HELP! Information on Red Sea Crossing?

[potatohead]

I think it's real. In fact, there has been very little discussed here on this thread to believe otherwise.

 

Been reading this with interest and Nathan has it spot on. BTW: Dumping is not really theft, it's infringement. It's still that programmers call, and so far he's not made the call. That leaves us with the legal options, if everybody wants to do the right thing.

 

If it were me, I would not open that cart. I don't think it's required to demonstrate it being authentic, and should something go wrong, it would be a real bummer all around. I suggest if somebody really wants to open it, they buy it.

 

The right of first sale means that cart can be sold. It also means it can be backed up by the current owner. It can also be backed up by a future owner, etc...

 

We don't have permission for a complete code dump, so that leaves us with the fair use options:

 

-segments of the code, published for discussion, or with discussion is ok

 

-movies of the game play are ok

 

-scans of the cart is ok

 

-a backup is ok and can be done without opening the cart.

 

If it were me, I would just leave that guy alone. If I were interested in selling the cart, I would also do that right now. Enough information has been gathered for people to make an informed decision. Once sold, what happens, happens. No worries.

 

Put a reserve on the thing --a substantial one. That way, only serious collectors need apply. And those same collectors, interested in future collecting, can consider their actions as the owner of that cart accordingly. That's where this cart is headed, so just let the dollars do their work.

 

There is going to be some amount of risk in that purchase. If you think about it, there is always some risk in these kinds of purchases. Either it's worth it or not, simple as that.

 

Should that auction fail, then it's not worth it and more information is needed. If that auction succeeds, then it's settled, and the new owner can consider their options.

 

nagn2, sell. Having talked to the guy, your options are now limited. From here out, you trade potential value and take risk while everyone else just benefits. Unless you have some real interest in learning the whole story, let others pay to do that, take the risk themselves and keep you out of it. Just my $.02 This also keeps you out of the loop where questionable things are concerned. Leverage the high ground while you have it --or soon you won't!

 

It's a great find. Keep it and learn, or unload it and watch somebody else learn, or not.

[+Psionic]

I recommend letting someone knowledgeable open the cart (like CPUWIZ if he agrees).

LOL

 

Half of you guys are crying hoax and you want to send it to CPUWIZ (the only person on this planet who would be capable of engineering a hoax like this) for verification.

[Dragnerok X]

Half of you guys are crying hoax and you want to send it to CPUWIZ (the only person on this planet who would be capable of engineering a hoax like this) for verification.

 

I concur. For that matter, opening cartridges is a relatively easy thing to do. I've done it hundreds of times, with various varieties and have yet to break a thing. I don't really see a reason everyone is so worried about nagn2 opening the cart. A video was posted explaining how do it, and with the community's answers behind him, sending it to CPUWIZ just to open it sounds rediculous. Just as long you are careful, nagn2, you should be fine.

 

(i.e. Calm down people! )

[potatohead]

Half of you guys are crying hoax and you want to send it to CPUWIZ (the only person on this planet who would be capable of engineering a hoax like this) for verification.

 

I concur. For that matter, opening cartridges is a relatively easy thing to do. I've done it hundreds of times, with various varieties and have yet to break a thing. I don't really see a reason everyone is so worried about nagn2 opening the cart. A video was posted explaining how do it, and with the community's answers behind him, sending it to CPUWIZ just to open it sounds rediculous. Just as long you are careful, nagn2, you should be fine.

 

(i.e. Calm down people! )

 

And if it breaks, label tears, etc?

 

At this point, the burden is on the nay sayers to bring something solid to the table that supports a hoax. Run the auction, with a substantial reserve. If that auction fails, then open the cart. IMHO, there is plenty here to authenticate it. No reason to go any farther, if one plans on selling.

[Dragnerok X]

And if it breaks, label tears, etc?

 

At this point, the burden is on the nay sayers to bring something solid to the table that supports a hoax. Run the auction, with a substantial reserve. If that auction fails, then open the cart. IMHO, there is plenty here to authenticate it. No reason to go any farther, if one plans on selling.

 

I can support that conclusion. I realize that things like that don't come around every day. However, if are to open the cartridge, nagn2, I would suggest you practice on a few of your other cartridges first. Even if it's just a simple Combat cart, you can still get the feel for how it's done.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Dragnerok X

[RangerG]

CPUWIZ could do a lot more than just open the cart. He is one of the best ones on AA to verify the entire cart and contents. I'm just saying that I would hate for him to mess up the cart and that circular tab is not very strong on the inside of Telesys carts. I think the suggestions to sell and let the new owner deal with it are good.

[gospeedde]

I am gonna break my silence here for a second, I can stand this amateur crap.

 

This cart looks like a Wizard shell, which does not have screws in it, it's held together by plastic prongs. Wizard, and probably this cart, used Apollo boards. Many Halloween carts have the same printing error as this cart as well.

 

The board inside, will look like this... (can also be green)

 

* back to silence *

I thought I cast a spell on you to keep quite? How dare you break the silence!

 

Wizard - Apollo - Panda shells are all one and the same. I've uploaded the video, but this processing might be a while (It's been 15 mins already and the video is small). I really don't like Youtube and some rat bastard stole my log in name so I have to be Omegamatrix1 on there. Bastard. Anyhow I will post it when it goes through eventually.

 

Incorrect, Wizard - Panda and Telesys. All Apollo carts I have opened, have 2 screws in them.

 

So, are the Sega Standard Cases the same as the Telesys carts, the Apollo carts, or different from both? I'm curious.

[A.J. Franzman]

I would suggest you practice on a few of your other cartridges first. Even if it's just a simple Combat cart, you can still get the feel for how it's done.

Combat will be useless -- Wizard/Panda/Telesys style shells are different than all others, including Atari's. I have over 200 different cartridges but only two Telesys games (and no Panda or Wizard games); a Coco Nuts in the "handle" case (which is also different than the standard Telesys case) and a Cosmic Creeps in the standard case. I have never opened this case style before but after watching the video I got the Cosmic Creeps case open in about a minute, far enough to remove the circuit board and examine it, without removing or damaging either of the labels. Putting the board back in the right place and getting the case closed up again was a bit trickier but not too hard.

[+Psionic]

So, are the Sega Standard Cases the same as the Telesys carts, the Apollo carts, or different from both? I'm curious.

None of them are exactly identical. The Sega carts don't seem to want to pop open, so I'm guessing they have screws like the Apollo carts.

 

I have never opened this case style before but after watching the video I got the Cosmic Creeps case open in about a minute, far enough to remove the circuit board and examine it, without removing or damaging either of the labels. Putting the board back in the right place and getting the case closed up again was a bit trickier but not too hard.

I agree...I just did the same with a Wizard cart.

Edited September 24, 2007 by PingvinBlueJeans

[Dino]

At this point, the burden is on the nay sayers to bring something solid to the table that supports a hoax. Run the auction, with a substantial reserve. If that auction fails, then open the cart. IMHO, there is plenty here to authenticate it. No reason to go any farther, if one plans on selling.

 

I hate to break it to you but without verification the big players wouldn't have a bar of this cart so it would be passed in for near peanuts. Its never up to the nay sayers to prove anything. If you have anything of value, the burden is on you to prove the legitimacy of your cart.

 

Oh, and by the way, for the others, CPUWIZ would never risk his reputation being involved in a bullshit scheme like this.

 

Nagn, currently, you don't have the support of any of the big players here at the moment. Thats not to say your cart's not legit, but the longer you leave it the more your returns will nosedive, so just open the cart and post the pics of both sides of the board.

[Dino]

Personally, I can't see why anyone would spend hours making a fake cart and putting together a story to go along with it all in the hopes of making $. There are easier ways to make money.

 

Neither can I, but the truth is they do.

[+Nathan Strum]

Can you give me some names of some common games that are like this so I can see if I can do this without destroying anything? One big question for me. If I do get this opened and take pictures will that be definitive proof, or will it still leave doubt? I don't want to even consider opening it if it will still leave doubt!

The problem is - no picture can ever be considered "proof" of anything anymore. Photoshop has pretty much taken care of that. Some stuff is just harder to fake than others. Ultimately, people have to take you at your word, or not. No amount of proof will convince skeptics otherwise. Once opened, who's to say that the board you took pictures of is actually the one from inside that cart? See the problem?

 

Personally, I wouldn't open the cart to prove anything to anyone. If there's any doubt in your mind that you can open it without damaging it, I'd leave it alone. Get it dumped, first. Then go from there.

[potatohead]

I find this whole discussion very interesting. I've no vested interest in any of it either. I like Atari stuff for pure nostalgic reasons.

 

So let's turn it all around huh?

 

Whose to say the big fish are not just trying to leverage their position to keep the value low, or all are hoping there is more than one of these to prevent somebody from having a prize that sets them apart from the others? I have to wonder about that aspect of things. Not saying anybody is bad or anything. That's not it at all. I am saying, asking questions and posing doubt has that impact on this whole affair and must be considered overall, with said consideration being a part of the whole risk / value equation.

 

From where I stand, I see an impasse, so let the dollars do their work. The result of the auction will tell us, and in particular, nagl2 what to do next.

 

Let's say the auction runs and a solid reserve is met. The new owner takes their risk and opens the thing, and finds out it's special somehow. Does the value not go up, thus bringing a return on that investment? In the end, somebody gets a nice deal right? Win-win on all sides.

 

If it runs and this thing is a hoax, somebody is gonna end up being a dog. Cooked here, and elsewhere. It's not like it's a huge club, so that carries some weight. A solid reason for keeping the reserve low enough for people to speculate on. I'm sure the bigger collectors have some dollars they can speculate with. let 'em speculate then, on their own dime.

 

If the auction fails, there is enough doubt, or too much risk to make a purchase worth it. In that scenario, then it makes sense to do some digging, knowing the effort is really worthwhile. Then opening the cart makes perfect sense. In this scenario, it will need to happen. Right now, it is not known if that really needs to happen.

 

Maybe what I just posted is in play! So the auction runs well and the cart is purchased at a premium. Not only was the risk worth it, but worth quite a lot. Maybe the lucky winner just adds a one of a kind to their collection and leaves it at that. This is the part nobody knows.

 

An auction now won't command top dollar, and it shouldn't. It does however, clarify just how much risk nagl2 has to take, doesn't it?

 

Maybe that guy has 50 of these in a box somewhere and he will unload them next year. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's got 5 or 500. Next week some church group unloads their junk into a bargain bin and another one of these is found. Of course this stuff happens, has happened, and will happen again.

 

No combination of photos, code, etc... presented here will change that. That risk is always there. IMHO, that's not really a significant part of the discussion at hand. The major element is fraud, and frankly, I just don't see that here. A contrived scheme would not play out like this, without a lot of effort --too much effort, IMHO.

 

If it were me, and I had the cart, I would run an auction with a well calculated reserve. Enough to make it worth my while, but also not so much that potential buyers feel locked in. No matter what, this is the first and maybe only one of these particular carts. Found in the wild, historical on that basis alone. That's worth something, but is not the primary focus. I would want some value for the thing, but not so much that the buyer would not also see some value for their efforts as well. It's fair.

 

What is worth quite a bit more is the chance to call the shots, make the discoveries, tell the story, maybe be the owner of a one of a kind. By insisting on such a high and risky vetting standard, it's my opinion nagl2 is being taken advantage of, unless he is more interested in doing these things than in selling the cart. He is essentially having to take a significant risk with no return. Whose to say opening that cart won't just bring another ton of questions forward, for the reasons I put in the beginning of this post? Again, not dissing anybody, just trying to be rational.

 

I say let the dollars do their work. We will find out just who thinks what.

 

So what's an appropriate reserve?

 

From what we've seen here, it's somewhat likely this cart is a one of a kind, somewhat more likely to be in the extremely rare category, not very likely to fall below that, unless this programmer has a ton of them somewhere stashed away. There is the chance the guy might never ever bother, lost his stash, etc... There is also the chance others may be found, now that one has been found. That could take a while... It might also be the last one!

 

So balance it. Put the reserve somewhere solid into extremely rare category and run the auction. Let the dollars do the work.

Edited September 24, 2007 by potatohead

[thomasholzer]

I agree with potatohead, don't mess with it. Don't try to open it and risk damage to label or cart. Don't listen to these so-called experts on the board. You know what you got, an excellent find, and the knowledge of it being absolutely rare is a bonus.

Edited September 24, 2007 by thomasholzer

[Rom Hunter]

You know what you got, an excellent find, and the knowledge of it being absolutely rare is a bonus.

That's not the point here.

 

Nagn2 already knows what he's got.

 

The buyer needs to know what he's going to get if Nagn2 is going to sell this cart as an original.

 

Do you really think that a serious collector is going to spend more than $25 for this if he isn't 100% convinced that it's genuine?

 

Edited September 24, 2007 by Rom Hunter

[Thomas Jentzsch]

The buyer needs to know what he's going to get if Nagn2 is going to sell this cart as an original.

No, he doesn't. AFAIK some collectors are paying a lot of money even without being 100% sure. And if this is not a hoax and the only existing original, the cart would be a bargain even when paying a few $100.

 

And maybe even a perfect "original" hoax cart it worth some money for some collectors.

 

Do you really think that a serious collector is going to spend more than $25 for this if he isn't 100% convinced that it's genuine?

Yes, I am convinced this will happen.

 

The problem is, the whole thread is evolving now about collectors getting nervous. I am sure, many would like to have that card, but many also are afraid of taking the risk. Others will just take the risk.

 

It's solely Nagn2's choice to decide if he sells it with or without 100% confirmation.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Thomas Jentzsch]

People have mentioned reading the code. How is that done?

You take the dumped ROM, disassemble the code and analyze it.

 

Without going into details here, there are many ways to determine if the code was written in the 80ies or today. Some (mainly code patterns) are well known between programmers and quite easy to fake, but I know about some good indicators which have never been discussed in public.

[Rom Hunter]

The buyer needs to know what he's going to get if Nagn2 is going to sell this cart as an original.

No, he doesn't. AFAIK some collectors are paying a lot of money even without being 100% sure. And if this is not a hoax and the only existing original, the cart would be a bargain even when paying a few $100.

 

And maybe even a perfect "original" hoax cart it worth some money for some collectors.

 

Do you really think that a serious collector is going to spend more than $25 for this if he isn't 100% convinced that it's genuine?

Yes, I am convinced this will happen.

 

The problem is, the whole thread is evolving now about collectors getting nervous. I am sure, many would like to have that card, but many also are afraid of taking the risk. Others will just take the risk.

 

It's solely Nagn2's choice to decide if he sells it with or without 100% confirmation.

Perhaps you're right, Thomas.

 

Well, good luck to both Nagn2 and the buyer.

 

And whatever you decide to do: please take good care of that cart.

 

I'm still a believer in its origins.

 

Edited September 24, 2007 by Rom Hunter

[Nukey Shay]

Same here. Some are mentioning how "convenient" it is that things moved along so quickly, but you have to admit there'd be a couple wild coincidences if it weren't.

[Rick Weis]

Thomas is right, i would bid $150 but no more.

 

i agree, put it up for auction! lets see how high (or low) it goes...

 

so how many hardcore collectors out there willing to bid 1K on this? huh..anyone??

 

for those who think i'm down talking this to get it cheap, you don't know me that well!

 

Rick

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Some are mentioning how "convenient" it is that things moved along so quickly, ...

I can assure you, that my part in finding the programmer was no fake.

[+Psionic]

so how many hardcore collectors out there willing to bid 1K on this? huh..anyone??

Rick...I'd gladly pay that for this cart right now if not for the fact that I'm already currently spending $1,000 on some other games from a fellow AtariAger.

I'd easily spend that much because I know I could flip it to one of you guys for at least double that.

 

Besides, from what the programmer told me, it sounded like he may have some more somewhere. If more appear, that will certainly affect the price, but that has yet to be seen.

 

For me this issue is very simple...at this point, if nagn2 wants to open the cart to appease the cynics here, he can certainly do that. But this is the real deal. The real question here is not whether this cartridge is legitimate. The question is how many unsold cartridges (if any) does Steve Schustack have in storage somewhere, and is he or his he not willing to go digging around (in his attic, at a storage shed in Florida, in his parent's basement back in California or any number of other places he could have stuff stored) for more cartridges. Time will tell.

[Rom Hunter]

Thomas is right, i would bid $150 but no more.

There you go.

 

[Bruce Tomlin]

Okay, my two cents now:

 

1) What happened to "let Albert sort this out and everybody else leave him alone"? You know who you are. By mentioning "dumping" again, you've re-inforced his misconceptions. It was even mentioned in this thread that we needed someone experienced in the protos scene to explain "dumping", and the concept of "only copy known to exist" to him PROPERLY so as not to freak him out, and have exactly this bullshit happen.

 

Maybe a status report to keep the rabble happy would have been a good idea, but we were all told DON'T TALK TO HIM, for a very good reason, and someone just haaaaaad to do it.

 

2) Dumping is not only not stealing, it isn't even infringement. DISTRIBUTION of the dump is. Dumping to preserve the contents as an archival backup is very much fair use, and Steve whatisname has no right to stop it. Really.

[RangerG]

I agree with Bruce. There were many sitting back in the hopes that someone like Albert would approach the situation with expertise (not talking about dumping and how carts go for a thousand bucks). I think this took an unfortunate turn, but I still hope a buyer with a commitment to the community will ultimately purchase it.