Flashcart and Multicart List - All systems

[NinjaWarrior]

Why is the load time for ROM's like 20 seconds for big games like Super SF2 on the Genesis

 

On Fusion on the PC loading ROM's are quick, even on the 2GB Pen Drive is fast

[StoneAgeGamer]

Why is the load time for ROM's like 20 seconds for big games like Super SF2 on the Genesis

 

On Fusion on the PC loading ROM's are quick, even on the 2GB Pen Drive is fast

 

There are two reason loading ROMs takes longer on EverDrives. The main reason is because the flash process is controlled by the host system's CPU. As we know these CPUs are very slow. You can't compare a modern PC CPU to a Genesis/SNES CPU. The second (minor reason) is because it uses Flash, which is not as fast as SDRAM. The advantage it has over SDRAM is that it retains the game in memory even after turning the system is off. Yes EverDrives could be made to load ROMs quicker, but it would also raise costs considerably.

 

To me this is a non-issue in most cases. Unless you play a new game every 2 minutes I am not sure why waiting an extra few seconds is really a problem. Also once a game is loaded it doesn't have to be reloaded if power is cycled.

 

That being said, the ED64 uses SDRAM and will load games much quicker than past EverDrives. SPI mode should load games at 3 to 6MB/sec. If Igor and I decide to file for an SD association license ($2000/yr.) we could then legally use SD mode which would be about 20MB/sec. Obviously this would raise price of ED64 slightly, $5 - $10/ea. Its something we are considering, but at this point in time it will probably be last thing done. Launch ED64 may not have this mode enabled, but if we get license it will then be enabled through an OS update.

 

SD cards being slow is pretty much a myth. Some of the competitors try to point out using SD cards is a handicap. However the SD has really nothing to do with the load speed in this case.

[the.golden.ax]

Why is the load time for ROM's like 20 seconds for big games like Super SF2 on the Genesis

 

On Fusion on the PC loading ROM's are quick, even on the 2GB Pen Drive is fast

 

There are two reason loading ROMs takes longer on EverDrives. The main reason is because the flash process is controlled by the host system's CPU. As we know these CPUs are very slow. You can't compare a modern PC CPU to a Genesis/SNES CPU. The second (minor reason) is because it uses Flash, which is not as fast as SDRAM. The advantage it has over SDRAM is that it retains the game in memory even after turning the system is off. Yes EverDrives could be made to load ROMs quicker, but it would also raise costs considerably.

 

To me this is a non-issue in most cases. Unless you play a new game every 2 minutes I am not sure why waiting an extra few seconds is really a problem. Also once a game is loaded it doesn't have to be reloaded if power is cycled.

 

That being said, the ED64 uses SDRAM and will load games much quicker than past EverDrives. SPI mode should load games at 3 to 6MB/sec. If Igor and I decide to file for an SD association license ($2000/yr.) we could then legally use SD mode which would be about 20MB/sec. Obviously this would raise price of ED64 slightly, $5 - $10/ea. Its something we are considering, but at this point in time it will probably be last thing done. Launch ED64 may not have this mode enabled, but if we get license it will then be enabled through an OS update.

 

SD cards being slow is pretty much a myth. Some of the competitors try to point out using SD cards is a handicap. However the SD has really nothing to do with the load speed in this case.

 

 

Maybe even a special OS you buy. I'd pay $10 extra to increase the speed.

 

AX

[StoneAgeGamer]

Why is the load time for ROM's like 20 seconds for big games like Super SF2 on the Genesis

 

On Fusion on the PC loading ROM's are quick, even on the 2GB Pen Drive is fast

 

There are two reason loading ROMs takes longer on EverDrives. The main reason is because the flash process is controlled by the host system's CPU. As we know these CPUs are very slow. You can't compare a modern PC CPU to a Genesis/SNES CPU. The second (minor reason) is because it uses Flash, which is not as fast as SDRAM. The advantage it has over SDRAM is that it retains the game in memory even after turning the system is off. Yes EverDrives could be made to load ROMs quicker, but it would also raise costs considerably.

 

To me this is a non-issue in most cases. Unless you play a new game every 2 minutes I am not sure why waiting an extra few seconds is really a problem. Also once a game is loaded it doesn't have to be reloaded if power is cycled.

 

That being said, the ED64 uses SDRAM and will load games much quicker than past EverDrives. SPI mode should load games at 3 to 6MB/sec. If Igor and I decide to file for an SD association license ($2000/yr.) we could then legally use SD mode which would be about 20MB/sec. Obviously this would raise price of ED64 slightly, $5 - $10/ea. Its something we are considering, but at this point in time it will probably be last thing done. Launch ED64 may not have this mode enabled, but if we get license it will then be enabled through an OS update.

 

SD cards being slow is pretty much a myth. Some of the competitors try to point out using SD cards is a handicap. However the SD has really nothing to do with the load speed in this case.

 

 

Maybe even a special OS you buy. I'd pay $10 extra to increase the speed.

 

AX

 

Yeah that may be an option. There seem to be a lot of people over on AssemblerGames freaking out a bit about the possibility of the small extra cost. To me though you have to leverage a few things. How many customers will you lose by upping price slightly compared to how many you may win over the competition with the faster speed.

 

Either way the EverDrive64 will be considerably cheaper than the current competition. Igor should have some video soon of the ED64 running a game for the first time.

[the.golden.ax]

ED64... cures your N64's erectile dysfunction.

 

AX

[Greg2600]

Oh good grief, that Assembler Games Everdrive forum is quite eccentric. Some of the systems they want flash carts for, wow! And they fight with me when I say Krikzz would never make money on them. If its $5-$10 more for the true SD, it's probably worth it. I personally won't be buying anybody's N64 cart until I see several reviews and hear the horror stories and successes. That's the one drawback to Krikzz's stuff is the need for JTAG. I'd rather wait until he gets pretty well done with firmware updates.

 

As for the older systems, yeah loading from SD to those CPU's is slow. PowerPak's creator gives his choice of CF over SD due to CF's parallel interface being 10 times faster than SD's serial.

[StoneAgeGamer]

Oh good grief, that Assembler Games Everdrive forum is quite eccentric. Some of the systems they want flash carts for, wow! And they fight with me when I say Krikzz would never make money on them. If its $5-$10 more for the true SD, it's probably worth it. I personally won't be buying anybody's N64 cart until I see several reviews and hear the horror stories and successes. That's the one drawback to Krikzz's stuff is the need for JTAG. I'd rather wait until he gets pretty well done with firmware updates.

 

As for the older systems, yeah loading from SD to those CPU's is slow. PowerPak's creator gives his choice of CF over SD due to CF's parallel interface being 10 times faster than SD's serial.

 

Yes some of them are. I think some over there are of the mindset that Igor and others should basically do this for fun and not make profit.

 

As for the JTAG, I do agree with you on that. I would rather the customer be able to update firmware themselves without special equipment. My guess is that its a cost thing. Maybe because the EverDrives (pre ED64) didn't have a FPGA. He did mention something the other day though that the ED64 would probably be able to update the firmware without JTAG. So that sounds good. I think having better hardware on the ED64 is really allowing him to do a lot more than was possible with the original EverDrives.

[+remowilliams]

As far as people and their stupid price expectations, to quote the 64drive site...

 

 

I wouldn't pay more than $40 for this.

 

You probably wouldn't buy it anyway.

[StoneAgeGamer]

As far as people and their stupid price expectations, to quote the 64drive site...

 

 

I wouldn't pay more than $40 for this.

 

You probably wouldn't buy it anyway.

 

Yeah I like marshall's FAQs.

[psquare75]

I will be purchasing an ED64. Krizz does fantastic work.

 

I haven't frequented the assembler forum, so my question may be answered. Has there been a original ED update for saving games to make it on par with the Super ED?

[StoneAgeGamer]

I will be purchasing an ED64. Krizz does fantastic work.

 

I haven't frequented the assembler forum, so my question may be answered. Has there been a original ED update for saving games to make it on par with the Super ED?

 

Yes this was added a few OS updates back.

[StoneAgeGamer]

[StoneAgeGamer]

Good news, angelwolf71885 over on AssemblerGames forums found that the SD association does offer the use of DS mode (12Mbytes/sec.) and HS mode (25Mbytes/sec.) for free. Sounds like the ED64 will support these modes. So it sounds like the majority of games will be possible to load within 0.3 to 1.5 seconds.

[Chilly Willy]

Good news, angelwolf71885 over on AssemblerGames forums found that the SD association does offer the use of DS mode (12Mbytes/sec.) and HS mode (25Mbytes/sec.) for free. Sounds like the ED64 will support these modes. So it sounds like the majority of games will be possible to load within 0.3 to 1.5 seconds.

 

Well, it will if the control chip is programmed to transfer the data straight from the SD card to the ram itself. You couldn't use the N64 CPU (or DMA) to handle the transfer and expect any real speed. Why? Because the cart port is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Nintendo made the cart port slow to take advantage of slow (cheap) roms. You can change the timing on the cart port to an extent, but it will still be pretty slow using the CPU. To get those high speeds SD supports, the control chip needs to handle the data transfers independent of the cart port.

[StoneAgeGamer]

Good news, angelwolf71885 over on AssemblerGames forums found that the SD association does offer the use of DS mode (12Mbytes/sec.) and HS mode (25Mbytes/sec.) for free. Sounds like the ED64 will support these modes. So it sounds like the majority of games will be possible to load within 0.3 to 1.5 seconds.

 

Well, it will if the control chip is programmed to transfer the data straight from the SD card to the ram itself. You couldn't use the N64 CPU (or DMA) to handle the transfer and expect any real speed. Why? Because the cart port is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Nintendo made the cart port slow to take advantage of slow (cheap) roms. You can change the timing on the cart port to an extent, but it will still be pretty slow using the CPU. To get those high speeds SD supports, the control chip needs to handle the data transfers independent of the cart port.

 

Yeah I don't know the specifics on how (if?) he is doing it. I'll ask him next time I see him on because now I am curious.

[KRIKzz]

Good news, angelwolf71885 over on AssemblerGames forums found that the SD association does offer the use of DS mode (12Mbytes/sec.) and HS mode (25Mbytes/sec.) for free. Sounds like the ED64 will support these modes. So it sounds like the majority of games will be possible to load within 0.3 to 1.5 seconds.

 

Well, it will if the control chip is programmed to transfer the data straight from the SD card to the ram itself. You couldn't use the N64 CPU (or DMA) to handle the transfer and expect any real speed. Why? Because the cart port is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Nintendo made the cart port slow to take advantage of slow (cheap) roms. You can change the timing on the cart port to an extent, but it will still be pretty slow using the CPU. To get those high speeds SD supports, the control chip needs to handle the data transfers independent of the cart port.

 

everdrive64 has own dma controller for direct transfer between SD/USB and dram, so i not use n64 bus for transfer and not limited by cart port perfomance.

Chilly Willy by the way, do you know why n64 cart port access works so strange: if i want write few bytes to cart area without dma, then i should to read something before write, otherwise writen data will not be correctly received by cart?

Edited April 23, 2011 by KRIKzz

[Chilly Willy]

everdrive64 has own dma controller for direct transfer between SD/USB and dram, so i not use n64 bus for transfer and not limited by cart port perfomance.

 

Great! That means super-fast loads... actually, it should load faster off SD than the N64 can DMA the data to RDRAM.

 

Chilly Willy by the way, do you know why n64 cart port access works so strange: if i want write few bytes to cart area without dma, then i should to read something before write, otherwise writen data will not be correctly received by cart?

 

Possibly because the port is multiplexed around words. It's geared towards reading blocks via DMA, and any less than that seems to require "filler" cycles or a REALLY BIG DAMN LONG delay. The N64 NeoMyth has this trouble. It makes it "fun" for reading the SD card since the Neo2-SD or Neo2-Pro carts use a GPIO interface to the SD card, meaning the CPU has to do multiple reads to read the SD data... eight reads per long. I alter the bus timing in the bus controller to improve the speed, but it still tops off at about 650 KBytes/sec.

 

Did you every look at this page?

http://www.crazynation.org/N64/n64_cart_info.htm

 

The bus timing diagrams are really great.

[KRIKzz]

yes, i saw this page. looks like this is the only page which shows how n64 cart works

[Mark Wolfe]

I read something on a forum somewhere which seemed to imply that the neo-myth folks are scrambling to add micro-sd card support to some of their flash carts. IMO it is a dollar short and a day late even if they do manage it. I can not believe they were so short sighted or perhaps overly-confident that their flashcart platform would take off. It seems like they keep lowering the price as all the newer and better carts are coming out that have functionality users actually want, and since KRIKzz hit the scene, functionality we never even dreamed of. I only bought the PCE flash cart from the NEO team. At least that has usb connectivity and does not require a proprietary piggy-back cart to run. I still find it to be lacking though and I would love to see KRIKzz take a stab at one some day

 

I can not wait for the new N64 flash carts. I may even sell my Z64 w/ the CF drive hack and my CD64 .

[Chilly Willy]

I read something on a forum somewhere which seemed to imply that the neo-myth folks are scrambling to add micro-sd card support to some of their flash carts.

 

That would be wrong. The SD/MicroSD card support is through GBA flash carts with an SD or MicroSD card port on them. The two most commonly used are the Neo2-SD and Neo2-Pro. Perhaps they were suggesting that bundling one of those with the Myth might be better for sales of the Myth in question and you misunderstood... or maybe they misunderstood. That would be better for NeoFlash - instead of shipping the Myth (SNES, MD, N64, etc) with a regular flash cart, ship it with a Neo2-SD/Pro.

 

 

It seems like they keep lowering the price as all the newer and better carts are coming out that have functionality users actually want, and since KRIKzz hit the scene, functionality we never even dreamed of.

 

Err - newer and CHEAPER you mean. "Better" is not necessarily true as the Myth carts generally have more features than any other flash cart out, other than built in SD card support (needs the Neo2-SD or Neo2-Pro as mentioned above). For example, no other flash cart for the MD has extra RAM, EEPROM save support, or the FM chip for SMS mode.

 

It is also the nature of competition to drive prices down. That's a GOOD thing, and I'm glad to see more flash carts appear as that has always been my biggest complaint about the Myth carts - too expensive.

 

 

I only bought the PCE flash cart from the NEO team. At least that has usb connectivity and does not require a proprietary piggy-back cart to run. I still find it to be lacking though and I would love to see KRIKzz take a stab at one some day

 

Me too. I'd snatch up a KRIKzz PCE card in a heart beat!

 

 

I can not wait for the new N64 flash carts. I may even sell my Z64 w/ the CF drive hack and my CD64 .

 

The KRIKzz N64 cart does sound good, and his prices are always nice. It should do well against the competition.

[HARMIK]

I don't understand why NEO dose not just put a SD slot on there Multi Carts, it would make the design much cleaner. Also less confusing when I first started looking at there carts I was like I need a GBA adapter ?

 

I just don't understand why they stick with there adapter thing.

[Chilly Willy]

I don't understand why NEO dose not just put a SD slot on there Multi Carts, it would make the design much cleaner. Also less confusing when I first started looking at there carts I was like I need a GBA adapter ?

 

I just don't understand why they stick with there adapter thing.

 

To be honest, I think it was to help sell GBA flash carts. They probably over produced the hell out of them, and looked at ways to sell them on other platforms. The only recent one they make is the Neo2-Pro, which was needed to make the N64 Myth more attractive.

 

If you want an engineering reason, flash goes bad eventually. Especially if you write it all the time. Having the flash on a separate cheaper cart that can be easily replaced means it should be better in the long run.

 

Given they were going to use a GBA flash cart, having an SD interface in addition to the GBA connector and the USB connector probably seemed like too many connectors. Especially as they already had GBA carts with SD/MicroSD interfaces.

[StoneAgeGamer]

[the.golden.ax]

 

 

 

Soooo, it plays NES roms as well then?

 

AX

[StoneAgeGamer]

 

 

 

Soooo, it plays NES roms as well then?

 

AX

 

Yes, but I do believe the 64drive can as well, at least thats what it looks like from pictures. I believe they both use a pre-existing NES emulator that was written for the N64.