesting article called:

"Atari is trying to get you to buy Asteroids 5 times in your life."

 

Whats going on at Atari is not unlike Bethesda trying to get you to purchase Skyrim 3 times.

I feel like remakes of games that aren't that old are cash grabs and likely a product of people not taking the time to make newer games that are good. I think Last of Us is the most recent example of such a thing.

[juansolo]

FPGA is an attempt at cycle accurate replication (and preservation) of the hardware. The MiSTer project, and whatever might follow it, is a righteous thing. For me it was the Amiga. I'd been running Amibian but found myself to be utter crap at Shuffle Puck Cafe. I couldn't fathom it, I used to be good at that game. I bought an A1200 and I could play it on that no problem, same with a MiSTer. It all came down to an almost imperceptable amount of lag. I was sensitive to that, other's might not be and are fine with emulation. Both keep these systems alive beyond the availability of the original hardware.

 

Veering off topic for the person who brought up plasma vs LCD. As an early adopter back in the day, I couldn't handle early LCDs motion. Because they have a persistent image that gets overdrawn by the next frame, they had motion smearing for a long time into their lives. Plasma's picture is built up of several frames that degrade before the next creating a shuttering effect like a CRT or film does giving much smoother motion. This is still a problem with OLEDs, which is why high framerate ones have the option of Black Frame Insertion. Essentially blanking the screen between every active frame to give that shuttering effect.

 

The current problem I have even with modern LCD's are the ones with matrixed backlights as they create halo's around light items on dark backgrounds due to the relatively low resolution of the LED backlights vs the pixels of the panel. I notice it every time I see one that does it. That said, I have a friend with a couple of very large LCDs, one of which is an early 4K (non-HDR) set that has static backlights and that's got an insanely good picture and motion. It's the only one I've ever seen that I couldn't fault in any way. It's replacement had a matrixed backlight and is HDR. It was blindingly bright and has obviously perfect blacks. But I see those damn halos all the time and it distracts the hell out of me. I much prefer the more natural, if less dynamic, picture of the earlier set.

 

I still have a plasma... All panel tech has flaws and I utterly dispise 'smart' TVs. I need someone to create a 42" HDR OLED monitor with BFI and VFR and nothing else. But currently all TVs are loaded with processing and online bollocks... I hate all that nonsense with a passion.

Edited March 30 by juansolo

[Glorkbot]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:38 PM, Giles N said:

I will however rate my Analogue Pocket (which built on openFPGA) with adapter set

a  clear  10/10 

 

 

Analogue Pocket is awesome but it won’t play any Atari games that use DPC+. It’s pretty bad for any Atari games that use paddles too. So, not as good as Stella for Atari games.

Edited March 30 by Glorkbot

[Giles N]

3 hours ago, Glorkbot said:

Analogue Pocket is awesome

It’s pretty bad for any Atari games that use paddles too. So, not as good as Stella for Atari games.

Yet, the Analogue Pocket is smaller than-,  and costs less than-, a Steam Deck

Edited March 30 by Giles N

[roots.genoa]

8 hours ago, Glorkbot said:

Analogue Pocket is awesome but it won’t play any Atari games that use DPC+.

Because a DPC+ is basically a chip in the cart that is way more powerful than the Atari 2600. It's almost as absurd as that Doom port on NES which is basically a PC in a NES cart, the console only handling the controllers and the display.

[Glorkbot]

21 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Because a DPC+ is basically a chip in the cart that is way more powerful than the Atari 2600. It's almost as absurd as that Doom port on NES which is basically a PC in a NES cart, the console only handling the controllers and the display.

Sure, but it doesn't really matter "why." The Analogue Pocket is awesome, but it's not the best way to play your Atari games on a modern device. I still play Atari games on it almost every day though, lol. Because it's nice and small and right next to my bed. So...in that sense, maybe it IS the best way, haha!

[phoenixdownita]

39 minutes ago, Glorkbot said:

Sure, but it doesn't really matter "why." The Analogue Pocket is awesome, but it's not the best way to play your Atari games on a modern device. I still play Atari games on it almost every day though, lol. Because it's nice and small and right next to my bed. So...in that sense, maybe it IS the best way, haha!

You mean games developed in 2010 and beyond … I get it that unless it plays everything someone would complain at the same time the original library is covered.

 

(I do not have a Pocket so I don’t care either way, is there even a 2600 adapter already?)

Edited March 31 by phoenixdownita

[roots.genoa]

5 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

(I do not have a Pocket so I don’t care either way, is there even a 2600 adapter already?)

No, which is why it is a little unfair. The Pocket tends to recreate the hardware inside the original system, not the extra chips in the carts. It was the same for the Mega Sg and Super Nt for instance. However, every cart should work, including carts that contain extra chips, like they would on an original system.

 

But there are no adapters for the 2600, so you can only use ROMs (which Analogue doesn't even acknowledge officially, like the jailbreak for the Nt Mini). And ROMs don't include chips obviously (that's why some flashcarts include FPGA circuits to recreate those chips). Bear in mind that systems like the 2600+ that actually dump the carts on the fly can't read DPC+ games either for the same reason, and yet they use real carts.

[M-S]

FPGA is getting cheaper, but at a very slow pace, the Tang boards from Sipeed are the only ones I can think of that are below the average price and can play games, the Nano 20k can play most NES games and a few SNES games and costs less than 30 dollars, the FPGA GBC from FunnyPlaying also is more affordable than other options. But everything else that I can think of is in the 180U$+ range.

I can see NES, SNES and Mega Drive clones getting more accurate in the near future and even other 8/16-bit systems being produced without FPGAs, but I don't think anyone would go through the effort of producing later consoles like the PS1 and the N64, meanwhile you can emulate them decently on the MiSTer.

[Video]

I was overall happy with my analog pocket console, which is close to perfect for game boy games. Idk if there is custom chips in fpga or anything. From everything I've read, like it or lump it, fpga is just emulation. Its better from the standpoint of not being saddled with an unneeded os (like windows or whatever) and from this standpoint it can be more accurate as it doesn't have to deal with the os stealing processing power or whatever.

 

As a result, fpga, unlike standard emulation, requires a bit more work, and at least at the moment, is much more expensive than standard emulation. It also is usually functionally better. As long as this remains true, I hope fpga sticks around. Unless someone wants to do 1 to 1 replication of the chipset itself, fpga is still currently the best option.

[Giles N]

1 hour ago, Video said:

As a result, fpga, unlike standard emulation, requires a bit more work, and at least at the moment, is much more expensive than standard emulation. It also is usually functionally better. As long as this remains true, I hope fpga sticks around. Unless someone wants to do 1 to 1 replication of the chipset itself, fpga is still currently the best option.

Yup - how long will the Ferrari-fad last… c’mon who really wants a Ferrari when they can have a Fiat cheaper…?

[+batari]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:26 PM, roots.genoa said:

Because a DPC+ is basically a chip in the cart that is way more powerful than the Atari 2600. It's almost as absurd as that Doom port on NES which is basically a PC in a NES cart, the console only handling the controllers and the display.

I'd say the "absurdity" is more in the ballpark of the Sega 32x than the project you are referring to.

[roots.genoa]

3 hours ago, batari said:

I'd say the "absurdity" is more in the ballpark of the Sega 32x than the project you are referring to.

I admit the 32X was clunky but I disagree with that comparison since the extra chips were in the 32X, not the game carts. So you only buy them once for instance.

Edited April 1 by roots.genoa

[+batari]

4 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

I admit the 32X was clunky but I disagree with that comparison since the extra chips were in the 32X, not the game carts. So you only buy them once for instance.

Well, to be more clear, I didn't mean to compare ARM carts to the 32X itself, but more to the 32x with a 32x cart plugged into it.

[roots.genoa]

And I still don't get it. 32X carts don't have extra chips. The extra power is in the system itself; it's not "cheating" like the DPC+, the SVP, Super FX, MSU1, etc.

[+batari]

10 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

And I still don't get it. 32X carts don't have extra chips. The extra power is in the system itself; it's not "cheating" like the DPC+, the SVP, Super FX, MSU1, etc

It's not hard to understand. The ARM carts are programmable carts, so it's essentially like having a 32x and a 32x cart all in one. Like 32x, ARM carts do not bypass any chips and go direct to video out like NES Doom. You're practically just using the console for power. The ARM in DPC+ is just a coprocessor for the 6507, like 32x.

 

If DPC+ is cheating, then so are all 32x products.

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, batari said:

It's not hard to understand. The ARM carts are programmable carts, so it's essentially like having a 32x and a 32x cart all in one. Like 32x, ARM carts do not bypass any chips and go direct to video out like NES Doom. You're practically just using the console for power. The ARM in DPC+ is just a coprocessor for the 6507, like 32x.

 

If DPC+ is cheating, then so are all 32x products.

The 32x totally does bypass video, it performs genlock on the genesis out if you want to but it was totally meant to replace rather than augment with the advantage of passthru for back compat and genlock so one can use the base genesis for background gfx and fm sound in 32x games if it makes sense.

 

It was cheating in the sense of extending the lifetime of the Genny into “next gen” and should not have been made given the Saturn shipped the same month in JP. But it is what it is, the base tech was early 90 so contemporary with the genny (if we want that to count). Now the SegaCD was a “coprocessor” pattern if you will but that’s another story.

 

The DPC+ is “cheating” in the sense that it’s 2010 tech applied to a 70s console … results are great for homebrewers and given it’s all about nostalgia and fun and games I don’t care but citing DPC+ support as and endorsement for sw emu of 2600 vs fpga is nonsense to me … tbh I have not seen an fpga 2600 using carts and see if that plays DPC+ games (from carts as well obviously).

 

 

Edited April 1 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

18 hours ago, Video said:

I was overall happy with my analog pocket console, which is close to perfect for game boy games. Idk if there is custom chips in fpga or anything. From everything I've read, like it or lump it, fpga is just emulation. Its better from the standpoint of not being saddled with an unneeded os (like windows or whatever) and from this standpoint it can be more accurate as it doesn't have to deal with the os stealing processing power or whatever.

Not quite but the words are about right and the Pocket is fpga just to be precise.

 

Emulation used to mean sw based and used to carry negative connotations due to not being that precise/faithful so fpga used a different term (well tried to).

SW emulation does not require an OS, you can write it metal to run directly on the hw.
FPGA instead works at the circuit level, and it can be more accurate due to working at the interconnect level … but it is not “creating” transistors but reimplementing logical functions. Even if we use the same word (programming) for an fpga it’s a totally different beast. 
 

We can use the word emulation for both but fpga bare do nothing at all vs an actual cpu, so in that sense emulation is not the right term either.

 

Both kinds have made great strides and only are as precise as the knowledge we have of those systems, sw emulation requires very powerful machines but we have them aplenty and cheap nowadays so … fpga allows reconfiguration so a single hw system can morph to be many things but because of that they aren’t cheap … ASICs would be cheaper but they are fixed function (think noac/goac) and need to be built in volumes to be cheap.

 

 

You can ignore all the differences and stay at the top as a simple gamer but the differences exist, run very deep and to some are meaningful.

Edited April 1 by phoenixdownita

[zzip]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:48 AM, juansolo said:

The current problem I have even with modern LCD's are the ones with matrixed backlights as they create halo's around light items on dark backgrounds due to the relatively low resolution of the LED backlights vs the pixels of the panel. I notice it every time I see one that does it. That said, I have a friend with a couple of very large LCDs, one of which is an early 4K (non-HDR) set that has static backlights and that's got an insanely good picture and motion. It's the only one I've ever seen that I couldn't fault in any way. It's replacement had a matrixed backlight and is HDR. It was blindingly bright and has obviously perfect blacks. But I see those damn halos all the time and it distracts the hell out of me. I much prefer the more natural, if less dynamic, picture of the earlier set.

I don't have a matrixed backlight LCD,  but I always expected that they'd create visual weirdness--  all in the name of better blacks in some dark scenes.   To me my LCD screens blacks are dark enough that my brain doesn't even notice they aren't "true black" unless I'm thinking about it.

[+batari]

7 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

The DPC+ is “cheating” in the sense that it’s 2010 tech applied to a 70s console … results are great for homebrewers and given it’s all about nostalgia and fun and games I don’t care but citing DPC+ support as and endorsement for sw emu of 2600 vs fpga is nonsense to me … tbh I have not seen an fpga 2600 using carts and see if that plays DPC+ games (from carts as well obviously).

It's actually 1993 tech, if you consider the ARM core being used was first released in that year.

[+batari]

8 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

Not quite but the words are about right and the Pocket is fpga just to be precise.

 

Emulation used to mean sw based and used to carry negative connotations due to not being that precise/faithful so fpga used a different term (well tried to).

SW emulation does not require an OS, you can write it metal to run directly on the hw.
FPGA instead works at the circuit level, and it can be more accurate due to working at the interconnect level … but it is not “creating” transistors but reimplementing logical functions. Even if we use the same word (programming) for an fpga it’s a totally different beast. 
 

We can use the word emulation for both but fpga bare do nothing at all vs an actual cpu, so in that sense emulation is not the right term either.

 

Both kinds have made great strides and only are as precise as the knowledge we have of those systems, sw emulation requires very powerful machines but we have them aplenty and cheap nowadays so … fpga allows reconfiguration so a single hw system can morph to be many things but because of that they aren’t cheap … ASICs would be cheaper but they are fixed function (think noac/goac) and need to be built in volumes to be cheap.

 

 

You can ignore all the differences and stay at the top as a simple gamer but the differences exist, run very deep and to some are meaningful.

It isn't clear if you really understand how these ARM carts work. The ARM chip's IO is directly connected to the hardware and literally produces produces and responds to logic signals in real time just like actual logic can do. They are not just "bare metal" but they are literally emulating hardware in a cycle-accurate way, in some cases down to around 5ns of resolution. At the level needed to emulate certain legacy hardware, there is literally no way to tell the difference between an ARM and an a FPGA.

 

A CPU and FPGA are more similar than FPGA proponents would like to believe. Each is a reconfigurable state machine in its essence, and in this realm there is actually a lot of overlap in the tasks that each can perform in a 100% cycle-accurate way.

 

The only practical difference between the two is an FPGA can be programmed to do many things at the same time and each CPU core can only do one thing at a time. But hardware emulation of a legacy device is not incredibly complicated, and may run 1/50th the speed, maybe even a few hundredths of the speed. So the advantage of doing things in parallel that a FPGA offers is a lot less important. Suppose you can run your FPGA at 100 Mhz, and your ARM at the same speed, but the system being emulated is 1 MHz? Who cares if an FPGA can do 10 things in parallel, if the CPU can do these 10 things one step at a time, as long as you complete the task within the time allotted by the hardware, this benefit goes away and there is no way to tell the difference.

 

CPUs will get faster, and legacy systems will stay the same. Sooner or later as this gap widens, we will have the ability to have a cycle-accurate, drop-in replacement chips that run on a CPU. Although we may not yet at the point where an ARM chip can perform 100% cycle-accurate hardware emulation of, say, the Atari 2600's TIA chip, I think it's just a matter of time before we are.

[Zonie]

FPGA's have Aerospace, military, and industrial applications. There is a bigger world out there than retro gaming...

 

Hell, some of the PLC's out there now could probably run an emulator and have all the Digital and Analog IO right there for you, plus motion control for controller feedback...

[KainXavier]

FPGA devices are just another means to achieve the same thing.  Use whatever suits your needs and fits your budget!

 

@roots.genoa

 

How are ARM-enhanced games for the 2600 any different than Super FX games for the SNES?

 

Edit: Nevermind, I see you referenced the Super FX in a different post. 

 

But do you really think SNES emulators shouldn't bother with supporting games like DOOM and Star Fox?

Edited April 2 by KainXavier

[roots.genoa]

3 hours ago, KainXavier said:

FPGA devices are just another means to achieve the same thing.  Use whatever suits your needs and fits your budget!

 

@roots.genoa

 

How are ARM-enhanced games for the 2600 any different than Super FX games for the SNES?

 

Edit: Nevermind, I see you referenced the Super FX in a different post. 

 

But do you really think SNES emulators shouldn't bother with supporting games like DOOM and Star Fox?

I'm not saying that. I'm just trying to explain an important difference between a software emulator and FPGA emulation, that's all.

[phoenixdownita]

16 hours ago, batari said:

It's actually 1993 tech, if you consider the ARM core being used was first released in that year.

Yes but I seriously doubt it made any economic sense to put one into a game cart for the 2600. The gba used it and it’s a 2001 product.

At any rate this is all beside the point, apologies for the detour here.

 

15 hours ago, batari said:

It isn't clear if you really understand how these ARM carts work. The ARM chip's IO is directly connected to the hardware and literally produces produces and responds to logic signals in real time just like actual logic can do. They are not just "bare metal" but they are literally emulating hardware in a cycle-accurate way, in some cases down to around 5ns of resolution. At the level needed to emulate certain legacy hardware, there is literally no way to tell the difference between an ARM and an a FPGA.

 

A CPU and FPGA are more similar than FPGA proponents would like to believe. Each is a reconfigurable state machine in its essence, and in this realm there is actually a lot of overlap in the tasks that each can perform in a 100% cycle-accurate way.

….

My response was in relation to a gentlemen post that stated that the proper way to play 2600 games was via sw emu (I presume Stella) because it can play “teh romz” of DPC+ games vs fpga alternatives that cannot.

 

This was about full system emu and not what’s in any specific cart.

 

fpgas are not cpus (and I know you know it) but when it comes to interfacing from a cart or other ports to legacy system yup very fast microcontrollers with enough gpio can play the part (even to the point to be viable as cheap replacement for whole cpus like the pistorm for amiga etc..). So we are not in disagreement.

 

I don’t understand why people of either camp get defensive about their chosen impl … I play on both depending on convenience.

 

Wrt “cheating” I guess the word is too negative, let’s use augmentation.  Obviously the base console bare couldn’t achieve such results and the tech that is age appropriate or whereabout was just either not there (I mean the first commercial flash chips where in the late 80s and not cheap, the first commercial CF dates 1994 and the MMC std 1997 …) or too expensive (clear example with the Sega SVP chip that made the game cost 2/2.5x the normal price … not sure what the SNES enhanced games costed).

 

I found these modern augmentations via cart (microcontroller based like your DPC+ or the C4cpc for gx4000 and others or fpga based like the sd2snes with overclock support or streaming audio) exhilarating when it comes to what they can make these old clunkers do … at the same time that is not what the original library sounds or looks like … that’s it, and no in the timeframe the console was relevant similar results couldn’t be achieved in economical reasonable ways. No judgment passed, no personal attack, I can appreciate the final product for what it is either way, there’s really no losing for the gamers imho.