JAGUAR, 3DO, AND THE CDI

[JagCD]

 

When the games cost as much as a small house, they don't need a million hardware sales.

 

You clearly don't understand economies of scale. Because, actually.... SNK did need more sales.

Their game cartridges were wildly expensive to manufacture.

[JagCD]

Except for a while SNK were having success with the NeoGeo hardware, the Jag however was a disaster from day one.

 

Of all the consoles available around that period The jag had one of the worst overall libraries in terms of quality.

 

I disagree. I don't think their home console ever was successful (due to such low sales) The arcade cabinets are likely the only area where the Neo Geo was financially successful. When arcades started drying up, that's when it was over for SNK (2001).

 

I will say this -- Phoenix does make a good point, though. I think an original AES and a 160 in 1 cart is in my future.

Although, I'd bet he'd acknowledge that buying 150 original AES cartridges is probably impossible.

 

Seriously, AtariOrdead (okay you know a joke is coming)...... The Jaguar was wildly successful as a dental camera.

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

 

14 years and they never broke a million hardware sales globally for it. It's parent company went bankrupt. Neo Geo was a massive commercial failure.

 

Had SNK stayed out of hardware (and focused on software) -- they likely would have never collapsed. So Neo Geo was SNK's Jaguar.

 

Comparing it to the Jaguar's commercial success is like debating which is more pleasant: firing squad versus lethal injection.

Only on the Jaguar forum can a system that had 14 years of software support be considered a failure.

[AtariORdead]

I just don't get it TBH. I dont mind the Jag and have several games for mine. But it really does have some of the most rampant rabid fanboyism I have ever seen.

[JagCD]

Only on the Jaguar forum can a system that had 14 years of software support be considered a failure.

 

Only on the Jaguar forum? Also try articles on Tom's Hardware, Giant Bomb, Time Magazine, etc.

Tom's Hardware singled the Neo Geo out as the biggest failure of all time (yes, they considered

Jaguar somewhat more successful as #2..... even though they said the hardware was the

absolute worst)

 

I love my Neo Geo collection, but I also understand the reality/scale of its failure:

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-game-console-failures.php

http://techland.time.com/2010/11/04/top-10-failed-gaming-consoles/slide/neo-geo/

http://www.giantbomb.com/neo-geo/3045-25/

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/satire-toms-hardware-news-reviews,7883.html

 

It really doesn't bother me one way or the other. Some of my favorite consoles were

commercial flops (Dreamcast, Jaguar, ColecoVision)

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

 

Only on the Jaguar forum? Also try articles on Tom's Hardware, Giant Bomb, Time Magazine, etc.

Tom's Hardware singled the Neo Geo out as the biggest failure of all time (yes, they considered

Jaguar somewhat more successful as #2..... )

 

I love my Neo Geo collection, but I also understand the reality of its failure:

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-game-console-failures.php

http://techland.time.com/2010/11/04/top-10-failed-gaming-consoles/slide/neo-geo/

http://www.giantbomb.com/neo-geo/3045-25/

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/satire-toms-hardware-news-reviews,7883.html

Oh, toptenz.net thinks the Neo Geo was a failure? I must be wrong, as they are the go-to source for video gaming information. My apologies!

 

Also, did you even read the Tom's Hardware link?

 

 

This low rating for the Neo Geo is really more over my jealousy of not being able to own one.

 

Good day, sir.

[+madman]

I just don't get it TBH. I dont mind the Jag and have several games for mine. But it really does have some of the most rampant rabid fanboyism I have ever seen.

Amazing, isn't it?

[phoenixdownita]

The TomsHardware review is :

2. Atari Jaguar:
This is probably the worst gaming system ever made, but I have my own reasons for putting it number two. The Atari Jaguar was full of faults. Bad games, poor construction and questions of it really was 64-bit seemed to plague the Jaguar. I, on the other hand, always seem to dwell on the controller. The Jaguar's controller was the most insane controller I have ever seen. I am not a 100% sure on this, but I believe it had somewhere near 9,000 buttons. It was so beefy that you could kill anyone that questioned you for owning it. The Jaguar went on to end Atari's claim in the home gaming industry and left the company’s legacy in pieces.

1. Neo Geo:
If you were lucky enough to own one of these—I wasn't—you had to get your fill at an arcade. The Neo Geo had some of the most classic games such as Metal Slug, Fatal Fury and 2020 Super Baseball. The games looked great, they were fun and it the system was pretty well built. So what is the problem? The problem was the price to get your hands on one of the system. It cost over $600, and games were easily over $100 each! This low rating for the Neo Geo is really more over my jealousy of not being able to own one. SNK actually made a fairly good system. The Neo Geo has gone on to inspire game developers for the past 15 years and will continue that trend for the next 15.

Edited March 15, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[JagCD]

Oh, toptenz.net thinks the Neo Geo was a failure? I must be wrong, as they are the go-to source for video gaming information. My apologies!

 

Also, did you even read the Tom's Hardware link?

 

 

 

Good day, sir.

 

Yes, I read all of them. How many times did I mention the term unattainable previously. The bottom line is the Neo Geo was commercial failure that caused it parent company to collapse. SNK became the next Atari.

 

More or less -- you can substitute Dreamcast for the words Neo Geo in the Tom's Hardware article.... and end up in the exact same place. But to state that I'm the only one that threw around the term failure and Neo Geo.... It's downright laugable.

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[AtariORdead]

 

Yes, I read all of them. How many times did I mention the term unattainable previously. The bottom line is the Neo Geo was commercial failure that caused it parent company to collapse. SNK became the next Atari.

No Atari had actually become the next Atari. Several times over in fact.

[phoenixdownita]

NeoGeo did not kill SNK, SNK killed itself for not innovating.

At the time the AES came out and targeting a very niche market was SNK strategy and it worked well back then.

[+madman]

NeoGeo did not kill SNK, SNK killed itself for not innovating.

At the time the AES came out and targeting a very niche market was SNK strategy and it worked well back then.

I agree. It worked for 14 years, that's not a failure. Arcades died and MVS piracy became rampant, even with the later releases that were encrypted. It's like saying Blockbuster Video was a failure. No, they were successful until technology changed, Netflix and Redbox entered the market and video rental stores became a relic of the past.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Well, I guess it's easy to have a higher quality output -- when SNK was just releasing the same game with different graphics over and over again. Fatal Fury, Real Bout Fatal Fury, Samarai Shodown, World Heroes and Art of Fighting all had the same game engine with different graphics and subtle changes to the control schemes. That's roughly 25 releases that were just re-skins of the exact same product. Even Jack Tramiel wasn't that cheap.

 

Calling the Neo Geo library diverse is laughable to someone who actually collects the system. There are some gems, but seriously.... All the games are very similar and have a distinct SNK feel. That is probably the appeal to many who actually collect the system (and not forming opinions on hypothetical ownership). I don't think you understand the system. SNK consoles are like Nintendo consoles.... They have a narrow (not diverse) genre of titles that they are famous for -- Nintendo does kid's games well and SNK did shooters/fighting games extremely well. Is this really a revelation? This is something that has been pretty damn obvious since about 1995. A Playstation 2 -- now that's a system with a diverse library. Buying a game for the Neo Geo is a lot like buying a film by Quentin Tarantino -- you already know what you're getting and you like the genre/style.

 

That's an excellent analogy. Because if you don't like Tarantino films, then you'll probably hate every one he ever made. Same for the Neo Geo. If a buyer/collector doesn't like shooters or fighting games, it's probably not the system for them.

 

Again, "reasonably diverse" is a fair descriptor of the Neo Geo's library (and not that it matters, but this is from someone who has a large AES collection, as well as an MVS board and multi-cart). It's only missing a few key genres, and, more importantly, if nothing more than as a by product of nearly all games being designed for the arcade environment first, most are quite polished and extremely playable. It's an odd duck of a system to be sure and certainly a true niche of a home system, but there were genuine benefits to the high price of entry. With all of that in mind, I still maintain comparing the Neo Geo to pretty much anything else is rather fruitless, however, because it really was its own thing, in many ways only classifiable with something like a Vectrex, i.e., a unique system/business model that has never been exactly duplicated before or since. As such, it just doesn't make much sense as a platform to compare against the Jaguar (and, let's face it, outside of the Jaguar faithful, few would prefer the Jaguar to the Neo Geo).

 

The most valid comparison for the Jaguar is really with the 3DO as in the OT (moreso than with the CD-i), with arguably the best way the Jaguar was competitive was in having a far lower initial cost of entry (that gap lessened over time with the successive price drops) and mostly a game-centric, rather than mixed media (edutainment, etc.), library (although with over 200 more titles on the 3DO, even taking away the multimedia "fluff," there are still a lot more games to choose from). What's interesting is that for a variety of reasons, the 3DO has a lower cost of entry these days for modern day collectors than the Jaguar (the Neo Geo of course, from the console to the software, still probably has the highest overall cost for modern day collecting).

[Rubio80]

 

Again, "reasonably diverse" is a fair descriptor of the Neo Geo's library (and not that it matters, but this is from someone who has a large AES collection, as well as an MVS board and multi-cart). It's only missing a few key genres, and, more importantly, if nothing more than as a by product of nearly all games being designed for the arcade environment first, most are quite polished and extremely playable. It's an odd duck of a system to be sure and certainly a true niche of a home system, but there were genuine benefits to the high price of entry. With all of that in mind, I still maintain comparing the Neo Geo to pretty much anything else is rather fruitless, however, because it really was its own thing, in many ways only classifiable with something like a Vectrex, i.e., a unique system/business model that has never been exactly duplicated before or since. As such, it just doesn't make much sense as a platform to compare against the Jaguar (and, let's face it, outside of the Jaguar faithful, few would prefer the Jaguar to the Neo Geo).

 

The most valid comparison for the Jaguar is really with the 3DO as in the OT (moreso than with the CD-i), with arguably the best way the Jaguar was competitive was in having a far lower initial cost of entry (that gap lessened over time with the successive price drops) and mostly a game-centric, rather than mixed media (edutainment, etc.), library (although with over 200 more titles on the 3DO, even taking away the multimedia "fluff," there are still a lot more games to choose from). What's interesting is that for a variety of reasons, the 3DO has a lower cost of entry these days for modern day collectors than the Jaguar (the Neo Geo of course, from the console to the software, still probably has the highest overall cost for modern day collecting).

This post is objectively one of the best in this hilarious thread.

 

JagCD, you're correct when you say the Neo games are mainly fighters but there are so many good non fighter games it should be pointless to make a list of them, specially when you're saying you know its library... Also, collecting fighters for the Neo Geo CD is not the best idea unless you enjoy loosing hours of your life with loading times and playing downgraded games with less animations, loading times between rounds and tiny sprites don't you think? Fighters = cartdridge, yes or yes, the rest in CD are ok.

 

I am one of the people who enjoy playing sport games and non fighters in the Neo Geo (weirdo? maybe!) but I think it is pointless to try to make you understand your opinion is just that, your opinion. I would love to see in the Jaguar library high quality games like Neo Turf Masters, Baseball Stars series, Soccer Brawl, Sidekicks series, Windjammers, Metal Slug, Shock Troopers and a long etc...

 

Also, for example, comparing SkyHammer to Pulstar doesn't make so much sense, yes, you shoot things and baddies in both but besides of that are completely different games, you can compare it better with Raiden or Trevor McLOL.

 

BTW, I also have a quite decent Neo Geo collection (80+ cart games between MVS kits and home carts, some CD titles too) and I own all SNK systems, also a full Jaguar cart set and some JagCD games, I think I know both systems and their libraries very well.

 

Regarding the Neo Geo being successful, as madman says, 14 years receiving games continuously can't be called a failure. SNK made their main profit with the MVS, the home console was just a bonus and a way to make more profit with the same games, the ROMS are exactly the same with the difference of the size of the boards to make them non compatible. A MVS kit cost back then 3-4 times more than a home cart, just remember that. Does Ferrari needs to sell so many cars as Ford to be profitable and successful? I think they don't.

 

Now on topic (!), I think the 3DO has a better library than the Jaguar, superb racing games, top fighters, RPGs, sport games... but I enjoy playing them, both consoles have fun games.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Rubio80

[JagCD]

BTW, I also have a quite decent Neo Geo collection (80+ cart games between MVS kits and home carts, some CD titles too) and I own all SNK systems, also a full Jaguar cart set and some JagCD games, I think I know both systems and their libraries very well.

 

Regarding the Neo Geo being successful, as madman says, 14 years receiving games continuously can't be called a failure.

 

Again, you are both trying to rewrite history to state the Neo Geo wasn't a commercial failure. It clearly was. SNK collapsed ultimately from the failure of its Neo Geo hardware. There has been hardware with far longer lives that have sold millions more in hardware than Neo Geo which are still considered commercial failures like the Sega Master System and Sega Dreamcast. Perhaps the scale of its failure was smaller compared to machines like Jaguar or CD32.... But ultimately the Neo Geo, Amiga CD32, Dreamcast and Jaguar were all responsible for the ultimate financial implosions of their respective companies = that is the definition of a commercial failure. Atari, Commodore, SNK Playmore and Sega have all bounced back in one form or another (with 3 out of the 4 now focusing on software exclusively).

 

If I had to rate my Top 20 favorite consoles of all time -- the Neo Geo and Jaguar make my list. Probably about 70% of my favorites were commerical failures (I really liked the Atari 5200). It doesn't change how much I like any of them, but I just think I have a better grasp on the reality of the commercial environment in which they existed.

Edited March 16, 2015 by JagCD

[JagCD]

I agree. It worked for 14 years, that's not a failure. Arcades died and MVS piracy became rampant, even with the later releases that were encrypted. It's like saying Blockbuster Video was a failure. No, they were successful until technology changed, Netflix and Redbox entered the market and video rental stores became a relic of the past.

 

You are again rewriting history if you think Blockbuster Video wasn't a failure.

BLOCKBUSTER WAS A TOTAL AND UTTER FAILURE FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS.

 

Blockbuster was given the opportunity to own both Netflix and Redbox -- and they passed on both of them. Both of those tiny companies

came out of nowhere and gutted Blockbuster into nothing. Blockbuster failed so epically, their story will be taught for decades at business

schools worldwide. Blockbuster's lack of understanding for future market trends doomed them.

 

http://variety.com/2013/biz/news/epic-fail-how-blockbuster-could-have-owned-netflix-1200823443/

 

It just seems like you are completely out of touch with what an actual commercial success looks like.

Edited March 16, 2015 by JagCD

[+madman]

 

Again, you are both trying to rewrite history to state the Neo Geo wasn't a commercial failure. It clearly was. SNK collapsed ultimately from the failure of its Neo Geo hardware. There has been hardware with far longer lives that have sold millions more in hardware than Neo Geo which are still considered commercial failures like the Sega Master System and Sega Dreamcast.

Please explain what part of 14 years of support is a failure.

 

The Dreamcast and SMS had longer lives than the Neo Geo? The DC was released in 1999. You're telling me games were commercially released for the system until last year? Wow.

[JagCD]

Please explain what part of 14 years of support is a failure.

 

The Dreamcast and SMS had longer lives than the Neo Geo? The DC was released in 1999. You're telling me games were commercially released for the system until last year? Wow.

 

The Sega Master System was supported from 1986 through 2008 in Brazil -- so yes, it did live considerably longer than the Neo Geo

The Dreamcast sold 10 million consoles worldwide, that's about 10 times the # of hardware sold of SNK's Neo Geo.

 

Both of them are still considered commercial failures by most analysts.

Edited March 16, 2015 by JagCD

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Again, you are both trying to rewrite history to state the Neo Geo wasn't a commercial failure. It clearly was. SNK collapsed ultimately from the failure of its Neo Geo hardware. There has been hardware with far longer lives that have sold millions more in hardware than Neo Geo which are still considered commercial failures like the Sega Master System and Sega Dreamcast. Perhaps the scale of its failure was smaller compared to machines like Jaguar or CD32.... But ultimately the Neo Geo, Amiga CD32, Dreamcast and Jaguar were all responsible for the ultimate financial implosions of their respective companies = that is the definition of a commercial failure. Atari, Commodore, SNK Playmore and Sega have all bounced back in one form or another (with 3 out of the 4 now focusing on software exclusively).

 

If I had to rate my Top 20 favorite consoles of all time -- the Neo Geo and Jaguar make my list. Probably about 70% of my favorites were commerical failures (I really liked the Atari 5200). It doesn't change how much I like any of them, but I just think I have a better grasp on the reality of the commercial environment in which they existed.

 

Sorry, it's not that simple. One platform does not a failed company make except when said company created one single platform, e.g., RDI with the Halcyon, Tiger Telematics with the Gizmodo, etc. It's usually a whole series of decisions that make a company ultimately fail. The CD32 didn't kill Commodore, the Dreamcast didn't kill Sega, etc. It was all that led up to and beyond those systems that killed the companies. Heck, even the monumental failure of the Jaguar was not what ultimately killed that version of Atari. As we've discussed in countless other threads, there were few win scenarios for Atari, no matter how successful the Jaguar might have been.

 

As for classifying a console as a commercial failure, that too has considerable nuance and depends a lot on the time period we're talking about. Post-Crash, with each passing year, the bar for success has more or less been set ever higher. Then of course you have systems like the Dreamcast that sold quite well, but were pulled from the market due to the parent company's financial issues. It's hard to classify the Dreamcast a failure by most metrics, particularly in the same discussion as systems like the Jaguar and CD-i.

[phoenixdownita]

JagCD, ultimately every thing humans do is bound to disappear for ever, that does not make them all failures.

 

Also every single human dies, so that should make him a failure as well as no matter what he couldn't change his/her ultimate fate.

 

More on topic the last piece of HW a company produces is not automatically what makes it fail, the Dreamcast was great both HW and SW but Sega messed up all the way back to 32x, MegaCD, Saturn to the point it had no more time/money/resources to fight.

 

The Jag had little to do by itself with the failure of Atari, the company was betting on "miracle consoles" so it's a crap shot anyway and yes it so happen the Jag was not the "miracle" they were hoping it would be. Contrast that with the Nintendo and the Wii, the company had a foot on the grave and the other on a banana peel and yet it got the miracle gimmick at the right time allowing them 5 more year in the market (with 100M sales, insane) .

 

The MVS was a commercial success, SNK made money out of the AES as well, after 8 years of not evolving the platform and hoping that the Hyper NG 64 was their lucky shot SNK dragged along with nothing new by just milking the cows it had.

 

Blockbuster was a tremendous success up and until the online systems came about, then it's all their fault, but remembering them just for their final failure is no more wrong than say remembering you (or any other human being, say Einstein or Gandhi or the hottie next door) for all the feces that you excreted during your life, it's hardly a fair measure.

Edited March 16, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[JagCD]

As for classifying a console as a commercial failure, that too has considerable nuance and depends a lot on the time period we're talking about. Post-Crash, with each passing year, the bar for success has more or less been set ever higher. Then of course you have systems like the Dreamcast that sold quite well, but were pulled from the market due to the parent company's financial issues. It's hard to classify the Dreamcast a failure by most metrics, particularly in the same discussion as systems like the Jaguar and CD-i.

 

That's nosense. Commercial failures are very easy to identify. If a product was largely responsible for a bankruptcy, it can be clearly identified. While the quality of games and libraries are clearly subjective, financial results and sales are concrete. Dreamcast was clearly a commercial failure -- otherwise Sega would still be making hardware. Again, cut and dry. 10 Million in hardware sales is decent, but you need 50 million to stay relevant nowadays for third parties.

[+madman]

 

You are again rewriting history if you think Blockbuster Video wasn't a failure.

BLOCKBUSTER WAS A TOTAL AND UTTER FAILURE FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS.

 

Blockbuster was given the opportunity to own both Netflix and Redbox -- and they passed on both of them. Both of those tiny companies

came out of nowhere and gutted Blockbuster into nothing. Blockbuster failed so epically, their story will be taught for decades at business

schools worldwide. Blockbuster's lack of understanding for future market trends doomed them.

 

http://variety.com/2013/biz/news/epic-fail-how-blockbuster-could-have-owned-netflix-1200823443/

 

It just seems like you are completely out of touch with what an actual commercial success looks like.

I now see you're trolling, but I'll play along. So in your opinion, anything that eventually fails wasn't a commercial success? You ignore Blockbusters 20 or so years of financial success because the market changed? They were profitable with tens of thousands of employees. Let me guess, rotary phones were a failure? Cassette tapes were a failure. CRTs were a failure too, right?

[+CyranoJ]

I now see you're trolling, but I'll play along. So in your opinion, anything that eventually fails wasn't a commercial success? You ignore Blockbusters 20 or so years of financial success because the market changed? They were profitable with tens of thousands of employees. Let me guess, rotary phones were a failure? Cassette tapes were a failure. CRTs were a failure too, right?

 

This thread is a failure.

[+madman]

 

The Sega Master System was supported from 1986 through 2008 in Brazil -- so yes, it did live considerably longer than the Neo Geo

 

Which games were released after 2000 on the SMS?

[+CyranoJ]

And 2600 games are still being released... Ask Atari how that's keeping them afloat