Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[DimensionX]

 

To have a big palette to choose from like on Snes means that you can create any spreads for the 256 available on screen colours. That means more fine nuances to make everything look more real.

 

See above, I edited because you edited and you missed my edit..

 

Like you said yourself. It's always an advantage to be able to choose your colours from a big palette?

 

Even if you just use 5 colours you can choose exactly what colours to use. 5 different greens? Or Yellow?

 

Then you can switch palette for each new level if you have a big palette to choose from. That gives the game more variation. In fact you can switch colours many times in the same game.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

 

To have a big palette to choose from like on Snes means that you can create any spreads for the 256 available on screen colours. That means more fine nuances to make everything look more real.

 

See above, I edited because you edited and you missed my edit..

 

Like you said yourself. It's always an advantage to be able to choose your colours from a big palette?

 

Even if you just use 5 colours you can choose exactly what colours to use. 5 different greens? Or Yellow?

 

Then you can switch palette for each new level if you have a big palette to choose from. That gives the game more variation. In fact you can switch colours many times in the same game.

 

Dithering?

[DimensionX]

 

To have a big palette to choose from like on Snes means that you can create any spreads for the 256 available on screen colours. That means more fine nuances to make everything look more real.

 

See above, I edited because you edited and you missed my edit..

 

Like you said yourself. It's always an advantage to be able to choose your colours from a big palette?

 

Even if you just use 5 colours you can choose exactly what colours to use. 5 different greens? Or Yellow?

 

Then you can switch palette for each new level if you have a big palette to choose from. That gives the game more variation. In fact you can switch colours many times in the same game.

 

Dithering?

 

Dithering isn't a good method to use because you will destroy all detail and half the resolution using that method. And it's very limited anyway.

[ceti331]

 

Only when you have a big palette to choose from.

Snes for exemple had 256 on screen colours AND a palette of over 32.000 colours to choose from.

 

 

clearly for a certain number onscreen, a bigger palette doesn't help

 

CPC464 xenon looks quite good to me, only 27 color palette but 16 onscreen being very effective.

an attempt at A8 xenon (see my mockup earlier) is clearly lacking onscreen colours.

[DimensionX]

 

Only when you have a big palette to choose from.

Snes for exemple had 256 on screen colours AND a palette of over 32.000 colours to choose from.

 

 

clearly for a certain number onscreen, a bigger palette doesn't help

 

CPC464 xenon looks quite good to me, only 27 color palette but 16 onscreen being very effective.

an attempt at A8 xenon (see my mockup earlier) is clearly lacking onscreen colours.

 

Yes it helps because you can switch palette many times in the same game to give it more variation. Then you can create much finer spreads using a big palette.

[ceti331]

Dithering isn't a good method to use because you will destroy all detail and half the resolution using that method. And it's very limited anyway.

 

Having large areas of single color also means 'resolution lost'

Generally in computer graphics you'd choose less res for more color depth

 

Dithering was always a highly effective technique on 8,16 bit computers.

even the 32bit PSX benefited from dithering

[DimensionX]

Dithering isn't a good method to use because you will destroy all detail and half the resolution using that method. And it's very limited anyway.

 

Having large areas of single color also means 'resolution lost'

Generally in computer graphics you'd choose less res for more color depth

 

Dithering was always a highly effective technique on 8,16 bit computers.

even the 32bit PSX benefited from dithering

 

Dithering is only real effective in much higher resolutions when you don't really notice it.

[ceti331]

Yes it helps because you can switch palette many times in the same game to give it more variation. Then you can create much finer spreads using a big palette.

 

One way to look at it. for each machine ask what you'd do to improve it.

 

I dont mind samey colorschemes between different games.. machines always tended to have a distinctive best way of using them. The bitmap brothers games had similar palettes... but IMO looked quite a bit better than rivals.

 

 

Amstrad CPC464 vs commodore 64... the Amstrad has bigger palette, but I think I'd still go for the C64's hardware fast sprites & scrolling over the Amstrad

[DimensionX]

Yes it helps because you can switch palette many times in the same game to give it more variation. Then you can create much finer spreads using a big palette.

 

One way to look at it. for each machine ask what you'd do to improve it.

 

I dont mind samey colorschemes between different games.. machines always tended to have a distinctive best way of using them. The bitmap brothers games had similar palettes... but IMO looked quite a bit better than rivals.

 

 

Amstrad CPC464 vs commodore 64... the Amstrad has bigger palette, but I think I'd still go for the C64's hardware fast sprites & scrolling over the Amstrad

 

If you look at Bitmaps games, they use quite different palettes. But they use them very effective, and they had to because 16 on screen colours to work with, isn't much if you are about to create smooth shaded graphics.

 

Many games change palette often, like many driving games for exemple and creates night stages, sunset stages, different environments etc and makes good use of ST's 512 colour palette.

[PeteD]

 

To have a big palette to choose from like on Snes means that you can create any spreads for the 256 available on screen colours. That means more fine nuances to make everything look more real.

 

See above, I edited because you edited and you missed my edit..

 

Like you said yourself. It's always an advantage to be able to choose your colours from a big palette?

 

Even if you just use 5 colours you can choose exactly what colours to use. 5 different greens? Or Yellow?

 

Then you can switch palette for each new level if you have a big palette to choose from. That gives the game more variation. In fact you can switch colours many times in the same game.

 

Dithering?

 

Dithering isn't a good method to use because you will destroy all detail and half the resolution using that method. And it's very limited anyway.

 

Well really that's just your opinion again, I think most artists (and most other people) would disagree, some form of dithering/shading gives more depth to an image, regardless of the number of colours else everything would look flat like a cartoon.

 

I'm still unsure of your stance on dithering, you seem to equate it to a bad thing that's only used when there aren't enough colours but use that to target the C64 AND machines with more colours than the 800 as if either it's never used on the atari or it doesn't matter if it is because you've got more colours "to choose from".

[DimensionX]

 

To have a big palette to choose from like on Snes means that you can create any spreads for the 256 available on screen colours. That means more fine nuances to make everything look more real.

 

See above, I edited because you edited and you missed my edit..

 

Like you said yourself. It's always an advantage to be able to choose your colours from a big palette?

 

Even if you just use 5 colours you can choose exactly what colours to use. 5 different greens? Or Yellow?

 

Then you can switch palette for each new level if you have a big palette to choose from. That gives the game more variation. In fact you can switch colours many times in the same game.

 

Dithering?

 

Dithering isn't a good method to use because you will destroy all detail and half the resolution using that method. And it's very limited anyway.

 

Well really that's just your opinion again, I think most artists (and most other people) would disagree, some form of dithering/shading gives more depth to an image, regardless of the number of colours else everything would look flat like a cartoon.

 

I'm still unsure of your stance on dithering, you seem to equate it to a bad thing that's only used when there aren't enough colours but use that to target the C64 AND machines with more colours than the 800 as if either it's never used on the atari or it doesn't matter if it is because you've got more colours "to choose from".

 

I used it a lot on the ST, because lack of colours. To make a game detailed using dithering, isn't even to think of. Dithering is mostly suited for still pictures without too much detail. If you have access to shades, use them instead.

 

But off course, you can use dithering as an "effect" to create a certain style.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

 

If you look at Bitmaps games, they use quite different palettes. But they use them very effective, and they had to because 16 on screen colours to work with, isn't much if you are about to create smooth shaded graphics.

 

Many games change palette often, like many driving games for exemple and creates night stages, sunset stages, different environments etc and makes good use of ST's 512 colour palette.

 

BB games (Dan Malone drawn stuff anyway) used a more C64 palette though, a reasonable shade (say 6-8 greys) with some very different colours and interleaved those using the greys to make other coloured shades. That's how things are done on the C64, You've got 5 greys in total including black and white, you add to those the blues or reds or greens etc and you dither them/interleave them (as the BB games do) to get the perception of more colour.

 

*edit*

Changed 4 greys to 5. durr

Edited May 8, 2010 by PeteD

[ceti331]

 

If you look at Bitmaps games, they use quite different palettes. But they use them very effective, and they had to because 16 on screen colours to work with, isn't much if you are about to create smooth shaded graphics.

 

Many games change palette often, like many driving games for exemple and creates night stages, sunset stages, different environments etc and makes good use of ST's 512 colour palette.

 

most bitmap games were 'greys' + 'yellow-orange-brown' (+ fewsome incidental colors). they looked great.

the key thing was lots of shades of single colors (as you correctly identify) to get lots of detail in the objects.

 

Some atari ST games even used the C64 palette (or something similar)

 

I'm not saying a bigger palette isn't good... just that on most computers the limitation you most feel is "not enough onscreen".

(Rare case was BBC micro which could display more onscreen colors than it had in its palette!)

Edited May 8, 2010 by ceti331

[PeteD]

 

I used it a lot on the ST, because lack of colours. To make a game detailed using dithering, isn't even to think of. Dithering is mostly suited for still pictures without too much detail. If you have access to shades, use them instead.

 

But on a low colour (on screen) machine, which let's face it is all of them until at least 16bpp displays (and even that you can see banding) you've pretty much GOT to use dithering, if you just used shades you'd end up with more of a blurry mess than you did if you dithered or a monochrome looking image on the machine you're touting the palette on.

[PeteD]

 

(Rare case was BBC micro which could display more onscreen colors than it had in its palette!)

 

Yeah, but those bad boys FLASHED on and off!!

[ceti331]

 

If you look at Bitmaps games, they use quite different palettes. But they use them very effective, and they had to because 16 on screen colours to work with, isn't much if you are about to create smooth shaded graphics.

 

Many games change palette often, like many driving games for exemple and creates night stages, sunset stages, different environments etc and makes good use of ST's 512 colour palette.

 

BB games (Dan Malone drawn stuff anyway) used a more C64 palette though, a reasonable shade (say 6-8 greys) with some very different colours and interleaved those using the greys to make other coloured shades. That's how things are done on the C64, You've got 4 greys in total including black and white, you add to those the blues or reds or greens etc and you dither them/interleave them (as the BB games do) to get the perception of more colour.

yup that was probably the best.. i'd describe his palette has halfway between C64 and the other BB games.

[DimensionX]

 

If you look at Bitmaps games, they use quite different palettes. But they use them very effective, and they had to because 16 on screen colours to work with, isn't much if you are about to create smooth shaded graphics.

 

Many games change palette often, like many driving games for exemple and creates night stages, sunset stages, different environments etc and makes good use of ST's 512 colour palette.

 

BB games (Dan Malone drawn stuff anyway) used a more C64 palette though, a reasonable shade (say 6-8 greys) with some very different colours and interleaved those using the greys to make other coloured shades. That's how things are done on the C64, You've got 4 greys in total including black and white, you add to those the blues or reds or greens etc and you dither them/interleave them (as the BB games do) to get the perception of more colour.

 

To create a smooth detailed look like in Bitmap brothers games, use real shades. The resolution is too low to be dithered. You will loose all detail.

 

Bitmap often used about three different spreads and some well thoughtout single colours.

 

I have examined their palette in De Luxe Paint ST many times.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[ceti331]

 

(Rare case was BBC micro which could display more onscreen colors than it had in its palette!)

 

Yeah, but those bad boys FLASHED on and off!!

 

yeah I do recall setting the flashing rate as fast as possible

 

I would be curious to hook up a BBC micro to an LCD monitor with a really poor refresh rate to blur them together!

[PeteD]

 

No dithering in there then? I see lots. About the only solid colours in there is the top of the trees and the floor.

 

*edit*

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=1025

 

I'll point back to there again with some nice close-ups of background objects..

Edited May 8, 2010 by PeteD

[ceti331]

To create a smooth detailed look like in Bitmap brothers games, use real shades. The resolution is too low to be dithered. You will loose all detail.

 

Bitmap often used about three different spreads and some well thoughtout single colours.

 

Yes this is why i liked the BB games. More real detail due to all the shades. Didn't matter that most of the objects were the same colours.

BB games did resort to dithering on larger elements.. Xenon's 3rd boss, etc etc.

Other more 'colourfull' games had to dither more.

 

i think on many TV's the 320 pixels wide tended to blur ordered dither together very well

[TMR]

I wonder which computer naked guy prefers. On the one hand, the rainbow would suggest Atari, but his rainbow has a limited palette suggesting the 64. Also, he seems to be able to put the color anywhere he wants which is also more 64-like. I can't decide if he prefers 'clean' or 'unclean' graphics since he's half in the tub and half in the toilet.

 

Amstrad CPC. [Runs like buggery away from the CPC fanboys =-]

 

 

Is it? After all it came with a compulsory monitor as Rumbelows never stocked the modulator. My Mummy was very happy as she could still watch 'A Country Practice' and 'Sons and Daughters' as she still had her telly.

 

Well, the CPC fit what Bryan was talking about best because it has a more arbitary placement of colour but not a massive palette. =-)

 

I Like the colour/res of the CPC it's very Fisher Price.

 

i think i've called it that in the past, but i wasn't being quite as complementary...! i've got a CPC464 here actually, although it's not connected up at the moment.

[DimensionX]

 

No dithering in there then? I see lots. About the only solid colours in there is the top of the trees and the floor.

 

Which version of the game? Amiga or ST?

 

I mostly see clean colours and some dithering in much higher resolution then on C64. Look at the threes for exemple, brown and green in quite high resolution. The explosion uses dithering too, but most of it is shades.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

 

Which version of the game? Amiga or ST?

 

I mostly see clean colours and some dithering in much higher resolution then on C64. Look at the threes for exemple, brown and green in quite high resolution. The explosion uses dithering too, but most of it is shades.

 

WTF does the C64 have to do with this now? It's not MUCH HIGHER res than the c64 it's double the res only in X.

[ceti331]

 

No dithering in there then? I see lots. About the only solid colours in there is the top of the trees and the floor.

 

Some levels even used dithering for the floor.

 

Agree dithering was a vital technique, IMO.

It allowed you to tradeoff detail vs color depth obviously... the eye is more drawn to edges, information is not equally scattered across the screen.

 

Gods' used it well to get a 3rd 'major shading range'.. the blue tinted grey, the orange/brown, and something midway between them.

 

Even many arcade machines with huge numbers of onscreen colors used dithering (e.g. In The Hunt etc)

[TMR]

 

No dithering in there then? I see lots. About the only solid colours in there is the top of the trees and the floor.

 

UNCLEAN!!!