ThomSW Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Hey Teli! What about writting some supplement to your (HARD) demo's including information about real authors of particular parts (code/gfx/msx) in Veronika, Cool Emotion and Joyride. Well - SID emulation is rather impressive (at least in view of years you have created these demo's) but ripping the demoparts byte-by-byte from C64 sucked a lot. anyway... Greetz from The Bad Planet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Well - SID emulation is rather impressive (at least in view of years you have created these demo's) but ripping the demoparts byte-by-byte from C64 sucked a lot. As you said "emulation" .... High CPU cost with rather low quality. The combination of the "Hardsynth" technique plus some more CPU cost, will be more than the sum of either both. Simple Timing and some manipulations on the POKEY's voices, can give fully different sounds. Deep notes could be emulated and sound much more better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telisandor Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Hi! > What about writting some supplement to your (HARD) demo's including information about real > authors of particular parts (code/gfx/msx) in Veronika, Cool Emotion and Joyride. Huh, this would be really difficult for me. Things converted/emulated from C64 were mixed with our own code/gfx. Tunes can be easily identified by anyone, so it is pointless I think. I've composed some tunes for the Joyride, but those can be easily identified because they sound more like an Atari (the loader tunes, the plot tunnel music, the picture morpher tune, the title tune with digis, maybe some other, I don't remember exactly). For example the Roxette title tune was made by me pretty specially: I've made the 3 voice music in a C64 tracker, then I emulated it on Atari ..then I wrote a mini digi-tracker for the Atari just for composing the digi parts. ..gfx: This is a very hard part, since we've used many fonts from the C64, many logos were re-drawn from C64 to form the Hard logo and even more was drawn by me from sratch. The only thing I could tell easily is which routines were written by us and which were transferred from the C64 and modified to work on the Atari. For example Joyride contained a lot of our own routines, but if I remember well, there were still a few transferred/modified from the C64. > Well - SID emulation is rather impressive (at least in view of years you have created these demo's) Yes, it was a very unique sound on the Atari. Not because of the sound itself, but because of the quality of the musics. C64 tunes were a lot better even when you removed the extra waveforms/filters/ring modulation from it. The trackers were better and the composers were brilliant. > but ripping the demoparts byte-by-byte from C64 sucked a lot. Yes, I agree. I'm sorry about this now, but we were just kids back then (16 years old when releasing Veronika..). Now I'm 30, lived almost twice as many years than back in those days and I see things a lot more differently now. Anyway, in many cases it wasn't that easy as using them byte-by-byte. We had to learn a lot to re-use them on Atari. That's why we could write the same quality effects in Joyride, three years later. Now I think that it was still very good for the Atari users to watch/listen to those converted/re-used music, since a very few quality stuff existed for Atari back then. I think they were happy to see/hear all of this. I'm sorry about only one thing: We didn't mention the origin of the tunes/gfx/code in our demos. This is something I would do very differently now.. Anyway, our most popular demo is the Joyride and it contains mostly our own work. (still most of the musics and a few routines converted from the C64) Maybe the longest living result of our Atari "career" is the HIP (Hard Interlaced Picture) picture format which was developed by us (as Heaven/TQA always mentions it ), but was never used by us, since our next demo (Dressed for Success) was never released. Now, let's get this topic back to the Hardsynth, since it is not about Hard Software Regards, Téli Sándor, Hard Software Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telisandor Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 As you said "emulation" .... High CPU cost with rather low quality. The combination of the "Hardsynth" technique plus some more CPU cost, will be more than the sum of either both. Simple Timing and some manipulations on the POKEY's voices, can give fully different sounds. Deep notes could be emulated and sound much more better... Yes. This is why I joined this topic and posted a greetings about this Regards, Téli Sándor, Hard Software Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 i personally was blown away when watching first time Joyride esp. intro and the twirl + dot-tunnel loader with 2 voice msx... the PM-scroller in front of the amiga animation kicks ass as well and i tried to understand it when coding my own sprite multiplexer... boring thing was the dot tunnel with the pm-logo left and right. cool scroller is the one with the rotating chars (reminds my atari st... ) and the end was cool as well with the small screens (reminds me my all time fave amiga demo TINT at the end). btw. please send me email-adress of tamas... pleaaaaseee... thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telisandor Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 (edited) > intro By me, even the Roxette tune with digis (I've mentioned the short story of this tune in my earlier post). > twirl For example, this was our own idea/code. I've coded a 256 color version with a bit more advanced features that allowed to create something like waving water (after a waterdrop drops into it). It was meant to be released within the Dressed for Success package. >dot-tunnel loader with 2 voice msx... The loader plotter was a C64 routine initially, but Tomi worked a lot on it to make it work on the Atari. So it wasn't a simple byte-by-byte transfer at all. The two channel tunes for the loaders was composed by me on Atari, because we couldn't find a C64 tune which we liked when playing only two channels of it The SIO was completly re-implemented by Tomi to allow playing two channel music when loading (it also loads faster on an unmodified 1050 and eats less CPU time than the original). > the boring dot tunnel by me+Tomi > the PM-scroller in front of the amiga animation kicks ass The sprite scroller on the Atari was my own idea and 100% my code. I've created a spinning sprite cube from sprite dots which could be displayed over anything (also over the Atari basic sreen for example). It wasn't released either. > cool scroller is the one with the rotating chars (reminds my atari st... ) It was converted from the C64. > and the end was cool as well with the small screens (reminds me my all time fave amiga demo TINT at the end). It was my own code/design. I don't remember the chars we've used there.. Some other parts you didn't mention here, but there were lots of our own routines in Joyride. For example: landscape by me, the laser-like thing by me, the multi-level chessboard by Tomi, the mixed-mode face morphing, the plasma (the origin of the HIP story), etc... I don't remember all of the parts.. I'm glad you mentioned some of our own routines as your favorites > btw. please send me email-adress of tamas... pleaaaaseee... I've sent him your email address and he told me he'll contact you. I'll ask him again Regards, Téli Sándor, Hard Software p.s.: Please let's give back this topic to emkay and his cool stuff! Edited December 21, 2006 by telisandor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 got in contact with Tamas... finally... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 23, 2006 Author Share Posted December 23, 2006 p.s.: Please let's give back this topic to emkay and his cool stuff! That's a word Btw: The main instrument is ONE instrument. No instrument for corrections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 24, 2006 Author Share Posted December 24, 2006 Some update on the last one.... Next I will try to make the FX more "Digi"... Perhaps someone wants to help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 25, 2006 Author Share Posted December 25, 2006 Some test on the "new feature" of RMT... > the longer envelope.... it makes it easier to have a better "Release" of an instrument. A recording would be needed for comparision, because of possible sound stops on the real thing. BTW: It's still single VBI .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Different setup of the last one. Well... It's still problematic to play high notes, because the emulation gives sometimes "resulting" noises that move slightly the pitch (Pokey itself does really better).... But, it's just another "suggestion" of the possible .... ihmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Hm... the high notes are really hard to handle. Either in the emulation and by the 50Hz VBI timing. Notes above "D4" always has some "clicks" it's possible to handle this with with double VBI Speed.... Found an IMHO very good way between pitch genration and "click" reduction .... BTW:A Kingdom for a better Envelope handling.... Normally one can only create a "one way" envelope. Giving the possibility of playing it backwards, would enhance the FX extremely. Example: FX Up is done by 00f 01f Repeat this 100 times,the FX pitches up Now, before the generators come into the "sound elimination" state simply play it backwards... f00 f10 ... to make the FX pitch go down.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 I wonder, If someone is able to convert Hippel Corso Tunes into 3 Channel Mod files? I think, this is the best base for making interesting music with good quality pokey sounding, because there will never be any musician creating any good sound-quality tunes for pokey itself... HC Tunes are in the right pitch and they have 3 channels. Giving enough playground and space for my experiments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) Emkay composing gain (This is a test of music recognition. Not the same as below . Please feel free for a comment. ) Edited January 4, 2007 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 This one sounds more relaxed.... some unwanted noises are really not to handle with 50Hz VBI speed. But listen for yourself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Any chance you could do a nice filtered remix of "Spanish Flea" (aka Montezuma's Revenge theme) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Any chance you could do a nice filtered remix of "Spanish Flea" (aka Montezuma's Revenge theme) ? Possibly. If there is any chance of a MOD file with that tune? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Any chance you could do a nice filtered remix of "Spanish Flea" (aka Montezuma's Revenge theme) ? Possibly. If there is any chance of a MOD file with that tune? Perhaps someone has the notation of that tune around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I did a search. Seems to be nothing in the way of .MODs, and the downloadable sheet music all seems to be pay-for-download. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 Still no inspiration yet? The difference here, on the higher notes: They are of limited length, so it is possible to do some adjustment on the end of the played note for the next one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Wow, still more impressive job, emkay the main thing I really appreciate (though at some points in the song there are pitch corrections needed) that the whole sound balance is really powerful. The bass sound is really heavy. I reccommend all future Pokey composers to never use the generator C ever again for basses. The main voices with filtered instruments also sound very well balanced and free of unwanted noises. it still seems that POKEY hasn't revealed all it's powers. Soon we need to write a modern Pokey manual of 'how to use the REAL POKEY' ----- mux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 yup. nice sounds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 Wow, still more impressive job, emkay the main thing I really appreciate (though at some points in the song there are pitch corrections needed) that the whole sound balance is really powerful. The bass sound is really heavy. I reccommend all future Pokey composers to never use the generator C ever again for basses. The main voices with filtered instruments also sound very well balanced and free of unwanted noises. it still seems that POKEY hasn't revealed all it's powers. Soon we need to write a modern Pokey manual of 'how to use the REAL POKEY' ----- mux Well, everybody may feel free to adjust some of the missed pitches :-) Here the RMT File of the last one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 i try rmt: http://atari.pl/leander.sap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 i try rmt: http://atari.pl/leander.sap No offence. The tunes melody sounds nice. But, it's exactly what I try do explain since years now: Using standard 64 kHz makes the sound "thin" and the "C" or "E" genrators never sound stable (plus they are not real base tones). Using the 15kHz, gives always straight sounds. Problems here: using 4 channels sounds always a bit too deep. A Combination of 15/64kHz works, when a channel is clocked by 1.79MHz The Tracker made by swiety seems able to control that, and use a 16 Bit Channel with 1.79MHz Clocking, so switching between 15kHz and 64kHz does not interfere with that voice. So in the SID-PLAYER" you don't hear "C" or "E" sounds. My techniques use always 15kHz. With the Filter voice, the audible Pitch is higher than the "real" pitch on the pokey. Changing the timing between the filtered voices, changes the pitch(gives a varation) between the max. of one voice and the sum of both voices. One Channel is used for 15/1.79 (percussion, drums, hihats etc.) and one channel plays another voice as needed: Sometimes at 15kHz (gen "A") or 1.79MHZ(gen "2"). "My" Techniques ARE working, but there is no tracker really supporting it. So I have to "trick out" RMT and the emulation, to have the right sounding on the real thing. And, at the End, I'm really not good in music making, so I really appreciate people that can do better music than me: "Please use my techniques and put the right tune in". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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