Tursi Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Thus it is very simple for a running program to switch between banks. You only have to make sure that when you are switching, there is nothing executing from cart space. Yep! Alternately, if you have appropriate code at the same address in both banks, then it's also safe to switch. You just have to remember that after the write, you're in the other bank. But with the nature of most Jaguar software, it's more likely that you'll be running from RAM and just using the flash for storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoquickcapri Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 [but there just isn't much there and the programmers abandoned it becuase adding sound and music to it would have ruined the frame rate. They told you this, did they? I think the Jaguar being discontinued and Atari getting merged with JTS after a disasterous Christmas 1995 had a lot more to do with why Native was left where it was ... as nothing more than an awesome demo. Native was a homebrew game made after the fall of Atari. They used an unofficial development tool called Jaguar Server. http://hem.passagen.se/isvar/jaguar_server/jserver.html You should read the history of the game on their website. http://duranik.com/jaguar_history.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Are there any flash carts still available? The GOAT Store says out of stock. Of course, it also says "Fisher Price: I can Remember" is a related product Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilevoix Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Anyone read my earlier post? The ps1 pulled off metal slug eit 2 mb and a 2x drive, why not the jag? What about a simple expansion cart like the Saturn had for slug and KOF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Anyone read my earlier post? The ps1 pulled off metal slug eit 2 mb and a 2x drive, why not the jag? What about a simple expansion cart like the Saturn had for slug and KOF? What I'm getting from the previous posts is that: ROM constraints (six megabytes/48 megabits) RAM constraints (Zerosquare didn't seem positive external RAM would be doable) Complexity of NEO GEO like video driver. Although the object processor and GPU could be programmed with a multi-plane tile based rendering engine the complexity would be gynormous. Also, this goes back to the RAM gotchas of the Jag. Edited July 8, 2012 by theloon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagman Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I'm curious to see how Legion Force Jidai would have turned out on the jag from Force Designs.. it looked like it was going to be like a metal slug type game.. could have been great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Shouldn't we be comparing the NEO GEO to the COJAG? Arcade hardware to arcade hardware? Edited July 8, 2012 by theloon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagman Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) no, but it would be more interesting to compare Neo Geo CD to Jag CD.. obviously NeoCD has problems with long loading times for the fighters, but otherwise very minimal things cut. The Neo Geo CD system's 58 Mbit / 7 MB of RAM was split accordingly: 68000 Program Memory: 2 MB Fix Layer Memory: 128 KB Graphics Memory: 4 MB Sound Sample Memory: 1 MB Z80 Program Memory: 64 kB VRAM: 512Kb (For graphics attributes) SRAM: 2 KB (For high scores / general save data) which i guess is still a big advantage over the Jag's minimal RAM. Edited July 8, 2012 by Jagman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoquickcapri Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Anyone read my earlier post? The ps1 pulled off metal slug eit 2 mb and a 2x drive, why not the jag? What about a simple expansion cart like the Saturn had for slug and KOF? PS1 has 3.5 megs of ram total. 2 main, 1 video, 1/2 sound. I own both the MVS and PS1 version and the PS1 has some cut animation and the explosion look like ass. You can really see the difference when using the flame shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilevoix Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Anyone read my earlier post? The ps1 pulled off metal slug eit 2 mb and a 2x drive, why not the jag? What about a simple expansion cart like the Saturn had for slug and KOF? PS1 has 3.5 megs of ram total. 2 main, 1 video, 1/2 sound. I own both the MVS and PS1 version and the PS1 has some cut animation and the explosion look like ass. You can really see the difference when using the flame shot. Me too I have both the MVS and ps1 version as well however it is a reasonable port the PS1 has so if the ps1 could do it why not the jag and jag cd? Why not an expansion cart aka sega Saturn ? Edited July 8, 2012 by evilevoix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Me too I have both the MVS and ps1 version as well however it is a reasonable port the PS1 has so if the ps1 could do it why not the jag and jag cd? Why not an expansion cart aka sega Saturn ? I think you need to re-read this thread again from top to bottom. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 You should read the history of the game on their website. http://duranik.com/jaguar_history.html Sweet - thanks for the link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 RAM constraints (Zerosquare didn't seem positive external RAM would be doable)Well, it is doable, but it's far from trivial and more limited that what you probably imagine.Basically, SCPCD did so on the (unreleased) JagCF, but this card also has a local processor that can access the RAM directly, and it's the way it's meant to be used. The RAM is also accessible from the Jaguar side, but with drawbacks, and a RAM expansion cart would have the same ones. Basically, the Jag wasn't designed to support additional RAM on cartridge. You can put some on the bus, but : - it will "steal" address space from the 6 MB that are accessible. So, if you had e.g. 2 MB of RAM, you'd be limited to 4 MB of ROM. - you could increase the amount of RAM, but it would have to use bankswitching, which makes things more difficult or slower. - unless you use static RAM (which would be pretty expensive), you'd need a memory controller. Using a stick of DDR2/3 memory would make the whole thing extremely complex and costly, not to mention it would probably use more power than what the Jaguar power supply can deliver. - the access times would be static and identical for both the ROM and the RAM, and at least 5 cycles. Which means the speed would be limited and determined by the worst case. This is not a good thing, since RAM are typically much faster when doing "burst" accesses, but can't sustain that speed in all cases. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 @Zerosquare: Sorry for the crazy clueless questions. Is there some allowance for EEPROM? Could a cart be made to access RAM where EEPROM usually is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilevoix Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 So the issue is memory? If that is the isseue then the Jag can't do what the Neo Geo can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 You could, in theory, but the EEPROM "bus" is only one-bit wide and very slow, so it wouldn't be worth it for RAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulBlazer Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Every time I come here and read about what the Jaquar can do, I just shake my head. I had thought that external memory a la what was done for the Saturn and N64 was possible, but now it sounds like it's not the case. The limiations, bugs, and problems that the system had are huge, and the fact that any good games came out for it (and people are willing to make new ones today) is just amazing and a true test of 'love' for a console. Considering when the Jaq came out, you would have thought Atari would realize it had to be more powerfull then anything else on the market at the time (SNES, Genesis, 3DO -- the Neo Geo is not a fair system to anything due to what it was made to do, IMHO). Instead it seems like a system that was stuck back in the 80's as far as tech, and should have never been released in it's current form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Aren't they completely different types of systems? One designed to specifically do 3D, and the other to do 2D with heaps of sprites etc? Isn't this apples and oranges then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 One designed to specifically do 3D, and the other to do 2D with heaps of sprites etc? But the NeoGeo wasn't designed to do 3D Oh, wait!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQkIor8hyI 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well, I think on the basis of that, Jaguars 2D is a hell of a lot more impressive than NeoGeos 3D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Aren't they completely different types of systems? One designed to specifically do 3D, and the other to do 2D with heaps of sprites etc? Isn't this apples and oranges then? Both designed to do heaps of sprites, but different in their implementation. So more like apples and pears in that respect. Well, I think on the basis of that, Jaguars 2D is a hell of a lot more impressive than NeoGeos 3D Of course it is, the Jaguar's OP was made to be able to let you do all kinds of amazing stuff with 2D. Fact is Leonard's screen is a demo and like lots of oldskool demos it's as fake as they come - doesn't mean it isn't impressive or there's a need to prove points - CJ's post was clearly for lolz. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Every time I come here and read about what the Jaquar can do, I just shake my head. I had thought that external memory a la what was done for the Saturn and N64 was possible, but now it sounds like it's not the case. The limiations, bugs, and problems that the system had are huge, and the fact that any good games came out for it (and people are willing to make new ones today) is just amazing and a true test of 'love' for a console. Considering when the Jaq came out, you would have thought Atari would realize it had to be more powerfull then anything else on the market at the time (SNES, Genesis, 3DO -- the Neo Geo is not a fair system to anything due to what it was made to do, IMHO). Instead it seems like a system that was stuck back in the 80's as far as tech, and should have never been released in it's current form. I see something like this and wonder what exactly people thought the Jaguar was supposed to be. For the time frame that the Jaguar came out, it was certainly a very powerful console, especially in comparison to the competition at the time (SNES, Genesis, 32x,). The 3DO came out around the same time and is probably just a bit more powerful than the Jag in regards to 3D, but it's not like it stomps it in the dust. The Jag is a beast with 2D graphics, and easily more powerful than any 16 bit system. In this regard, it also certainly holds its own in comparison to any of the other 32 bit systems released around the same time. As for the hardware limitations of the Jaguar, keep in mind that by the early to mid 90s, Atari was a very small company and only a fraction of the size of its competitors, and with a faction of their resources. The fact that Atari released it at all, and that (in theory) it was competitive in its capabilities with the competition, is a minor miracle in itself. The time and place of the Jaguar's launch was its biggest hurdle. It came out earlier than most other systems of its generation, and in a time where the industry was transitioning from 2D to 3D gaming, so expecting it to be more powerful than say, the PSX or Saturn (which both came out well after) really isn't a fair judgement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAYAman Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 Was there any decisions by the Tramiels that hampered the Jaguar? Any last minute changes to the hardware? Was there supposed to be a different Jag hardware wise and then budget constraints limited it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Was there any decisions by the Tramiels that hampered the Jaguar? Any last minute changes to the hardware? Was there supposed to be a different Jag hardware wise and then budget constraints limited it? If anything, budget constraints caused it to be released with a few major hardware flaws. Not sure how much it would have mattered had they been fixed though. Atari just did not have the budget or the respect to get many 3rd party developers on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I've also heard that the Jag was doing quite well in Europe but allocation was given preference in America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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