JagCF last news before the before the launch of final proto.

[thomasholzer]

Oh and RW...if the JAguar community is so horrible, hwy do you stick around? Just to get off you snide remarks?

 

I purposely stay on the very periphery and I'm still utterly disgusted by most of what goes on. I'm a classic gamer collector with over 100 machines and thousands of games, and an Atari fan so that explains why I still care enough.

 

I see no other value to your posts other than to take pot shots at me ond other developers who wont give you

free games.

Yes, I'm a leech and a pirate. LOL

 

 

I am a big proponent of supporting devs big and small who make what I like to play. I've even purchased some things more than once, and even further than that have donated to people across the retro community who haven't even ever asked for money, just to thank them for their efforts. I'm not saying that everyone is like me, but everyone who wants a muticart/flashcart isn't a pirate. I've got eight such devices sitting right in my view right at this moment (yes even one for the Jag), and I still own thousands of games. Anyone who gives a shit enough to actually own these old systems and be an enthusiast is also likely going to BUY what they enjoy. And sure there will be people who won't buy a release, but those people probably weren't going to buy it if a flashcart existed or not.

 

While everyone isn't me, these things aren't mutually exclusive. Stop automatically labeling everyone who might want such a device a pirate, and stop calling the CF a 'pirate' device. It's inherently no more a pirate device than my DVD burner.

 

 

Your Breakout 2000 is upside down :-)

[thomasholzer]

When I read, "I've got this killer game, but you losers better pony up, or else!" kind of thing, it just sucks. There are leeches everywhere. They are not going away and they are not a factor. Why?

 

BECAUSE THEY ARE LEECHES. (And I personally don't care.)

 

 

LEECHES are good for you, they heal, so I respect LEECHES:

 

The leech has long been used in medicine, previously being used to remove poison from the human body, although today its use is mainly limited in limb reattachment procedures instead of the wide-ranging medical use in the past. Leeches have proven highly effective at preventing venous congestion after the surgical re-attachment of fingers, toes, ears and other parts of the body. The word leech either comes directly from or was influenced by the Old English word for "physician", lǣce, which is related to Old High German lāhhi and Old Irish liaig. The cognate form in Swedish is läkare, and this still translates as physician.

Edited October 8, 2007 by thomasholzer

[potatohead]

...they heal. Nice one!

 

Hey, to be totally fair, this isn't *the* issue about the Jag. Part of it just happens to be my low level of interest for it at the moment, and that's just me only wanting to focus on some things and not others. Before it gets too far, maybe I can say it this way:

 

I was that way about the VCS, for a long time too. One day, we turned on the VCS and had some fun with it. Seeing as how it was hooked up, why not see if anything new is happening, right?

 

What got me going again was watching all the really great efforts and seeing the pool of involved people get bigger, sharing stuff (not just free games, but experiences, etc...), and generally reinforcing one another. It's just an excellent scene. Right now, there are several games in progress, people can run them, in some cases tinker with them, talk about them and also in some cases help out in the creation, packaging, etc...

 

This stuff is catchy!

 

At some point, I will fire up the Jag again. Maybe to play some AvP, maybe after having found a cart, or whatever. If I'm checking in and see this, maybe it's a pass for a cycle or two. I can't imagine others not doing the same thing.

 

So, no judgement. I didn't mean that --not at all. Really it's just about the positives that can be there and what those might mean for gaming on the Jag as a whole, that's all.

[Gorf]

I would have consider buying a cart version of Gorf, I did not buy the CD version, because I have no CD. A Gorf CD for me would only have been a collectible item, and taking it from someone who would have been able to play it.

 

 

There are a ton of ways to avoid this but the best way is the way to assure not only the copying

if it does happen, happens at a very low number. We have decided not to release anymore

CD's for exactly this reason. We don't want to have anyone miss out. I believe MightyFrog

will be the last CD as it was designed that way and is done.

[Gorf]

I purposely stay on the very periphery and I'm still utterly disgusted by most of what goes on. I'm a classic gamer collector with over 100 machines and thousands of games, and an Atari fan so that explains why I still care enough.

 

Well, I think you like to take a things out of context and post them here to make it look like it was my idea.

Maybe that was not your intention, butyou certainly did not make it clear.

 

Im talking about that silly cease and desist. In a Homebrew community, the jugde would laugh it out of court

from the get go. That happened to be someone from EU that brought that up, BTW

 

Yes, I'm a leech and a pirate. LOL

 

I do not think you are either a leech or a pirate but it seems like you are almost condoning some of this nonsene.

 

I am a big proponent of supporting devs big and small who make what I like to play. I've even purchased some things more than once, and even further than that have donated to people across the retro community who haven't even ever asked for money, just to thank them for their efforts. I'm not saying that everyone is like me, but everyone who wants a muticart/flashcart isn't a pirate. I've got eight such devices sitting right in my view right at this moment (yes even one for the Jag), and I still own thousands of games.

 

I never said there should be no such thing as multicarts. I dont even care if anyone owns one.

If I needed all my games on one cart, I can make my own with what I own already. I have the

technology. I for one love plgging carts in and out to change the games. I know it kills the

machine over time but the time I actually get to play my many many machines is almost never.

Im too busy writting games, that I am pretty confident you will all like and I dont mean for the

Jaguar.

 

While everyone isn't me, these things aren't mutually exclusive. Stop automatically labeling everyone who might want such a device a pirate, and stop calling the CF a 'pirate' device. It's inherently no more a pirate device than my DVD burner.

 

I did not automatically label EVERYONE that wants this device and the device CAN be use to copy

software unauthorized. I have said many times this device would be a nice system for development

and running homebrews, niether od which need ram right smack in the cart port. A simple addres move

a few kilobytes upward would solve that issue for good. No roms could be ran. I understand fully

the ease of just loading ROMS you already own honestly, but not everyone is honest. I know folks

who want one and I have no trouble with that becasue I know they wont be using the device to steal

my work or someone elses work. This is not even about anyone elses work. If they have no problem with

the free distribution, who the hell am I to complain? This has never been the point. I WANT to see the

classic companies do something for us diehards, like sell at a ridiulously reasonable price or even give

away images somehow. I just want to make sure it's legit.

 

You will all play my games if you so wish, once I feel I am safe with them. If it is myself coming up with

a way to protect them or Jagware assures me to where I feel comfortable, I think this is reasonable.

I dont understand the BS im getting. Sure you have your ideas about what goes on and how things work

but so do I. Until I can feel safe otherwise, I am taking the road I plan to. I will also do my best to keep

the cost of you products as low as possible.

 

Keep in mind, when I first heard about the CF, I thought it woul be a great idea. Then I asked an honest

and simple question about the ability for it to potentially be a copy device. Instead I got ripped apart and

told that Gorf is nothing worth worrying about and everything else but what should have been a simple

answer. I only wanted to know if there were safe-gaurds and instead I got two years of condoning

copying and everything else. Just recently they said they would assure us but why did it take two years

to answer?

 

I know you dont hang much over at JSII but the history is there to see. Im not looking for trouble.

I 'm trying to prevent it. It's not my fault if everyone is blowing this wy out of proportion in such a way

that its being defensive out of guilt or something. Put yourself in my shoes for once and try to see how

that comes across to me. I knowyou think I may be blowing out of proportion, but again, it's all about

perspective, isn't it?

[Gorf]

You cant make a living in the jaguar community and Im certainly not looking to. But at the same

Time the effort is just to great to do it for nothing. Sorry.

Gorf - you're a very talented guy and the work you put into your stuff deserves more compensation then you will ever get. And any somewhat rational person knows you're not going to make anything resembling true compensation by developing in most classic markets, especially the Jag. You may not even break even on costs.

 

So if you're going to do it, you have to be doing it for the love of the system and the gratification of fans enjoying your work.

 

If you take the stance that most/all of your prospective audience are ungrateful pirates just waiting to rip you off and that the 'community' at large has to be held in check and forced into honesty by a lack of options - then hell, you might as well throw in the towel now.

 

 

I have not thrown in the towel. I do do it for the love of the system. I know I may NOT make my money back even if everyone is honest and I can live with that anyday as it was not because shit was being stolen by a handful of thieving

folks. I do not think that most of my customers are pirates by any means but it does not take too many theives to

make things even harder for me as it is. I never usually have disposable income. ...well I dipose it all to someone

else would be more accurate. I have to put this materials on my credit card and then pay it off as the sales come

in. I know you don't think so, but I cant wait to release this stuff. I just want it done so I dont get screwed.

 

I remember how you liked Surrounded!...money cant buy that feeling.....I wont mind losing if all I get is guys

like you buying my games. Stop thinking Im the bad guy.

[Gorf]

It's a turn off for sure.

 

I own a jag. Thought about adding some items to it, but there was always something different about it. I think this is part of why. Never could put my finger on it. This thread opened that up a bit for me.

 

Any of us enjoying these systems are doing it for the love of the art, nothing else. Why not get out there and get people involved? I see games released all the time, in many forms. At the end of the day, said games get played, people talk about them and their creators feel good about that.

 

I do not currently own any multi-device. For me, it's either emulation, or an actual physical purchase. Often it's just watching what happens and following developments. Looking back, it's just amazing the things that come from these classic machines. Damn cool stuff.

 

Can't see it, unless it's out there, can we?

 

If you want your props, you can get them you know. "Making back your investment" absolutely has to mean more than dollars. Making back your costs is defensible and doable.

 

Heck, post up a progress meter. "Only 5 more media distributions to sell before releasing something that works in a multi-cart." No biggie, make a contest of it. Pack in some goodies with a few of the carts. Number the things, sign some, whatever it takes to get people thinking about it on that level. There are lots of options that bring people in, create that fun spark, that don't alienate. Those are the ones that keep things moving. It's a small thing, but very important. There are not that many people really willing to spend on an old system. That's just reality.

 

When I read, "I've got this killer game, but you losers better pony up, or else!" kind of thing, it just sucks. There are leeches everywhere. They are not going away and they are not a factor. Why?

 

BECAUSE THEY ARE LEECHES. (And I personally don't care.)

 

The people that matter, that do buy stuff to support the hobby are the important ones. They need to feel welcome, part of something, or at the least appreciated. It's a great experience buying a home brew game, playing it, then sending a note off to the author! This is as sweet as it was playing each others games as kids. Feed your soul man, get your props, whatever it takes, but make damn sure those you are writing for feel good about the whole thing too, otherwise you may find yourself writing for yourself, and that's gonna suck more than some people playing your game on a multi-device.

 

Heck, if they are playing it, maybe they will talk about it! Doesn't that mean something?

 

Of course it does, but it would mean a lot more if mroe people were honest. If I lose money

because honestly is ruling the day, then let me go broke! However, why do I want to walk

in front of a bus when I can wait till it passes me?

[Gorf]

...they heal. Nice one!

 

Hey, to be totally fair, this isn't *the* issue about the Jag. Part of it just happens to be my low level of interest for it at the moment, and that's just me only wanting to focus on some things and not others. Before it gets too far, maybe I can say it this way:

 

I was that way about the VCS, for a long time too. One day, we turned on the VCS and had some fun with it. Seeing as how it was hooked up, why not see if anything new is happening, right?

 

What got me going again was watching all the really great efforts and seeing the pool of involved people get bigger, sharing stuff (not just free games, but experiences, etc...), and generally reinforcing one another. It's just an excellent scene. Right now, there are several games in progress, people can run them, in some cases tinker with them, talk about them and also in some cases help out in the creation, packaging, etc...

 

This stuff is catchy!

 

At some point, I will fire up the Jag again. Maybe to play some AvP, maybe after having found a cart, or whatever. If I'm checking in and see this, maybe it's a pass for a cycle or two. I can't imagine others not doing the same thing.

 

So, no judgement. I didn't mean that --not at all. Really it's just about the positives that can be there and what those might mean for gaming on the Jag as a whole, that's all.

 

 

No offense taken.

[phuzaxeman]

u don't care if nobody on here buys your game? i don't believe that.

 

...I dont trust you so it all the better you do'nt get my games. You argue on the

side of thieves and pruiates and therfore I put you in there catagorey as well and unfortunately a lot of you clowns

around here....I could not give a good damn who does or doesn't like it. Certainly not in a homebrew community where it

seems half the people are thieves anyway....

 

calling me a thief? i debate with you and you put me in that category (thieves)? great job gorf...another prime example of the world according to gorf. you don't know who i am nor have i talked about copying or pirating games. To call me a thief is complete b.s. and low class. not to mention your claim that "it seems half the people" on here are thieves.

 

you're just a frustrated jag developer that has nothing to sell because of your own hanging.

Edited October 8, 2007 by phuzaxeman

[potatohead]

Of course it does, but it would mean a lot more if mroe people were honest. If I lose money

because honestly is ruling the day, then let me go broke! However, why do I want to walk

in front of a bus when I can wait till it passes me?

 

The disconnect here is the perception of lost sales. In order for that to resonate, I think it needs to be demonstrated that sales are actually being lost!

 

I don't believe they are actually. Those willing and able to buy these niche products do, more often than not. Those that aren't just aren't.

 

Perhaps a few more would ultimately purchase, given no other option, but with so many alternatives out there, why bother?

 

And that's the crux of it really.

 

On the VCS, I see games released in many forms, carts being sold and people playing games. Nobody makes money on the thing, beyond that required to cover the actual physical media, packaging and shipping. There are roms one can download and play. More often than not, those same roms are published at various points during the cycle too, for testing, feedback, etc...

 

Again, it comes down to what "being honest" means doesn't it? Let's "be honest" and just come right out and say it. You think a majority of people would just go and play your game without compensating you.

 

Guess what? You are right! And you are not alone either. Welcome to the real world, where there are people, who do that because they can!

 

If that pisses you off, keep it close and work hard to max your sales. Make no mistake though. Most that would play, in this fashion, will because they can. If they cannot, then they will just play something else they can. And that's the dynamic right there, stated another way.

 

The implication that I might be missing out on the "next great Jag title by so and so" because I didn't pony up enough and regularly sucks ass dude. In fact, it sucks enough ass that I pretty much am not willing to support that at all. And that means I'm highly likely to miss out on that next great title huh?

 

What will happen with those dollars? Any number of things that do not come with baggage. Maybe a DVD, VCS title from the AA store, new console, maybe just go eat. And that's your potential sales right there.

[phuzaxeman]

Several of our games are ready. We just want to get our moeny back from them.

We sell games in a game package, not for download. It costs me money. I have

to reflect that cost on the customer when he buys these. I want to be sure I get

back what I put into, and quite frankly I have every right to do what I see fit to

protect. Mutlicarts may be your way of life, but they aren't ours. I dont own a

single such cart.

 

Right off the bat you made a mistake if you intended to run a sustainable business making games for the Jaguar. There aren't a lot of companies in this entire classic game scene pulling down enough cash to make somebody an honest living. I've got to imagine most are doing it on the side more for fun than anything else.

 

 

....Again, See Carl from Songbird. He sells games at almost twice what a normal cart costs. He claims it is to cover costs

yet everyone thinks he's a hero....

 

why you trying to cut songbird again? he's part of the reason why the jaguar community exists and how most of us jag and lynx owners appreciate new games. envy isn't a good thing gorf....it's quite apparent you have something against carl.

 

btw, alpine games cart is relatively the same price from the developer as it is from songbird....

[Gorf]

Several of our games are ready. We just want to get our moeny back from them.

We sell games in a game package, not for download. It costs me money. I have

to reflect that cost on the customer when he buys these. I want to be sure I get

back what I put into, and quite frankly I have every right to do what I see fit to

protect. Mutlicarts may be your way of life, but they aren't ours. I dont own a

single such cart.

 

Right off the bat you made a mistake if you intended to run a sustainable business making games for the Jaguar. There aren't a lot of companies in this entire classic game scene pulling down enough cash to make somebody an honest living. I've got to imagine most are doing it on the side more for fun than anything else.

 

 

....Again, See Carl from Songbird. He sells games at almost twice what a normal cart costs. He claims it is to cover costs

yet everyone thinks he's a hero....

 

why you trying to cut songbird again? he's part of the reason why the jaguar community exists and how most of us jag and lynx owners appreciate new games. envy isn't a good thing gorf....it's quite apparent you have something against carl.

 

btw, alpine games cart is relatively the same price from the developer as it is from songbird....

 

 

Again, I cant help it if you misinterpret(which im sure is on purpose to cause argument with me) what

I posted. I do not envy Carl at all. That's just silly. Carl does offer a great service but it comes at a

premium. All I am saying is he charges high prices (also fine, this is America) and no one complains

(except a few of us that is), and some like you even hail him as the saviour of the Jaguar community.

That is all fine.

 

But why are all of you same people bitching at me? Because I dare try to protect my interests which

will ultimately hopefully save you all money? But im a bad guy? You need to read the post and actually

comprehend what you are reading before you reply. I doubt very much you'd be giving Carl the same

shit. The trouble with fans is the 'what have you done for me lately' thing I understand. However, also

understand that Carl had mostly finished products. We have to do ours from scratch. God Bless Carl

and songbird and I wish him continued success. My interests are at stake too here. That does not mean

I can't disagree with his some of his practices. He carried Gorf and got the dealer deal I offer every dealer.

I do so to ensure you get the game at the suggested retail I set. Carl was fine with this and I made it worth

his while and any other dealer.

 

I very much plan to offer him and any dealer similar deals in the future. Your trouble is you cant seperate

disagreements with disrespect.

 

Carl is actually a really nice guy. He is cordial and well spoken and he is very good with customer

service as he should be. I have history with him over other issues in the underground, I'll agree but I

certainly dont hate, envy, or even dis-appreciate the guy. His prices are too high and he advertises in

the wrong forums( hence the underground forums issue.) Other than that, I would not mind meeting

him and even maybe buy him a drink. Do I have to worship at his throne to make you happy? Cant

I haev disagreements and still liek someone? Pssst....secret.....I do all the time. My best friends and

I always debate and argue and we are stronger friends than ever.

[Gorf]

The implication that I might be missing out on the "next great Jag title by so and so" because I didn't pony up enough and regularly sucks ass dude. In fact, it sucks enough ass that I pretty much am not willing to support that at all. And that means I'm highly likely to miss out on that next great title huh?

 

What will happen with those dollars? Any number of things that do not come with baggage. Maybe a DVD, VCS title from the AA store, new console, maybe just go eat. And that's your potential sales right there.

 

 

You wont be missing out....I will find a way. I DO care about the fans. Other wise I would not even bother at this point at all.

You'll probably find it reassuring that I have been looking at some very cheap and effective security chips that could very well

allow these releases sooner then later. We dont give up on our fans until we have no other choice. I've not given up on any one.

[Gorf]

u don't care if nobody on here buys your game? i don't believe that.

 

...I dont trust you so it all the better you do'nt get my games. You argue on the

side of thieves and pruiates and therfore I put you in there catagorey as well and unfortunately a lot of you clowns

around here....I could not give a good damn who does or doesn't like it. Certainly not in a homebrew community where it

seems half the people are thieves anyway....

 

calling me a thief? i debate with you and you put me in that category (thieves)? great job gorf...another prime example of the world according to gorf. you don't know who i am nor have i talked about copying or pirating games. To call me a thief is complete b.s. and low class. not to mention your claim that "it seems half the people" on here are thieves.

 

you're just a frustrated jag developer that has nothing to sell because of your own hanging.

 

Perhaps you should choose YOUR words better and you might give me reason to think otherwise.

However, as long as you seem to argue in favor of me working essentially for free to appease

those who need a job or calling me all sorts of names because I dare protect what is mine you can

expect I have little reason to trust you.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Gorf

[potatohead]

Sorry...

 

I just re-read this clusterfuck. No thanks. Back to VCS, Coleco, happy fun 8bit land. I'll pull the Jag out in another 5-10 years and see what happened.

[+LS650]

I'll pull the Jag out in another 5-10 years and see what happened.

I recommend you check out the Atari Lynx scene: great console, great games, and none of the spiked Kool-Aid nonsense of the Jaguar world.

[Gorf]

Sorry...

 

I just re-read this clusterfuck. No thanks. Back to VCS, Coleco, happy fun 8bit land. I'll pull the Jag out in another 5-10 years and see what happened.

 

 

Have fun.

[Gorf]

I'll pull the Jag out in another 5-10 years and see what happened.

I recommend you check out the Atari Lynx scene: great console, great games, and none of the spiked Kool-Aid nonsense of the Jaguar world.

 

 

What are you waiting for?

[+LS650]

What are you waiting for?

Eh? I'm not sure what you're referring to here... I've been collecting for the Lynx for years. Great scene - and none of the shenanigans and hysterics.

[Gorf]

What are you waiting for?

Eh? I'm not sure what you're referring to here... I've been collecting for the Lynx for years. Great scene - and none of the shenanigans and hysterics.

 

 

If you are so down on the AJguar and the community why do you keep cpming back?

Whatever dude. It's not stopping me from enjoying my Jaguar.

[phuzaxeman]

u don't care if nobody on here buys your game? i don't believe that.

 

...I dont trust you so it all the better you do'nt get my games. You argue on the

side of thieves and pruiates and therfore I put you in there catagorey as well and unfortunately a lot of you clowns

around here....I could not give a good damn who does or doesn't like it. Certainly not in a homebrew community where it

seems half the people are thieves anyway....

 

calling me a thief? i debate with you and you put me in that category (thieves)? great job gorf...another prime example of the world according to gorf. you don't know who i am nor have i talked about copying or pirating games. To call me a thief is complete b.s. and low class. not to mention your claim that "it seems half the people" on here are thieves.

 

you're just a frustrated jag developer that has nothing to sell because of your own hanging.

 

Perhaps you should choose YOUR words better and you might give me reason to think otherwise.

However, as long as you seem to argue in favor of me working essentially for free to appease

those who need a job or calling me all sorts of names because I dare protect what is mine you can

expect I have little reason to trust you.

 

perhaps you need to earn respect among your future customers or lack thereof.

 

a thief steals stuff like your unreleased games or pirates stuff without consent. i've got more than a handful of homebrews which have been paid through an honest living. get your terms straight.

 

protect what is yours. that's your right. good for you.

 

when it's all said and done, you've caused more negative impact to this community than positive. its a shame, someone with talent, is ruled by his emotions and actually has harmed his own future sales with an arrogant attitude. i'm not the only one that has been turned off from the jag on here.

 

keep up the great work. hope one day i'll get a paid version of gorf....maybe then they'll be 5 people in the world playing a jag....

[Gorf]

keep up the great work. hope one day i'll get a paid version of gorf....maybe then they'll be 5 people in the world playing a jag....

 

Maybe the that is the perception of me on this forum but it is certianly not elsewhere.

And if you dont want to be lumped in, dont defend the indefensible.

[phuzaxeman]

I'll pull the Jag out in another 5-10 years and see what happened.

I recommend you check out the Atari Lynx scene: great console, great games, and none of the spiked Kool-Aid nonsense of the Jaguar world.

 

that scene would be too calm for gorf...although im sure he can cause havoc in the lynx forums if he wanted to.... ;-p

[phuzaxeman]

keep up the great work. hope one day i'll get a paid version of gorf....maybe then they'll be 5 people in the world playing a jag....

 

Maybe the that is the perception of me on this forum but it is certianly not elsewhere.

And if you dont want to be lumped in, dont defend the indefensible.

heed your own words....

[phuzaxeman]

keep up the great work. hope one day i'll get a paid version of gorf....maybe then they'll be 5 people in the world playing a jag....

 

...Maybe the that is the perception of me on this forum but it is certianly not elsewhere....

 

yes...maybe it is that perception.