Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[GroovyBee]

Ok,

which has better colors:-

 

Jupiter Ace or ZX81

 

On screen or the computer case?

[PeteD]

You know what else is even better than kicking someone's ass with irrefutable pro-Atari debate skillz? Helping 64 guys understand the finer points of the Atari so they get an urge to tinker with it.

 

Just to clarify, this isn't what you were doing DimensionX...

 

Come on, it it wasn't for him you wouldn't have written the Sodding Rainbows graphics pre-processor.

 

That implies that i actually coded it... and it's Sodding Rainbow (singular) okay?!

 

You know you have, even if only in your head

[Bryan]

And never forget Bryan, that i can never make you think something because you have your own will, haven't you?

 

I'm afraid you caught me. I'm renting my will.

[+wood_jl]

It's NOT my opinion. Take a look at all screenshots i have posted. Even ONE of them would be impossible to do with C64's limited palette.

Then i don't care if you like rainbows or not.

 

I suggest anyone critical of the Commodore 64 compare the Atari8 version of Gauntlet with the C64 version. I remember that was one of your screenshots; it's one that I would not have included if I was trying to make a good point about the Atari8.

 

The C64 Gauntlet is pretty cool, considering it's an old 8-bit. I don't know if the Atari8 could have done better, but I suspect it could have.

 

Once again, I'm primarily and Atari8 man myself, just trying to be fair.

[Bryan]

That implies that i actually coded it... and it's Sodding Rainbow (singular) okay?!

 

Oh come on, everyone knows you have to have Sodding Rainbow Standard, and Sodding Rainbow Deluxe, and Sodding Rainbow Professional Upgrade Edition...

[TMR]

That implies that i actually coded it... and it's Sodding Rainbow (singular) okay?!

 

You know you have, even if only in your head

 

Well okay... but that's because we both know that putting a sodding rainbow behind some graphics is horrifically easy! It's not as though i registered a Sodding Rainbow domain or anything... yet.

Edited May 8, 2010 by TMR

[TMR]

That implies that i actually coded it... and it's Sodding Rainbow (singular) okay?!

 

Oh come on, everyone knows you have to have Sodding Rainbow Standard, and Sodding Rainbow Deluxe, and Sodding Rainbow Professional Upgrade Edition...

 

i take it you're wanting to sub-license...? =-)

[NorthPole(heeHAW)]

Why is this nonsense still going on DX?

 

I am trying to learn stuff or get a heads up as i know almost nothing about coding. You are not a programmer. So why argue with people who are programmers in a programmers thread?

 

Do you tell a surgeon how to operate? or debate with a Gardener when to sow their seeds?

 

Basically I know nothing and I want to learn and you are stopping me from doing that.

 

Can you stop being rude and turning this whole thing in to something you obviously want... A thread about you.

 

Be thankfull that the people in this forum are happy to help. Cut some slack, listen, get a compiler, compile... We could even bitch over 'Hello World' if you like.

 

 

ELSE

 

Someone's gonna get FIRED!

 

Aaron.

[Bryan]

The C64 Gauntlet is pretty cool, considering it's an old 8-bit. I don't know if the Atari8 could have done better, but I suspect it could have.

It could have been better, but it would never look like the 64 version. That's just one of those things the 64 is really good at.

 

 

This is interesting... someone just playing with Pokey randomly:

 

 

Kinda shows how someone might stumble into a new effect.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Bryan

[DimensionX]

Why is this nonsense still going on DX?

 

I am trying to learn stuff or get a heads up as i know almost nothing about coding. You are not a programmer. So why argue with people who are programmers in a programmers thread?

 

Do you tell a surgeon how to operate? or debate with a Gardener when to sow their seeds?

 

Basically I know nothing and I want to learn and you are stopping me from doing that.

 

Can you stop being rude and turning this whole thing in to something you obviously want... A thread about you.

 

Be thankfull that the people in this forum are happy to help. Cut some slack, listen, get a compiler, compile... We could even bitch over 'Hello World' if you like.

 

 

ELSE

 

Someone's gonna get FIRED!

 

Aaron.

 

This discussion was about many things that i do know lot about. Graphics for exemple, sound too. And even if i'm not a programmer i do have a good knowledge in some areas. Perhaps even better then most programmers in this thread who claimed lots of things that were incorrect.

 

@Bryan

 

This is how A8 should have sounded

 

Can i rent your will for this one?

 

No, this isn't any more relevant or funny than anything else you've posted.

 

Ooh, i forgot that you're a programmer.

 

(how about that one?)

 

Ok,

which has better colors:-

 

Jupiter Ace or ZX81

 

None of them, because Luxor ABC 80 had the best colours around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_80

 

I will be leaving you now and continue to post here

http://www.atariage.com/forums/forum/12-atari-8-bit-computers/

Edited May 9, 2010 by DimensionX

[popmilo]

...

Today, I'm very seriously considering a blend of the Propeller and the Apple as a retro development station. It's possible for that chip to present itself as ROM, render significant video and sound, and take over from the 6502, when appropriate, just like CP/M and other expansion cards did back in the day. I can't really do that on the C64 and Atari machines without a whole new level of complexity. It could happen on the CoCo, but without integrated video, and I just don't know the TI well enough to comment, and I don't have one.

...

What is the main difference between expansion capabilities of those three ?

 

I always thought C64 is pretty good with its expansion port with whole address and data bus exposed and DMA and stuff like that...

In what way is Apple better ?

 

Atari has some interesting pins on its Parallel bus interface connector:

EXTENB - "CPU External decoder Enable"

B02,Phi2 CPU Phase 2 clock

RAS' Row Address Strobe

CAS' Column Address Strobe

MPD' Math Pack (FP) Disable

EXTSEL' External Select

RST' Reset output

RDY' Ready input

EXTENB' CPU External decoder Enable

REF' Refresh cycle

LR/W' Latched read/write

 

Looks like more stuff is exposed than on C64...

EXTENB, MPD,EXTSEL and LR-w are not familiar to me... what do they do ?

 

A8 has no DMA as C64 ?

Or is it one of these pins that makes it possible ?

[Rybags]

A8 has RDY input.

 

Problem is, to use it properly, you'd need HSync output so that an external device would know which cycles are guaranteed to be available.

 

Although I suppose you could just hold the processor at bay for one frame, and probably work it out by where the Refresh cycles occur in the offscreen area.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Rybags

[TMR]

This discussion was about many things that i do know lot about. Graphics for exemple, sound too. And even if i'm not a programmer i do have a good knowledge in some areas Perhaps even better then most programmers in this thread who claimed lots of things that were incorrect.

 

The only knowledge relevant to this particular discussion would be about the Atari 8-bit and C64, but you're obviously deficient in those particular areas otherwise the programmers wouldn't have had to teach you the absolute basics of the Atari 8-bit such as how many colours the CTIA-based display modes have, how 16-bit frequencies work (i'm not sure you actually understood that one, but people still tried), that the "256 colour mode" you quoted from wikipedia isn't actually a mode but software generated and so on...

 

For somebody claiming to know a lot about graphics you were incredibly reluctant to produce even a simple mock-up as a vain attempt to prove your point over Xenon, instead you repeatedly contradicted yourself by setting what you personally considered to be requirements for a conversion and then posting screenshots of games like Warhawk and Last Guardian that didn't match those criteria.

 

No, this isn't any more relevant or funny than anything else you've posted.

 

Ooh, i forgot that you're a programmer.

 

(how about that one?)

 

It's hard to tell if that was meant to be a joke or a personal insult but it failed either way.

[GroovyBee]

This discussion was about many things that i do know lot about. Graphics for exemple, sound too. And even if i'm not a programmer i do have a good knowledge in some areas. Perhaps even better then most programmers in this thread who claimed lots of things that were incorrect.

 

OK Mr "graphics expert" please show us your mock-up of Xenon on the A8 if you're so much better at graphics than us programmers.

 

The programmers you are arguing with have produced and are still producing games/demos for the A8, C64, 7800 and other machines/consoles too. If we didn't understand how the graphics or sound systems worked on these machines we wouldn't be able to make games or demos.

[DimensionX]

This discussion was about many things that i do know lot about. Graphics for exemple, sound too. And even if i'm not a programmer i do have a good knowledge in some areas Perhaps even better then most programmers in this thread who claimed lots of things that were incorrect.

 

The only knowledge relevant to this particular discussion would be about the Atari 8-bit and C64, but you're obviously deficient in those particular areas otherwise the programmers wouldn't have had to teach you the absolute basics of the Atari 8-bit such as how many colours the CTIA-based display modes have, how 16-bit frequencies work (i'm not sure you actually understood that one, but people still tried), that the "256 colour mode" you quoted from wikipedia isn't actually a mode but software generated and so on...

 

For somebody claiming to know a lot about graphics you were incredibly reluctant to produce even a simple mock-up as a vain attempt to prove your point over Xenon, instead you repeatedly contradicted yourself by setting what you personally considered to be requirements for a conversion and then posting screenshots of games like Warhawk and Last Guardian that didn't match those criteria.

 

No, this isn't any more relevant or funny than anything else you've posted.

 

Ooh, i forgot that you're a programmer.

 

(how about that one?)

 

It's hard to tell if that was meant to be a joke or a personal insult but it failed either way.

 

 

At last i found a pic of my fellow C64 combatant

 

Yeah, that's why i have learned so much. I learned that if the same channels on the pokey chip plays the same note, they shift from 8 to 16 bit, and becomes 3 instead of four, then i learned that SID has more channels, because they are 16 bit. Then i learned that Sid could produce all sounds which must be truly unique because no other synthesis in the world can do that, from good ol' wavetable to FM. Then i learned that dithering could be more detailed then solid graphics. Then i learned that A8's processor wasn't "almost twice as fast" even if the Mhz says so. And then i learned that C64 version of Rtype was the same as "good graphics". But the good knowledge don't stop there, i learned one more real importand thing, that new 8/16 bit computers are better then the old ones. Wait, i also learned that dithering wasn't about the palette.

 

Quite amazing how much i have learned in this thread so far. Perhaps it's a bit to much of good healthy information for me. And i really think that you'll be better of discussing all these amazing things by yourself.

 

Like you said, i'm not a programmer, just a retro entusiast. And you said several times that i don't belong here and should post in other parts of the forum. Yet i get questions all the time that people expects me to answer? Well, don't expect anymore answers because i don't really belong here with all those ace programmers who posesses such great knowledge.

 

And TMR, you'll get a big credit for being a retro freak like myself.

 

And GroovyBee

 

Take a look at Sidewinder II. (at least 3 real good shades)

 

Perhaps not Xenon, but could be something to develop to the 8bit Xenon.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/FoYcWinFFUc/0.jpg

 

PS: Did you see ABC 80's awesome colours?

Edited May 9, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

 

Yeah, that's why i have learned so much. I learned that if the same channels on the pokey chip plays the same note, they shift from 8 to 16 bit, and becomes 3 instead of four, then i learned that SID has more channels, because they are 16 bit. Then i learned that Sid could produce all sounds which must be truly unique because no other synthesis in the world can do that, from good ol' wavetable to FM. Then i learned that dithering could be more detailed then solid graphics. Then i learned that A8's processor wasn't "almost twice as fast" even if the Mhz says so. And then i learned that C64 version of Rtype was the same as "good graphics". But the good knowledge don't stop there, i learned one more real importand thing, that new 8/16 bit computers are better then the old ones. Wait, i also learned that dithering wasn't about the palette.

 

 

That just goes to prove that throughout this whole thread you have had ZERO interest in what anyone else has to say. You've posted a list there of things that YOU have made up to take the piss out of actual facts because those facts counteract your baseless claims.

[GroovyBee]

Yeah, that's why i have learned so much. I learned that if the same channels on the pokey chip plays the same note, they shift from 8 to 16 bit, and becomes 3 instead of four, then i learned that SID has more channels, because they are 16 bit. Then i learned that Sid could produce all sounds which must be truly unique because no other synthesis in the world can do that, from good ol' wavetable to FM. Then i learned that dithering could be more detailed then solid graphics. Then i learned that A8's processor wasn't "almost twice as fast" even if the Mhz says so. And then i learned that C64 version of Rtype was the same as "good graphics". But the good knowledge don't stop there, i learned one more real importand thing, that new 8/16 bit computers are better then the old ones. Wait, i also learned that dithering wasn't about the palette.

 

Judging by the amount of tripe in this one paragraph Wikipedia truly is your bible .

[PeteD]

It's nothing but trolling now.

[+SpiceWare]

Quite amazing how much i have learned in this thread so far.

It's quite amazing how much you haven't learned in this thread.

[DimensionX]

 

Yeah, that's why i have learned so much. I learned that if the same channels on the pokey chip plays the same note, they shift from 8 to 16 bit, and becomes 3 instead of four, then i learned that SID has more channels, because they are 16 bit. Then i learned that Sid could produce all sounds which must be truly unique because no other synthesis in the world can do that, from good ol' wavetable to FM. Then i learned that dithering could be more detailed then solid graphics. Then i learned that A8's processor wasn't "almost twice as fast" even if the Mhz says so. And then i learned that C64 version of Rtype was the same as "good graphics". But the good knowledge don't stop there, i learned one more real importand thing, that new 8/16 bit computers are better then the old ones. Wait, i also learned that dithering wasn't about the palette.

 

 

That just goes to prove that throughout this whole thread you have had ZERO interest in what anyone else has to say. You've posted a list there of things that YOU have made up to take the piss out of actual facts because those facts counteract your baseless claims.

 

Not really. It was when you and some other people started to post crap like that when i got a bit tired. I thought, oh no, they think i must be totally stupid and unaware of just about everyting, we can trick a non programmer as much as we like, he will not know a thing anyway. And when you noticed that i wasn't that dumb, you changed your mind pretty fast.

 

That's not a honest discussion.

 

Besides that, this is a "programmers thread" and stupid me don't belong here.

[potatohead]

Popmilo, I liked the Apple expansion for these reasons:

 

-in the case cards, this rocks in a lot of ways

 

-some slots being simple, one being full service, and I think that was slot 0 Too much complexity on every slot made interface hardware expensive. Too little, prevented all possible expansions of the machine

 

-smart ROM code planning, each card had a small page for a boot, or init code, and a swappable page that always landed in the same 6502 space, for larger support functions

 

-Apples were very open, as were CoCo's You got schematics, commented ROM code with bits in that ROM being designed to be used for hacking, learning, doing

 

-8 slots, one with a video signal tap The TI had it's expansion cabinet, which was very similar. Huge though. I had one, and it weighed a TON. The multiple slots meant multiple devices all operating together, and that made a market for add ons. It was possible to stuff a 6809, Z80, special I/O DAC, ADC, video, sound, etc... into an Apple and have it all work.

 

-fast disk expansion, multiple controllers and multiple, fast, drives.

 

Lots of things were possible on C64 and XL, XE expansion connectors, cart slots, but they were kind of a curio, in that normal functions were disturbed when using them. On Apple that wasn't really the case, and if it was, the machine was easily made modal by inserting a boot environment disk, not plugging things in and out.

 

The CoCo had a similar deal, with it's multi-pak interface. Kind of gangly, compared to Apple, but many of the same ideas implemented, such that normal capabilities were not impacted by having lots of stuff plugged into the machine.

 

If one was a gamer, it took a lot of money to really trick out an Apple. The result was still often sub-par, due to the system clock speed, and the limited graphics. If you wanted to do technical computing, or productivity computing, Apples knocked it out of the park early, selling through '92 I believe.

 

Re: Propeller. It's possible to either have the Propeller present itself as an Apple ROM, so that it's supported by, and can operate with the ROM in the machine, and the hardware interface logic can be very simple. Finally, that card can exist with the disks, and other goodies, making for a rather nice little dev box. Heavy though... I may do it. I keep coming back to it, largely because I could have the Prop do video, instead of the Apple.... while still having Applesoft, and the various things that Apples do.

 

 

 

 

...

Today, I'm very seriously considering a blend of the Propeller and the Apple as a retro development station. It's possible for that chip to present itself as ROM, render significant video and sound, and take over from the 6502, when appropriate, just like CP/M and other expansion cards did back in the day. I can't really do that on the C64 and Atari machines without a whole new level of complexity. It could happen on the CoCo, but without integrated video, and I just don't know the TI well enough to comment, and I don't have one.

...

What is the main difference between expansion capabilities of those three ?

 

I always thought C64 is pretty good with its expansion port with whole address and data bus exposed and DMA and stuff like that...

In what way is Apple better ?

 

Atari has some interesting pins on its Parallel bus interface connector:

EXTENB - "CPU External decoder Enable"

B02,Phi2 CPU Phase 2 clock

RAS' Row Address Strobe

CAS' Column Address Strobe

MPD' Math Pack (FP) Disable

EXTSEL' External Select

RST' Reset output

RDY' Ready input

EXTENB' CPU External decoder Enable

REF' Refresh cycle

LR/W' Latched read/write

 

Looks like more stuff is exposed than on C64...

EXTENB, MPD,EXTSEL and LR-w are not familiar to me... what do they do ?

 

A8 has no DMA as C64 ?

Or is it one of these pins that makes it possible ?

Edited May 9, 2010 by potatohead

[PeteD]

 

Not really. It was when you and some other people started to post crap like that when i got a bit tired. I thought, oh no, they think i must be totally stupid and unaware of just about everyting, we can trick a non programmer as much as we like, he will not know a thing anyway. And when you noticed that i wasn't that dumb, you changed your mind pretty fast.

 

That's not a honest discussion.

 

Besides that, this is a "programmers thread" and stupid me don't belong here.

 

Still showing your ignorance here as firstly the "crap" part of what you posted above is what YOU made from a bunch of FACTS other people posted. Some of the ones you posted are actually correct, things like "SID has more channels because they're 16 bit" was NEVER said by ANYONE. Therefore you are a liar once again.

 

Let's see how you like it..

 

DimensionX, Angry synaesthetic who thinks all Americans are dumb and can't count, thinks atari 800 is better than EVERY other computer, will quite happily threaten other forum members for perceived slights and promise retaliation. Anything dithered is ugly UNLESS it's on the A8. Anything without a rainbow is ugly. Pokey has 5 channels because you can combine 2 to make a bass and still have 3 left.

 

Shall I go on?

[potatohead]

@DimensionX -- Dude! You've got an ego the size of a planet man! Relax, have some fun, knock that chip off your shoulder, and you will be fine. I know I've said it once, but I'll say it again and clarify:

 

This is a good crowd! If you are constantly running afoul, it's your deal, not the many great members of AA. Think on that. On this matter specifically, it's not that you are not a programmer that is at issue. It's that you are not recognizing the programmers understanding of the hardware and computing in general that is.

 

Every single retro programmer I know, myself included*, loves to share stuff we know about these computers, because we think it's a lot of fun and a great challenge at times. If people are open to learning things, making friends, doing stuff, everybody is up for that, because that's how the hobby grows. You are among some very nice people here. More often than not, ask and 'ye shall receive. That's been my experience, more often than not.

 

*Still learning how to do stuff, probably always will.

[DimensionX]

 

Not really. It was when you and some other people started to post crap like that when i got a bit tired. I thought, oh no, they think i must be totally stupid and unaware of just about everyting, we can trick a non programmer as much as we like, he will not know a thing anyway. And when you noticed that i wasn't that dumb, you changed your mind pretty fast.

 

That's not a honest discussion.

 

Besides that, this is a "programmers thread" and stupid me don't belong here.

 

Still showing your ignorance here as firstly the "crap" part of what you posted above is what YOU made from a bunch of FACTS other people posted. Some of the ones you posted are actually correct, things like "SID has more channels because they're 16 bit" was NEVER said by ANYONE. Therefore you are a liar once again.

 

Let's see how you like it..

 

DimensionX, Angry synaesthetic who thinks all Americans are dumb and can't count, thinks atari 800 is better than EVERY other computer, will quite happily threaten other forum members for perceived slights and promise retaliation. Anything dithered is ugly UNLESS it's on the A8. Anything without a rainbow is ugly. Pokey has 5 channels because you can combine 2 to make a bass and still have 3 left.

 

Shall I go on?

 

Then you call me a liar?

 

I think it speaks for itself. To all readers. Just read the thread to see who's lying and who's not.

[TMR]

*Still learning how to do stuff, probably always will.

 

Every progammer is in that boat, that's half the fun of programming and especially for the older machines.