sack-c0s Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Geez... Fingers crossed for Eagle's project and hopefully he ignores all the trolling being done here From the screenshots it looks like Eagle know what he's doing and making good progress. If I were doing this I'd have taken the same path to be honest - it looks like a good balance between making use of the hardware and keeping the fun and playability of the original game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 That wasn't what I was trying to demonstrate. I was trying to show that what a machine is designed for and what it is capable of can be two very different things. So, tell me what was the point of "better" than the design, if not the change of a simple raster game like pong into the ego view based raster graphics was the purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Geez... Fingers crossed for Eagle's project and hopefully he ignores all the trolling being done here From the screenshots it looks like Eagle know what he's doing and making good progress. If I were doing this I'd have taken the same path to be honest - it looks like a good balance between making use of the hardware and keeping the fun and playability of the original game. It's by now the best thing (of that type) seen on the A8. And he's adding some PM "background". So everything can get fine there. I wasn't the fantasist, wanting the full background scrolling as in the C64 version... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) Geez... Fingers crossed for Eagle's project and hopefully he ignores all the trolling being done here From the screenshots it looks like Eagle know what he's doing and making good progress. If I were doing this I'd have taken the same path to be honest - it looks like a good balance between making use of the hardware and keeping the fun and playability of the original game. It's by now the best thing (of that type) seen on the A8. And he's adding some PM "background". So everything can get fine there. I wasn't the fantasist, wanting the full background scrolling as in the C64 version... Fantasist? Why? If other computers have then why not A8? Don't have gfxs like C64 it's just the way Eagle choose to get things working in time for Christmas. As you know there's someone with gfxs and it's a coder. He will not get the game but who knows if Eagle can use them with his ships to get a future game. Emkay have this is good but if in the future we have other games like this without gfxs whats the interest in just going our way destroying things without gfxs... And no, the PMs aren't solution and we know that... I'll wait to see how Eagle will cover the screen with just PMs On a space shoot'em'up probably some Planets and Stars but here how to get some Mountains? C64, for example, with 8Players Multicolour could do something but A8 I don't see. You're always destroying others work just because it isn't your likes. You always see things like A8 it's 3D or GR.7 but if it comes into 2D shoots then in your Head it's only with a clean sky and gfxs. with PMs. By the way, this is what you post about the gfxs, two Mountains each time on screen because that is the PMs you have on A8: (and I am not talking about those ugly darker luminances ) Probably we have something beautiful with lots of gfxs and sprites 'flying around' coming... Edited December 10, 2011 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Fantasist? Why?If other computers have then why not A8? Because the A8 is originally 5 years older than the C64. Ofcourse you can have the game with background, but the you have to live with one colour and wide set PMg , or using charmode resolution for the movement of the enemies..... The only chance to have the full game, is the half resolution... which is fair in all parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Fantasist? Why?If other computers have then why not A8? Because the A8 is originally 5 years older than the C64. Ofcourse you can have the game with background, but the you have to live with one colour and wide set PMg , or using charmode resolution for the movement of the enemies..... The only chance to have the full game, is the half resolution... which is fair in all parts. Show me a proof, really a proof of what you're saying. Don't post different kind of games, show real soft sprites that can only move in char resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Fantasist? Why?If other computers have then why not A8? Because the A8 is originally 5 years older than the C64. Ofcourse you can have the game with background, but the you have to live with one colour and wide set PMg , or using charmode resolution for the movement of the enemies..... The only chance to have the full game, is the half resolution... which is fair in all parts. Show me a proof, really a proof of what you're saying. Don't post different kind of games, show real soft sprites that can only move in char resolution. No need for a proof. Just learn coding , and see how less CPU time is "1.79MHz" for real. You only get the ability of understanding things, after learning them. It's Your limited understanding that screws the discussion right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Fantasist? Why?If other computers have then why not A8? Because the A8 is originally 5 years older than the C64. Ofcourse you can have the game with background, but the you have to live with one colour and wide set PMg , or using charmode resolution for the movement of the enemies..... The only chance to have the full game, is the half resolution... which is fair in all parts. Show me a proof, really a proof of what you're saying. Don't post different kind of games, show real soft sprites that can only move in char resolution. No need for a proof. Just learn coding , and see how less CPU time is "1.79MHz" for real. You only get the ability of understanding things, after learning them. It's Your limited understanding that screws the discussion right now. Hello pot - meet kettle... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 No need for a proof. Just learn coding , and see how less CPU time is "1.79MHz" for real. You only get the ability of understanding things, after learning them. It's Your limited understanding that screws the discussion right now. Hello pot - meet kettle... We have a winner - LMAO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/127613-xeo3-playable-demo-available-for-c-plus4/ Why it is possible? Because you can get many sprites in games like this. A8 problem it's the 128chars limit per charset but that can be solved. Using PMs joined on the ship or have one above each soft sprite there isn't much different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I am the most ignorant when it comes to game programming but to me playability is FAR MORE important than graphics. Case in point: mystery.atr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Hello pot - meet kettle... Says the Pot? It's still interesting. Seing people taking more care about what José is writing while he never did programming/coding on the A8. I wrote many programs in Basic and did a lot of coding small tools/routines, while people ignore what I'm writing. Really funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 http://www.atariage....le-for-c-plus4/ Why it is possible? Because you can get many sprites in games like this. A8 problem it's the 128chars limit per charset but that can be solved. Using PMs joined on the ship or have one above each soft sprite there isn't much different. Plus 4 is faster in that mode/less DMA cycle stealing. Remember the release date "1984" .... 4 colour... no overlay, no parallax, one face for all enemies of an attack wave, and very restricted movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Plus4 isn't "faster" The overall difference in cycles lost between the 2 machines in the default text mode is small. And the advantage is to the Atari. A8: 11,288 per frame, Plus4: 11,560 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Plus4 isn't "faster" The overall difference in cycles lost between the 2 machines in the default text mode is small. And the advantage is to the Atari. A8: 11,288 per frame, Plus4: 11,560 Rybags from your calculations, I am guessing you're talking about Gr.15 Bitmap Mode and not GR.12 Char Mode, right? C16 XEO3 it's in Bitmap Mode (so they can have more than one 256 chars Chaset) or in Char-Mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) It's in character mode. In bitmap the Atari gains even more since the Plus4 still does the character/attribute fetches. The biggest barrier for an almost direct port of Xeo3 is the 128 character limit. Next biggest is that it's not a finished game yet... and uses SID, although that's optional. Edited December 11, 2011 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 C16 XEO3 it's in Bitmap Mode (so they can have more than one 256 chars Chaset) or in Char-Mode? It uses character mode, although there's no need to make a distinction if memory serves because the DMA overheads are the same for either like they are for the C64. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Plus4 isn't "faster" The overall difference in cycles lost between the 2 machines in the default text mode is small. And the advantage is to the Atari. A8: 11,288 per frame, Plus4: 11,560 Using hardware scrolling on the A8 with that mode at 200 lines uses 10800 cycles for straight dma reading already.. No Refresh counted in, or PM DMA. Some cycles can be saved, to keep the scoreboard at 40 byte DMA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 It's in character mode. In bitmap the Atari gains even more since the Plus4 still does the character/attribute fetches. Which excludes the 5 colour. The biggest barrier for an almost direct port of Xeo3 is the 128 character limit. No charmode no char limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The game isn't in bitmap mode, as has been pointed out probably 3 times already. Scrolling DMA loss can be lowered by using HScrol values C - F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Plus4 isn't "faster" The overall difference in cycles lost between the 2 machines in the default text mode is small. And the advantage is to the Atari. A8: 11,288 per frame, Plus4: 11,560 Using hardware scrolling on the A8 with that mode at 200 lines uses 10800 cycles for straight dma reading already.. No Refresh counted in, or PM DMA. Some cycles can be saved, to keep the scoreboard at 40 byte DMA. That you usually, when things aren't your likes you start increasing the problems... This XEO3 C16 and many others from C64 uses 20 or 21 (XEO3) Charlines in the scrolling part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The game isn't in bitmap mode, as has been pointed out probably 3 times already. Scrolling DMA loss can be lowered by using HScrol values C - F. Sticking to bitmap mode would be the solution for the A8... for this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) That you usually, when things aren't your likes you start increasing the problems... This XEO3 C16 and many others from C64 uses 20 or 21 (XEO3) Charlines in the scrolling part Keep the definition clear. It's not "me" making the things problematic. It's the features of the machine. Things would be all so easy, if Antic at least was storing one charset in some internal memory. One solution for a scrolling in XEO3 is a charset rotation.... not sure, if a needed "reverse" copy of moving objects exchange the gained CPU cycles for good. And, if informations were correct, the usage of 4 colours in the Plus 4 is some used technique to reduce the bad lines... Edited December 11, 2011 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) The game isn't in bitmap mode, as has been pointed out probably 3 times already. Scrolling DMA loss can be lowered by using HScrol values C - F. Sticking to bitmap mode would be the solution for the A8... for this game. Why? -> Just because of the nº of Chars used in the game map? -> Because of more chars need for the shifting of sprites? -> Because of more cycles cost in soft sprite? -> Because of PF2&PF3 colour clash? OR: -> All combined? But also: -> Just because you don't want to and this will a quickly turning into. "you know, GR.7 and digis" ? Please choose the option you like more... (or you think it's the correct one ) Edited December 11, 2011 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 You should say "my solution", not "the solution". It'd look crap in Gr. 7 anyway. Cycles vs Plus4 aren't a problem. The PMGs haven't even been considered, just doing the player's ship in PMGs would claw back plenty of cycles. And Atari can do the memory moves split into 4 tasks, Plus4 has to move the entire screen at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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