NEW MIO production run.

[+Allan]

Would it ever be possible for someone to clone the 1090XL? It would be great to have expansion slots like the Apple IIe/IIGS have. There are bunch of boards coming out for those machines that have been made easier to do due to the expansion slots.

 

Allan

 

Yeah the 1090XL pics I have seen dont have any "custom" hardware on them. Its basically a backplane and a few bus transcievers.. But if that was gonna become a "standard" it would have had to do so back in the day when ATARI was producing and selling 8-bit hardware. Your not gonna see it become entrenched as a standard now. It makes no since to expect it to. Theres too wide of a range of interest-level and financial commital among users of the atari community now. In other words, unless you GAVE a 1090xl to everyone out there, you wouldnt see enough people adopt that "expansion card" as a hardware development standard, and lots of people will still be making cheaper "expansion hacks" which would be attractive due to the fact that they can be applied directly to the base machine without having the "expansion chassis".. If there was an existing base of support for the thing from stuff that was sold back in the day (like there is for devices like the MIO and BlackBOX) that would be different. Also remember the 1090XL is JUST an expansion backplane. It doesnt do ANYTHING without a) some hardware developer's card in it.. and B)appropriate firmware/software support for the devices plugged into it.. SO thats a LONG WAY to expect the extrememly diversified ATARI community to go nowadayze with no preexisting user/owner/software-support base for the thing..

 

So yeah its easiy as hell to clone that thing.. No, I dont think it would be worth doing... Yes, Id love to have one just to play around with... Yes I wish ATARI had sold it and established it as a standard back when it could have become one.

 

Yea, what you say makes sence and I agree. Really the only nice thing about the 1090 is that you can have multiple PBI devices hooked up to it so that you wouldn't have to unplug one device to use another. Yes you can have PBI devices have pass-thru connectors but you would have a very deep and unstable computer set-up with even a couple of devices hooked up. It would be great to have everything all in one box like the IIe/IIGS.

 

It seems the cartridge port is the most popular expansion method used on the Atari 8-bits today with stuff like the MyIDE and the USB carts. It just gets to be a pain to use all these together without having to swap them in and out. I think the biggest issue is that modern hardware development has been more spiradict on the Atari 8-bits so there hasn't been has much forethought into how to make all these hardware devices work together.

 

And talking about using cartridges, how many carts can you use at once on an 8-bit? Could somebody build a multi-cart expansion box like the one used with the 130XE and MIO but with more connectors and have say a USB cart, a Clock cart, a DOS cart, a MyIDE cart, and a 80 column cart all connected at once? Maybe that's a better solution than a PBI device since there are so many more things that use the cartridge connector. I don't even know if that's possible.

 

Allan

[sup8pdct]

And talking about using cartridges, how many carts can you use at once on an 8-bit? Could somebody build a multi-cart expansion box like the one used with the 130XE and MIO but with more connectors and have say a USB cart, a Clock cart, a DOS cart, a MyIDE cart, and a 80 column cart all connected at once? Maybe that's a better solution than a PBI device since there are so many more things that use the cartridge connector. I don't even know if that's possible.

 

Allan

 

I personally have had 3 connected together. SDX, R-Time 8 and my special oss cart with all 4 oss languages in it.

I also made a small piece of folded metal to hold them straight.

one problem with a multi expansion box is the pass through carts, namely SDX, the express cart and the windows cart thingy.

they need to disable access to the cart in the pass through connector.

A games only one should be possible tho

 

James

[Mathy]

Hello guys

 

I don't know if current versions are "smarter", but the first version of MyIDE blocked all the addresses in the $D5xx range.

 

One of the developers of the MSC-IDE interface (a 16 bit IDE interface using the parallel bus) told me he tried 4 of their interfaces on an XL or XE at the same time. With succes. He used a small interface (IIRC no more than a board with 5 connectors on it, not even buffered) to connect all 4 of them at the same time. The MSC-IDE interface used jumpers so you could set the PB ID number it would react to.

 

Unfortunately, the BlackBox will not share the bus as is. But the other developer of the MSC-IDE interface told me this could be cured with some electronic components available for pocket change at every electronics store. Guus Assmann confermed this. But neither one of them wanted to tell me how it's done.

 

BTW the BlackBox doesn't really conferm to the PBI standard either.

 

And I haven't talked to either developer of the MSC-IDE interface for years.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[MEtalGuy66]

Hello guys

 

I don't know if current versions are "smarter", but the first version of MyIDE blocked all the addresses in the $D5xx range.

 

One of the developers of the MSC-IDE interface (a 16 bit IDE interface using the parallel bus) told me he tried 4 of their interfaces on an XL or XE at the same time. With succes. He used a small interface (IIRC no more than a board with 5 connectors on it, not even buffered) to connect all 4 of them at the same time. The MSC-IDE interface used jumpers so you could set the PB ID number it would react to.

 

Unfortunately, the BlackBox will not share the bus as is. But the other developer of the MSC-IDE interface told me this could be cured with some electronic components available for pocket change at every electronics store. Guus Assmann confermed this. But neither one of them wanted to tell me how it's done.

 

BTW the BlackBox doesn't really conferm to the PBI standard either.

 

And I haven't talked to either developer of the MSC-IDE interface for years.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

 

MyIDE is a hack, not an interface.. The interface is built into the IDE or CF device.

 

As far as standard PBI devices sharing the bus, your right.. According to ATARI's standard, there are 8 possible "IDs" for PBI devices. If you read the articles at this link, you can get a good understanding of exactly what is entailed in designing devices to cooexist "peacefully" with eachother on the PBI bus.

 

The XL/XE PBI BUS parts 1-3 by Roland Scholz

 

This is all great in theory. unfortunately, there are several major problems that must be worked around, especially where the blackbox is concerned. Alot of the awesome functionality of the blackbox requires it to have sole use of the PBI bus. A firmware rewrite would be necessary in addition to the "minor hardware changes" you are referring to, and youd almost certainly have to limit or completely sacrifice some of the functionality of the black box. (not a good trade if you ask me. The black box is awesome as is). Im not going to go into the precise mechanical details here in this thread, but I'd be glad to discuss it via PM. Also, theres the issue of the weak and/or inprecise timing of the PHI2 signal on a great many ATARIs with certain production ranges of the 6502C CPU. Both the MIo and blackbox are often plagued with problems when hooked to one of these "effected" machines. There are fixes and workarounds, but the more stuff you physically add to the system bus of the atari, the more capacitance and/or inductance adds to the PHI2 instability. Im not saying there is no way to correct this, but Im saying that what is already a "temperamental" situation, to say the least (which varies widely from machine-to machine) is gonna be greatly magnified and require an almost "custom tuning" approach when you start sticking EVEN MORE bus loading than is currently the case with common PBI devices. As I stated above, a functional prototype doesnt equal an end-user product. Ive no doubt that the MSC-IDE guys were able to get multiple devices working on any given machine. Creating a stable and universal system for plugging the whole mess into ANY XL/XE without problems is a whole different ball-game..

Edited May 17, 2008 by MEtalGuy66

[Mathy]

Hello Ken

 

I've read Roland's articles more then ones. Better yet, I met him more then ones. But that was years ago.

 

Alot of the awesome functionality of the blackbox requires it to have sole use of the PBI bus. A firmware rewrite would be necessary in addition to the "minor hardware changes" you are referring to, and youd almost certainly have to limit or completely sacrifice some of the functionality of the black box. (not a good trade if you ask me. The black box is awesome as is). Im not going to go into the precise mechanical details here in this thread, but I'd be glad to discuss it via PM.

 

Discussing it is of no use, as I don't know enough about this. But Matthias Belitz (one of the developes of the MSC-IDE interface) and Guus Assmann (who's working on a new version (less chips -> smaller board) of the BlackBox) told me it could be done. And Bob Puff thought that if the existing software for/using the BlackBox didn't use certain bits, it would be possible too. That's all I know.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[MEtalGuy66]

Discussing it is of no use, as I don't know enough about this. But Matthias Belitz (one of the developes of the MSC-IDE interface) and Guus Assmann (who's working on a new version (less chips -> smaller board) of the BlackBox) told me it could be done. And Bob Puff thought that if the existing software for/using the BlackBox didn't use certain bits, it would be possible too. That's all I know.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

 

You should really give yourself more credit than that, after everything youve done.. I refer to stuff on your site pretty regularly.

 

In my oppinion, the black box is far superior to anything else you can plug into an atari. Bob Puff "owned everyone's ass" from a design (and especially firmware) standpoint when he made it.. And now, even after over 15 years, anyone and everyone else designing devices for the atari has got a long way to go to even equal it, let alone surpass it.

 

I am so glad that CSS sold as many as they did. It should be on the very top of the list of "wanted" items for every serious atari 8-bit collector/user. I really wish CSS would produce more of them, but that totally depends on the demand of the ATARI user base, and if everyone is willing to settle for half-functional cheap-assed "hacks" instead of paying for a clearly superior, well designed, and powerful device like the Black Box, then I have to support CSS in their decision to cease production.

[+bf2k+]

...

 

Also, theres the issue of the weak and/or inprecise timing of the PHI2 signal on a great many ATARIs with certain production ranges of the 6502C CPU. Both the MIo and blackbox are often plagued with problems when hooked to one of these "effected" machines.

...

 

Hmmm... I recently acquired an almost new looking 800xl... I mean this machine was beautiful! But when I hooked it up to my MIO, it wouldn't work. I thought it was something wrong with the PBI on the machine. I was eyeballing the traces looking for physical damage.

 

I wonder if the 800xl I got was one of those machines you are talking about?

 

Is the problem with the 6502C? I wonder if replacing it would solve the problem?

Edited May 18, 2008 by bf2k+

[themrfreeze]

I am so glad that CSS sold as many as they did. It should be on the very top of the list of "wanted" items for every serious atari 8-bit collector/user. I really wish CSS would produce more of them, but that totally depends on the demand of the ATARI user base, and if everyone is willing to settle for half-functional cheap-assed "hacks" instead of paying for a clearly superior, well designed, and powerful device like the Black Box, then I have to support CSS in their decision to cease production.

 

I don't think you'll ever see CSS resume production of their products. I'm the guy who built their stuff back in the late 80s and early 90s, and I was the one who built the last batch of Floppy Boards back in 2000. Bob really doesn't seem to have any interest at all in producing more product, even when money can be made from it. I tried to get him to let me build another batch of Floppy Boards, and despite the fact that I already had at least 85% of the parts needed (which probably comprised 95% of the COST of the FBs), he had no interest in it.

 

I guess he looks at all of this strictly in a business sense...not from the perspective of a Atari fan. Whatcha gonna do.

 

In any case, I know he sold the Multiplexer PCBs to somebody on here, and the FB parts (including the last 50 PCBs) were eventually also sold to an AtariAge user (not sure if he wants his name known) who had plans to build them up.

[Mathy]

Hello Ken

 

You should really give yourself more credit than that, after everything youve done.. I refer to stuff on your site pretty regularly.

What's on my site is mostly a collection of stuff other people developed and/or discovered. And I might know a thing or two about the BlackBox, but I don't know that much about the inner workings of the BlackBox. What I do know however, is that the BlackBox can be modified so that it will allow other PBI devices to use the PBI at the same time. That however does in no way mean that the BlackBox would become compliant to the PBI standard or anything that even lookes remotely like the/a PBI standard.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[MEtalGuy66]

Hello Ken

 

You should really give yourself more credit than that, after everything youve done.. I refer to stuff on your site pretty regularly.

What's on my site is mostly a collection of stuff other people developed and/or discovered. And I might know a thing or two about the BlackBox, but I don't know that much about the inner workings of the BlackBox. What I do know however, is that the BlackBox can be modified so that it will allow other PBI devices to use the PBI at the same time. That however does in no way mean that the BlackBox would become compliant to the PBI standard or anything that even lookes remotely like the/a PBI standard.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

 

I thought your 1meg XEGS upgrade was pretty good.

 

 

Heh. Well, in that respect, anything can be "modified" to allow anything..

 

It's not the PBI standard that I'd be worried about deviating from. Its the standard set forth by the blackbox, itself. The blackbox has a good sized user base. This is something that guarantees it's continued support. If you create compatability issues, differences in operation, or drastic changes to the design, what youve got is "another hack". The point is that the blackbox functionality goes beyond what is defined in "The PBI standard".

 

Stuff like the 64k printer buffer upgrade, the SCSI parity signal upgrade, improved serial/paralell port connectors, the flashable-firmware upgrade, etc. are all either completely transparent to the operational specs of the device, or already checked for and supported in the standard firmware. You change the system by which the thing initializes and takes control of the bus, and youve got a MAJOR functional change, even if the additional logic you used to do it was minimal. Now youve got 2 versions of the blackbox: The standard blackbox, and the new "PBI bus sharing capable" version of the blackbox.

 

Standards are important. As time goes on, the liklihood of any one "new device" selling thousands of units and becomming widely distributed in the atari user base becomes less and less. Standards that are already well supported and have a decent sized userbase should not be "messed with" in such a way as to create uncertainty on the part of anyone considering developing software which directly supports them. What you end up with is hundreds of different "hacks" and no real base of software that directly supports (or even coexists with) all of them. The good thing about devices such as the MIO and Blackbox is that there IS a sizeable software base that supports them, and the support requirements of these devices are already well known.

 

Its impressive to show someone "Hey.. Ive got this awesome piece of hardware that allows my machine to do wonderful things.. Heres a few custom coded apps that support it."... Its much more practical and satisfying in the long run to be able to show someone a whole range of software, written by many individuals over a long time span that constitutes a well-supported standard of functionality and compatability.

 

Im not saying that changes and enhancements shouldnt be made.. Im saying that they need to be 100% transparent to existing functional characteristics of the device.

[Mathy]

Hello Ken

 

I thought your 1meg XEGS upgrade was pretty good.

I hope to make it even more compatible to the 130XE by freezing the ROM status not just when either PB4 or PB5 or both go low, but only when that happens AND the memory range from $4000 to $7FFF is accessed.

 

Re: the BlackBox

 

All that would happen IIRC is that $D1xx is freed up when the BlackBox is not being accessed. But as I said, I don't know enough about this.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[MEtalGuy66]

I built MIOs for about 20 hours straight this weekend and got 3 assembled.

I still have to burn-in test them, fit cases, and package them for shipping..

 

These 3 will be going to:

Jay Snellen

Thomas Edmister

Adam Brannon

[+Philsan]

I built MIOs for about 20 hours straight this weekend and got 3 assembled.

I still have to burn-in test them, fit cases, and package them for shipping..

Respect!

[+Guitarman]

WooHoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Guitarman (Adam Brannon)

 

I built MIOs for about 20 hours straight this weekend and got 3 assembled.

I still have to burn-in test them, fit cases, and package them for shipping..

 

These 3 will be going to:

Jay Snellen

Thomas Edmister

Adam Brannon

[Bumzyman]

In any case, I know he sold the Multiplexer PCBs to somebody on here, and the FB parts (including the last 50 PCBs) were eventually also sold to an AtariAge user (not sure if he wants his name known) who had plans to build them up.

Not intending to hijack this thread but as an FYI to all:

I've tracked down almost all the parts required to assemble some new Floppy Boards. I just need to find a good 40pin DIP header and a good single row 20pin straight female header to make a more reliable connection to the Black Box that allows for standard stand-off's to be used. The original headers (as noted on Mathy's page) are a very close fit that barely make a connection when you zip tie the boards together. I've built one fully socketed test board but had to modify the pin headers on one of my BB's in order to space the boards far enough apart to account for the extra socket thickness. I'll be able to make about 25 brand new floppy boards to sell or trade when all is said and done. I'll post here in AA once I have them built and tested.

[+Larry]

In any case, I know he sold the Multiplexer PCBs to somebody on here, and the FB parts (including the last 50 PCBs) were eventually also sold to an AtariAge user (not sure if he wants his name known) who had plans to build them up.

Not intending to hijack this thread but as an FYI to all:

I've tracked down almost all the parts required to assemble some new Floppy Boards. I just need to find a good 40pin DIP header and a good single row 20pin straight female header to make a more reliable connection to the Black Box that allows for standard stand-off's to be used. The original headers (as noted on Mathy's page) are a very close fit that barely make a connection when you zip tie the boards together. I've built one fully socketed test board but had to modify the pin headers on one of my BB's in order to space the boards far enough apart to account for the extra socket thickness. I'll be able to make about 25 brand new floppy boards to sell or trade when all is said and done. I'll post here in AA once I have them built and tested.

 

Can you repair Black Boxes? Presume you would be able to repair FB's. (?) I was told by Bob Puff that they can't do repairs now.

 

I have two good ones now, but you never know... It sure would be good to know a good repair source.

 

-Larry

[MEtalGuy66]

The black box has a small enough chip count that it can be effectively diagnosed and repaired by swapping chips. A good visual inspection should be made of both sides of the board first, and if nothing is physically burned, swap the chips one at a time until it starts working. This is how Ive alwayse repaired mine in the past. Everything on the blackbox, itself is available from Jameco. The GALs used on the floppyboard however are another issue. You need to get the JEDEC code in order to program new ones in the event that these go bad. The only other issue is that most chips on the black box werent socketed. Anyone competant at desoldering DIP ICs can install sockets.. Once this is done, it's very easy to "repair" the black box.

[themrfreeze]

Be forewarned:

 

If you're going to do repairs on the Black Box that require desoldering chips, be very careful doing it. Some Black Boxes were built using PCBs produced by a company that didn't do the greatest job etching the traces. As such, the traces on those PCBs, including the solder pads, damage somewhat easily. Once the problem was found, Bob sourced his PCBs from a different company that did a great job making them.

 

And no, if there WAS a way to quickly determine which PCB you might have (like a revision number or a manufacturer's mark), I've long since forgotten it.

[MEtalGuy66]

Be forewarned:

 

If you're going to do repairs on the Black Box that require desoldering chips, be very careful doing it. Some Black Boxes were built using PCBs produced by a company that didn't do the greatest job etching the traces. As such, the traces on those PCBs, including the solder pads, damage somewhat easily. Once the problem was found, Bob sourced his PCBs from a different company that did a great job making them.

 

And no, if there WAS a way to quickly determine which PCB you might have (like a revision number or a manufacturer's mark), I've long since forgotten it.

 

Thats true.. It has to do with the process used to bond the copper to the board, the thickness of the copper, and how much heat it can stand without the copper delaminating from the board and/or becomming brittle and cracking. But Ive got a real early black box board.. And really, they arent any worse than some of the boards that atari used for various things.. You just gotta use a good temp controlled iron, and use some patience/perserverance in desoldering. With poor quality boards, you can also get hairline cracks forming right where traces connect to the solder pads, and to look at it, you wouldnt even know it. Which is why you should check your work with an ohm meter afterwards, and fix any continuity problems with small jumper wires on the back of the board, if need be. I can think of plenty of boards that are even worse than the black box. certain atari 1050 boards come to mind. entire traces completely lift off of the board over time, just due to normal operating heat on some of those.

Edited May 25, 2008 by MEtalGuy66

[dinosaur]

For someone that is totally cack-handed with a soldering iron,can you give me a source for a tutorial on good soldering techniques (and your recommendation for a good quality soldering iron)?

 

I am intereseted in de-soldering ICs,installing sockets,and doing some memory upgrades.

 

I have wanted to do this for a long time,but have little faith in my abilities. However,I am not getting any younger,and if I don't try,I will never do it!

 

Thanks,Ken

[MEtalGuy66]

For someone that is totally cack-handed with a soldering iron,can you give me a source for a tutorial on good soldering techniques (and your recommendation for a good quality soldering iron)?

 

I am intereseted in de-soldering ICs,installing sockets,and doing some memory upgrades.

 

I have wanted to do this for a long time,but have little faith in my abilities. However,I am not getting any younger,and if I don't try,I will never do it!

 

Thanks,Ken

 

If you suck at soldering, desoldering entire ICs on vintage hardware that you CARE about is not a good place to "learn".. Heres what I reccomend if you suck, but wanna do it anywayze, and dont mind spending some money..

 

First, for desoldering, get a hakko desoldering gun.

 

http://www.kiesub.com/prostores/servlet/Detail?no=8

 

This thing rocks.. and an 8 year old could use it quite effectively.

 

For assembly, you need a good temp controlled iron. The Weller WESD51 is awesome. Set it where you want it, and it will maintain that temp and not fry shit.. and has plenty of available wattage for thru-hole assembly, even on ground planes.

 

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/weller/s...CFQvOIgodbCIbCA

 

The main things to remember when soldering are patience and consistancy... Theres really no replacement for experience.. If there was, my wife would be building MIOs. Be patient, dont force anything, and dont crank the heat up higher than needed. If teh solder wont melt or stick where you want it, and you know your iron is hot, then try cleaning the tip of the iron and applying a drop of liquid flux to the solder joint you are working with. It's all about heat transfer.

 

Oh. and keep your fingers away from the metal parts of the iron.. 2nd degree burns happen in a fraction of a second, and are quite painful..

 

 

Ok.. ANd heres the number one thing I can tell you to get you started.. The number one major mistake I see inexperienced people make when attempting to solder: Do not try to melt the solder onto the object you are soldering... Heat the object you are soldering (or both objects if they are being soldered together) and then "feed" the solder into the joint. If the solder doesnt melt and flow over the joint you are soldering, then either the joint is not hot enough, or there is crud/impurities/oxidization on the surface. CLean the surface, clean the iron, use flux, and try again...

 

Get some decent equipment, and get some old crappy 486 motherboards (or other old thru-hole based boards) and practice desoldering, and resoldering.. Once you get the hang of it, youll get really good rather quickly.. Just concentrate and dont get in a hurry... When you feel like you can do good enough work to "satisfy yourself," fix your ATARI stuff...

 

Hope that helped.. Lets not turn this into a solder technique thread though...

 

 

 

Speaking of which... I just finished assembling 2 more MIOs....

[tgwave]

Some months ago I found an excellent web-site relating to circuit board repairs and modifications. Follow the link below:

 

http://www.circuitrework.com/guides/guides.shtml

 

Point your mouse pointer at the 'Guide Book' tab and select the index to one of the nine chapters. The information on these pages have been prepared by seasoned professionals.

[+Larry]

Some months ago I found an excellent web-site relating to circuit board repairs and modifications. Follow the link below:

 

http://www.circuitrework.com/guides/guides.shtml

 

Point your mouse pointer at the 'Guide Book' tab and select the index to one of the nine chapters. The information on these pages have been prepared by seasoned professionals.

 

Thanks, that's a nice site and great info! Now if someone could just give me the steady hands of a 30-year old!

-Larry

[+bf2k+]

...

 

The main things to remember when soldering are patience and consistancy... Theres really no replacement for experience.. If there was, my wife would be building MIOs.

 

...

 

 

BTW, very good explanation!

[+Guitarman]

Some months ago I found an excellent web-site relating to circuit board repairs and modifications. Follow the link below:

 

http://www.circuitrework.com/guides/guides.shtml

 

Point your mouse pointer at the 'Guide Book' tab and select the index to one of the nine chapters. The information on these pages have been prepared by seasoned professionals.

 

Thanks, that's a nice site and great info! Now if someone could just give me the steady hands of a 30-year old!

-Larry

 

Don't let age discourage!!! If I can do this at 46, you have it made!!! Scary s**t though!!!