2600/7800+ Light Gun Support

[IcedCornholio]

1. Is there any chance Atari will release a new light gun that has support for the 7800+ and for today's TVs? Or is that not physically possible? 

[+Fred_M]

I would not count on it. There are some lightguns (like the Sinden lightgun) out there that can work with modern TVs for a very limited number of consoles/PCs and are quite expensive.

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, Fred_M said:

I would not count on it. There are some lightguns (like the Sinden lightgun) out there that can work with modern TVs for a very limited number of consoles/PCs and are quite expensive.

Yeah - the cheapest ones are more expensive that the entire 2600+/7800+ console.

 

In theory they could be made to work through the USB-c port, but definitely not through the regular controller port. But there's only 3 games that might support it. Not worth the extra cost, IMO.

[BTC]

To paraphrase a post I made on a related topic:

 

If they offer an Atari+ light gun for new TVs at anything close to the Sinden price, I'll buy one. It seems odd to buy a light gun for close to the same price as the console, but stranger things have been offered and been successful.

I have the 7800+ on order along with a bunch of new controllers (my old ones are well worn), and I would love to add a light gun and applicable games to my Atari shopping cart. I always wanted one back in the day, and never got one. If they do this, maybe we could even get a port of Qwak for the platform.

Since Sinden already has the technology worked out, this shouldn't require too much dev work to get it working on the Atari+ systems.

[DEANJIMMY]

If the Trakball in TB mode will work on the 7800+, the light gun games could get a hack in FW to support it.

Not the same but far better than joystick controls🤔

[Ben from Plaion]

11 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said:

If the Trakball in TB mode will work on the 7800+, the light gun games could get a hack in FW to support it.

Not the same but far better than joystick controls🤔

I asked someone about this just the other day and it didnt seem as easy as you'd think

[+Fred_M]

The way a lightgun works is totally different to any other controller. English is not my native language, so I copied a text from another website:

 

"The computer blanks the screen and then paints the entire screen white. It takes time for the electron beam (used in a CRT TV) to trace the entire screen while painting it white. By comparing the signal coming from the photodiode with the horizontal and vertical retrace signals, the computer can detect where the electron beam is on the screen when the photodiode first senses its light. The computer counts the number of microseconds that pass between the time the horizontal and vertical retrace signals start and the time the photodiode first senses light. The number of microseconds tells the computer exactly where on the screen the gun is pointing. If the calculated position and the position of the target match, the computer scores a hit."

Source: https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question273.htm

 

This is also the explanation why lightguns don't work on modern TVs, because they use a completely different technology to generate the display.

 

I guess a firmware "hack" will not be enough to support a trackball (or something similar). I think the only solution would be to rewrite the source code of the game to support other controllers.

[PowerDubs]

Are we talking about the same Atari that owns 53% undiluted of this?  

 

 

 

[MarcinJ]

59 minutes ago, Fred_M said:

The way a lightgun works is totally different to any other controller. English is not my native language, so I copied a text from another website:

 

"The computer blanks the screen and then paints the entire screen white. It takes time for the electron beam (used in a CRT TV) to trace the entire screen while painting it white. By comparing the signal coming from the photodiode with the horizontal and vertical retrace signals, the computer can detect where the electron beam is on the screen when the photodiode first senses its light. The computer counts the number of microseconds that pass between the time the horizontal and vertical retrace signals start and the time the photodiode first senses light. The number of microseconds tells the computer exactly where on the screen the gun is pointing. If the calculated position and the position of the target match, the computer scores a hit."

Source: https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question273.htm

 

This is also the explanation why lightguns don't work on modern TVs, because they use a completely different technology to generate the display.

 

I guess a firmware "hack" will not be enough to support a trackball (or something similar). I think the only solution would be to rewrite the source code of the game to support other controllers.

The only way I can think how to create a working light gun for modern TVs is rather impractical and expensive. You would need a small camera, which records and process the whole TV screen, traces the light gun to the pixels on the screen. I guess 2600+ has not computing power even to manage that. It is not worth the effort for a few hundred people interested to buy it. 

[+Fred_M]

1 hour ago, PowerDubs said:

Are we talking about the same Atari that owns 53% undiluted of this?  

 

 

 

That one is based on the Sinden lightgun I mentoined earlier (so it is not technology Polymega owns). It costs about $100 and is not compatible with Atari consoles.

 

Like others already said, for a handful of lightgun games this option does not look commercially viable to me.

[PowerDubs]

I don't know who owns what 'tech'...but I know that is the forthcoming lightgun...on a modern TV...and Atari owns a large portion of the company selling it...

[insertclevernamehere]

I'd buy one for $100 if they made it compatible with the + consoles.  And if they rereleased the handful of light gun games at the same time. Especially if Alien Brigade was the pack in.  Hell, I'd pay even more if that was the pack in. And if that happened, maybe there'd be more light gun home brews.  I know of one already in development.

[Ben from Plaion]

11 minutes ago, insertclevernamehere said:

I'd buy one for $100 if they made it compatible with the + consoles.  And if they rereleased the handful of light gun games at the same time. Especially if Alien Brigade was the pack in.  Hell, I'd pay even more if that was the pack in. And if that happened, maybe there'd be more light gun home brews.  I know of one already in development.

Yeah, it would be nice, but it doesnt seem easy - tech to make it work, manufacturing complications, licensing hurdles and commercial profit and loss calculations on projected sales make it an upwards struggle. 

Edited Monday at 08:33 PM by Ben from Plaion

[Ben from Plaion]

double post

Edited Monday at 08:32 PM by Ben from Plaion

[DEANJIMMY]

11 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

I asked someone about this just the other day and it didnt seem as easy as you'd think

Hello Ben,

I had Alien Brigade and Crossbow  in mind which support joystick controls and I played them with my Trakball in JS mode. Works but you have to roll the ball too much which would not be the case in TB mode. Yes, it would take the same effort Thomas put on his hacks and on pure lightgun games even much more. I don't have one of those pure LG games anymore, since my last CRT left the house carried away by two very strong man😉

Thanks!

 

Edit: I actually still have one "CRT" left, called Vectrex😅

Edited yesterday at 04:38 AM by DEANJIMMY

[Defender_2600]

2 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said:

I had Alien Brigade and Crossbow  in mind which support joystick controls and I played them with my Trakball in JS mode. Works but you have to roll the ball too much which would not be the case in TB mode. Yes, it would take the same effort Thomas put on his hacks and on pure lightgun games even much more.

 

We can't generalize, every game needs its own evaluation. A major rewrite may be needed, and often we don't have the source code and/or license.

 

For example, there is a reason why we didn't get Crystal Castles TB on 2600:

 

"I only had a very brief look at Crystal Castles and found no free time in the kernel. So I would expect a major rewrite. And as soon as DPC/ARM is required, a complete rewrite would be most likely much more effective."

 

 

 

[+jeremiahjt]

On 9/22/2024 at 12:38 PM, John Stamos Mullet said:

Yeah - the cheapest ones are more expensive that the entire 2600+/7800+ console.

 

In theory they could be made to work through the USB-c port, but definitely not through the regular controller port. But there's only 3 games that might support it. Not worth the extra cost, IMO.

Three games? We have Sentinel, Meltdown, Barnyard Blaster, Crossbow, Alien Brigade, and 2600 Sentinel. If there was a light gun produced, Atari might even get somebody to finish Shooting Arcade.

[Video]

Light gun games, old 8 bit ones just look for light, the screen blanks when you pull the trigger, then it puts a white square where the target is. Don't take my word for it, get a high speed camera (240 fps should do) and record something like duck hunt and observe for yourself. If more than one target, it puts one square for one target, then blank, then a square for the other target. You either hit, or miss.

 

The problem is, all that delay LCD monitors do throw the timing off, so the targets aren't there when/where they are supposed to be, and original games can't cope. For a new game it would be an easy fix with calibration built into the game. Just have a calibration option with three targets, tell the player to pick on, shoot and hold, then flash a sequence of images, like 0,1,0,2,0,3,0,1,1,0,2,0,3,0,1,0,2,2,0,3,0,1,0,2,0,3,3,0, etc. The pattern lets the computer know which target your aiming at, and the game could estimate the milliseconds it has to wait before polling the light gun for "hit or miss" it absolutely is possible for a new game, but old games want a set time, though as the + consoles actually dump the cart, rather than read direct, it could handle calibration on the console side to help preexisting games.

 

I've never understood where "how light guns work" comes from, or how so many people get it wrong. Light guns are super simple, they see light and that's it. No dot crawl (that's light pens, and allows them to know where on the screen they are) no "counting scanlines" (the eye of the gun is a resolution of one pixel, and sees light or not, not scanlines) and not the trace phosphor or whatever they call it, that speed is not needed, and for slow 8 bit computers, probably not possible, though with a resolution of one pixel, the gun likely couldn't tell the beginning of a scan line from a middle. These things simply detect on/off, and LCD screwed the expected calibration so light guns broke, and as newer light guns work different (their looking for markers you add to the screen, think Wii light bar) the traditional light gun stayed in the 8bit era. I think its funny, I actually see these squares pop up on the screen, at 60 hz, anybody technically should, but with all the misinformation about how they work, some from programmers who SHOULD know better, I guess most peoples eyes aren't good enough to see it.

[John Stamos Mullet]

3 hours ago, jeremiahjt said:

Three games? We have Sentinel, Meltdown, Barnyard Blaster, Crossbow, Alien Brigade, and 2600 Sentinel. If there was a light gun produced, Atari might even get somebody to finish Shooting Arcade.

I wasn't aware Meltdown was a light gun game.

 

I was thinking Alien Brigade, Crossbow, and Barnyard Blaster. Sentinel is a proto that isn't available to buy anywhere.

[+Fred_M]

14 hours ago, Video said:

Light gun games, old 8 bit ones just look for light, the screen blanks when you pull the trigger, then it puts a white square where the target is. Don't take my word for it, get a high speed camera (240 fps should do) and record something like duck hunt and observe for yourself. If more than one target, it puts one square for one target, then blank, then a square for the other target. You either hit, or miss.

 

The problem is, all that delay LCD monitors do throw the timing off, so the targets aren't there when/where they are supposed to be, and original games can't cope. For a new game it would be an easy fix with calibration built into the game. Just have a calibration option with three targets, tell the player to pick on, shoot and hold, then flash a sequence of images, like 0,1,0,2,0,3,0,1,1,0,2,0,3,0,1,0,2,2,0,3,0,1,0,2,0,3,3,0, etc. The pattern lets the computer know which target your aiming at, and the game could estimate the milliseconds it has to wait before polling the light gun for "hit or miss" it absolutely is possible for a new game, but old games want a set time, though as the + consoles actually dump the cart, rather than read direct, it could handle calibration on the console side to help preexisting games.

 

I've never understood where "how light guns work" comes from, or how so many people get it wrong. Light guns are super simple, they see light and that's it. No dot crawl (that's light pens, and allows them to know where on the screen they are) no "counting scanlines" (the eye of the gun is a resolution of one pixel, and sees light or not, not scanlines) and not the trace phosphor or whatever they call it, that speed is not needed, and for slow 8 bit computers, probably not possible, though with a resolution of one pixel, the gun likely couldn't tell the beginning of a scan line from a middle. These things simply detect on/off, and LCD screwed the expected calibration so light guns broke, and as newer light guns work different (their looking for markers you add to the screen, think Wii light bar) the traditional light gun stayed in the 8bit era. I think its funny, I actually see these squares pop up on the screen, at 60 hz, anybody technically should, but with all the misinformation about how they work, some from programmers who SHOULD know better, I guess most peoples eyes aren't good enough to see it.

Not every system uses the same method the NES does. There are basicly 2 different ways how lightguns work. The white square and the white screen scanlines combo.

 

I had only put the text of the second method (white screen/scanlines) in my post, because the first method (the white square) is not used by Atari. Actually the Sega Master System uses the same method as Atari, that is why it is fairly easy to modify the Sega lightgun to work on an Atari.

 

The Atari lightgun does not count the scanlines, the console itself does and calculates (estimates) the position of the lightgun(see the explanation I posted a few days ago). If you don't believe me, take a look at countless Youtube videos 😉

 

For example this one:

 

And from that video:

 

 

Fire!

 

 

And here is the method the NES uses:

 

 

Fire!

 

[+Fred_M]

11 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Sentinel is a proto that isn't available to buy anywhere.

Edit: you were probably talking about the 2600 version 👍The 7800 version was released in PAL-land.

 

 

 

 

[+jeremiahjt]

13 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I wasn't aware Meltdown was a light gun game.

 

I was thinking Alien Brigade, Crossbow, and Barnyard Blaster. Sentinel is a proto that isn't available to buy anywhere.

2600 Sentinel was released in the US and while 7800 Sentinel did not get a US release, it did get released in Europe.