JAGUAR, 3DO, AND THE CDI

[JagCD]

As I said elsewhere on here, I appreciate the Jag for what it is. Not for what it could've been. Not to speculate about what Atari could've done to make the Jag successful. Not to say the Jag was better than every other system of the time. And I certainly don't defend it saying the games look great on a shelf or that the cart port was accessible because it didn't have a dust cover. I have a large Jag collection and I enjoy parts of it, but I'm certainly not under the delusion that it's the most underrated system ever or that it's better than the Neo Geo.

 

It you aren't into Fighting Games -- the Neo Geo is practically worthless. And this is coming from someone who owns 3 different Neo Geos consoles.

 

IMO the Jaguar has the superior game library simply because it has some many more genres covered.

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[AtariORdead]

 

It you aren't into Fighting Games -- the Neo Geo is practically worthless. And this is coming from someone who owns 3 different Neo Geos consoles.

 

IMO the Jaguar has the superior game library simply because it has some many more genres covered.

Have to disagree, I could probably name 25 games of the top of my head that I would like on the Neo Geo.

[NeoGeoNinja]

It you aren't into Fighting Games -- the Neo Geo is practically worthless.

 

Time to hit the doctors for that anti-sentience cream:

 

Your arsehole has started talking. Again.

Edited March 15, 2015 by NeoGeoNinja

[JagChris]

 

Time to hit the doctors for that anti-sentience cream:

 

Your arsehole has started talking. Again.

 

Easy now. Let's not get all upset worshipping dead consoles. It's just an opinion.

[Albert]

Time to hit the doctors for that anti-sentience cream:

 

Your arsehole has started talking. Again.

He's entitled to his opinion the same as you are yours. If you don't have something positive to contribute to the thread, please refrain from posting.

 

..Al

[NeoGeoNinja]

He's entitled to his opinion the same as you are yours. If you don't have something positive to contribute to the thread, please refrain from posting.

 

..Al

 

Fair enough. But my opinion, by contrast, stands. The guy who goes by the name of "JagCD" says the NeoGeo is worthless if you're not into fighting games. The guy with the name "NeoGeo" in his name tells "JagCD" an objective truth laden/veiled as a cheeky insult

 

Plenty... of non-fighting game goodness on the NeoGeo, thus, the suggested requirement for aforementioned... "ointment".

 

Not all contributions can be positive I'm afraid, thus my need to respond in the first place. Two wrongs do NOT make a right, but JagCD does have the right to defend his own stance on the matter without the need for others to intervene

[AtariORdead]

Loads of great non fighting games on Neo Geo.

 

In fact I dare say there is probably close to as many decent non fighting games in the neogeos library than the Jaguar actually had games released in total on cartridge.

Edited March 15, 2015 by AtariORdead

[JagCD]

 

Time to hit the doctors for that anti-sentience cream:

 

Your arsehole has started talking. Again.

 

Again, I own a Neo Geo CD, Neo Geo Pocket and Neo Geo X.

The bottom line is -- if you take the fighting games out of their lineup,

there is almost nothing left.

 

Racing games are a great example (my favorite genre). Atari Karts

is a solid racer (even if it's not up to Mario Kart standards). Plus

we've got Super Burnout (which is way better than Riding Spirits

on the Neo Geo). Power Drive Rally may be a straight port for the

Jaguar, but it was also a damn good one. Even Val' D'isere was a

pretty good racer. Name an awesome racing game on the Neo Geo.

Thrash Rally? Wasn't as good as Power Drive.

 

Name an awesome FPS like Alien Vs. Predator or Doom on the Neo.

The Neo Geo may have been an awesome machine -- but it's got

some huge holes in its game library which the Jaguar covers

reasonably well.

 

I know there are more games that I play on the Jaguar than the Neo.

BTW, I do realize the Jaguar doesn't have a platformer as good as

Sonic the Hedgehog on the Neo Geo pocket. The Neo Geo Pocket

did get more game releases (about 83) than the Jaguar, but about

10 you had to suffer through Black and White graphics. I'm just

being realistic. The Neo Geo really wasn't that successful either

back in the day -- especially when the AES was overpriced at

$649. I think the Pocket sold in better numbers, but still nothing

to call home about.

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[JagCD]

Loads of great non fighting games on Neo Geo.

 

In fact I dare say there is probably close to as many decent non fighting games in the neogeos library than the Jaguar actually had games released in total on cartridge.

 

Again, name them..... After Nam 1975 and Metal Slug..... It's a pretty weak library. I am not a fan of lame arcady sports titles (Golf and Baseball Stars). Neo Geo did have some great space shooters, though (although I think the TurboGraphx/PC Engine had better ones during that generation).

 

Jaguar did have great exclusives like Skyhammer, Defender 2000, Missile Command 3D and Alien Vs. Predator -- which there is no equivalent on the Neo.

 

I absolutely love the Neo Geo -- but there was a ton of shovelware titles on that system (just like the Jaguar).... I mean seriously, Stakes Winner? Nothing like a Horse Racing video game that makes me want to play my video game console. What about Quiz King of Fighters? Seriously, a quiz game? What a piece of crap.... I'd rather torture myself with more Checkered Flag.

 

And again -- I own both of these discussed game consoles.... I'm not some YouTube retard who formed an opinion without actually playing the systems being discussed. I will say this -- I absolutely love the Neo Geo arcade sticks (for the AES mostly..... the Neo Geo X version is a pale imitation) and they completely blow away any control pad the Jaguar ever got....

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[AtariORdead]

 

Again, name them..... After Nam 1975 and Metal Slug..... It's pretty weak. I am not a fan of lame arcady sports titles (Golf and Baseball Stars).

Jaguar did have great games like Skyhammer, Defender 2000 and Alien Vs. Predator -- which there is no equivalent on the Neo.

Just because you don't like them does not mean they are not good games and other people will not like them.

 

Neo Turfmasters, Soccer Brawl, Baseball stars, Super Baseball 2020, Soccer Sidekicks 1,2, and 3 are all immensly enjoyable arcade sports games.

 

Skyhammer is not that great, and I would rather play, Sonic wings, Ghost pilots, Strikers 1945, phehistoric isle, pulstar etc than defender 2000

 

Plus I love the Metal Slug games of which there are around 6, Nam 75, Shock troopers, Burning Fight, Magician lord, Top Hunter sengoku etc.

 

Plus I love overhead and isometric racing games and Neo drift out is one of my fave games, and I also love Thrash rally and overtop.

 

Now the Neo Geo is not my favorite system at all, in fact it would not even make top 5, but it has loads of games I would like to own if I had one and to say it has nothing outside of fighting games is ignorant in the extreme.

 

 

You really would think Jag owners of all people wjo have to put up with all sorts of ignorant crap said about it to be less likely to pull this crap about other consoles.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

It you aren't into Fighting Games -- the Neo Geo is practically worthless. And this is coming from someone who owns 3 different Neo Geos consoles.

 

IMO the Jaguar has the superior game library simply because it has some many more genres covered.

 

I disagree as well. Even with its arcade-centric nature, it has almost every console genre covered, save for pure RPGs, strategy games, and FPS's. Otherwise, it's easy enough to argue that the Neo Geo platform fares better than the Jaguar in genres like sports, racers, shooters, side scrollers, beat'em ups, puzzlers, etc. In some of those areas it's a wash, in other areas it's not even close. It doesn't prove much other than maybe the relative weakness of the Jaguar's library and that the Neo Geo platform was incredibly well supported despite being an arcade platform. What's interesting is that the Neo Geo platform kind of points to one path that Atari could have taken with the Jaguar, because there's almost nothing 3D on it. It's 2D all the way, with many over-the-top 2D-centric effects in a lot of games, like liberal scaling and over-sized sprites. The Jaguar would have done well to have had some "outrageous" 2D stuff on it that showed off some of its possibilities in a better light. As always, that comes down to the developers and the relative lack of resources and/or talent. Whatever you think of SNK, they certainly had in-house talent that knew how to take advantage of their platform (of course, they had unusually high cartridge capacities to work with since money was no real object, so there's that, but then again there's no guarantee that with more capacity we would have seen a whole lot better on the Jaguar).

[Albert]

Not all contributions can be positive I'm afraid, thus my need to respond in the first place. Two wrongs do NOT make a right, but JagCD does have the right to defend his own stance on the matter without the need for others to intervene

Well, when I say "positive contributions", I generally mean posts that will help move the thread forward. Insults definitely don't help in that regard. Everyone's list of games they like and dislike on a particular system is going to vary. In this particular example, I probably would have countered with a list of games that I enjoy which are NOT fighters. I am personally not familiar enough with the Neo Geo library to make such a contribution, though.

 

..Al

[JagCD]

 

Easy now. Let's not get all upset worshipping dead consoles. It's just an opinion.

 

An opinion with a heck of a lot of detail as to why I formed it.

[JagCD]

Neo Turfmasters, Soccer Brawl, Baseball stars, Super Baseball 2020, Soccer Sidekicks 1,2, and 3 are all immensly enjoyable arcade sports games.

 

Skyhammer is not that great, and I would rather play, Sonic wings, Ghost pilots, Strikers 1945, phehistoric isle, pulstar etc than defender 2000

 

Plus I love the Metal Slug games of which there are around 6, Nam 75, Shock troopers, Burning Fight, Magician lord, Top Hunter sengoku etc.

 

Plus I love overhead and isometric racing games and Neo drift out is one of my fave games, and I also love Thrash rally and overtop.

 

Now the Neo Geo is not my favorite system at all, in fact it would not even make top 5, but it has loads of games I would like to own if I had one and to say it has nothing outside of fighting games is ignorant in the extreme.

 

You really would think Jag owners of all people wjo have to put up with all sorts of ignorant crap said about it to be less likely to pull this crap about other consoles.

 

So let me get this right.... A system for which they milked the exact same game (as you already acknowledged) for 6 - 8 sequels a piece (Metal Slug and don't forget King of Fighters)..... Has the better game library? Sure, yeah.... I'm certainly the one saying the "ignorant crap." /sarcasm off

 

And let's face it -- arcade style sports titles are disposable. Nobody plays them. So it's a large portion of the Neo Geo library that almost no one wants. I noticed how you glossed over the fact that SNK went bankrupt in 2001 because this arcade market dried up. Otherwise, Tecmo would still be cranking out their awesome arcade sports titles, too. The only sports titles that have endured are the simulations (Madden, MLB: The Show, NBA Live).

 

BTW, Power Drive Rally on the Jaguar is superior to both Neo Drift and Thrash.

 

Talk about Apples to Oranges, too. Skyhammer (like G-Police) is not even remotely the same genre as Sonic Wings or Ghost Pilots.

 

Let's look at the numbers. A total of 98 games were released for my Neo Geo CD.... But just look at how many times they basically recycled the exact same games: 4 Fatal Fury's, 3 (More) Real Bout Fatal Fury's, 4 Art of Fightings, 9 King of Fighters, 4 Samurai Showdowns, 3 Super Sidekicks and 4 World Heroes.

 

WTF? 31 Games are virtually just recycled over and over again out of the 98. Atari never pulled that garbage. Do I need to even mention how many of these games are fighting games?

 

At least the Jaguar / Jaguar CD got an actual 82 games released (and not 10 sequels to 8 games). Sure, I'm a very opinionated person..... But I do make a pretty damn good point.

 

Here is the list of released games for the Neo Geo CD (notice just how many sequels -- it was ridiculous):

http://www.ebay.com/gds/SNK-Neo-Geo-CD-Complete-Japanese-release-game-list-/10000000008806733/g.html

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[AtariORdead]

 

So let me get this right.... A system for which they milked the exact same game (as you already acknowledged) for 6 - 8 sequels a piece (Metal Slug and don't forget King of Fighters)..... Has the better game library? Sure, yeah.... I'm certainly the one saying the "ignorant crap." /sarcasm off

 

And let's face it -- arcade style sports titles are disposable. Nobody plays them. So it's a large portion of the Neo Geo library that almost no one wants. I noticed how you glossed over the fact that SNK went bankrupt in 2001 because this arcade market dried up. Otherwise, Tecmo would still be cranking out their awesome arcade sports titles, too. The only sports titles that have lasted are the simulations (Madden, MLB: The Show).

 

BTW, Power Drive Rally on the Jaguar is superior to both Neo Drift and Thrash.

Are you losing the plot or something, All I said was that the Neo Geo had a lot of titles that people like beyond the fighting games. Why are you getting upset.

 

Whats SNK going bankrupt because the market dried up got to do with anything, has that suddenly made the games play crap. I never glossed over it so much as just not brought it up because its, well its irrelevant.

 

As for the library, sorry but lets get realistic here, the NEOGEO has a much better diverse library and the quality output on average is far higher than the jags. Thats not even an issue.

Edited March 15, 2015 by AtariORdead

[Bill Loguidice]

The Neo Geo has something like 150+ titles, while the Jaguar has 80+ (neither counting homebrews). Even with marginally improved sequels on the former "padding the numbers," we're still talking a rather large gap. As was also stated, the average quality of each game on the Neo Geo is also rather higher, with few genuine stinkers. What does all of that prove? Nothing, really, other than that one platform was taken superb advantage of and the other not so much, which is the story of the Jaguar as a platform.

[JagCD]

The Neo Geo has something like 150+ titles, while the Jaguar has 80+ (neither counting homebrews). Even with marginally improved sequels on the former "padding the numbers," we're still talking a rather large gap. As was also stated, the average quality of each game on the Neo Geo is also rather higher, with few genuine stinkers. What does all of that prove? Nothing, really, other than that one platform was taken superb advantage of and the other not so much, which is the story of the Jaguar as a platform.

 

Negative, we are now talking about 2 different consoles. You are referring to the unattainable AES -- and I am referring to the later CD system which is actually attainable to most collectors (which is how I own one). The Neo Geo CD system only got 98 titles. As I pointed out, probably 30 to 40 of them are just straight recycles / sequels. So the Jaguar/Jag CD likely got more actual releases than it did.

 

And I think saying the Neo Geo was taken superb advantage of is a stretch. SNK did outlast Atari, but the bottom line is both companies ended up collapsing at some point.

 

I think SNK milking the same game for 6-9 sequels (like Metal Slug / King of Fighters) instead of creating actual new games is what lead to their collapse.

 

Personally, I'd like to meet 1 person who owns all 150+ titles for the original Neo Geo (AES) -- because that would have required an investment between $15,000 to $25,000 just for the game cartridges. But that is probably a unicorn undertaking that only a millionaire could probably pull off.

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[JagCD]

As for the library, sorry but lets get realistic here, the NEOGEO has a much better diverse library and the quality output on average is far higher than the jags. Thats not even an issue.

 

Well, I guess it's easy to have a higher quality output -- when SNK was just releasing the same game with different graphics over and over again. Fatal Fury, Real Bout Fatal Fury, Samarai Shodown, World Heroes and Art of Fighting all had the same game engine with different graphics and subtle changes to the control schemes. That's roughly 25 releases that were just re-skins of the exact same product. Even Jack Tramiel wasn't that cheap.

 

Calling the Neo Geo library diverse is laughable to someone who actually collects the system. There are some gems, but seriously.... All the games are very similar and have a distinct SNK feel. That is probably the appeal to many who actually collect the system (and not forming opinions on hypothetical ownership). I don't think you understand the system. SNK consoles are like Nintendo consoles.... They have a narrow (not diverse) genre of titles that they are famous for -- Nintendo does kid's games well and SNK did shooters/fighting games extremely well. Is this really a revelation? This is something that has been pretty damn obvious since about 1995. A Playstation 2 -- now that's a system with a diverse library. Buying a game for the Neo Geo is a lot like buying a film by Quentin Tarantino -- you already know what you're getting and you like the genre/style.

 

That's an excellent analogy. Because if you don't like Tarantino films, then you'll probably hate every one he ever made. Same for the Neo Geo. If a buyer/collector doesn't like shooters or fighting games, it's probably not the system for them.

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[AtariORdead]

 

Well, I guess it's easy to have a higher quality output -- when SNK was just releasing the same game with different graphics over and over again. Fatal Fury, Real Bout Fatal Fury, Samarai Shodown, World Heroes and Art of Fighting all had the same game engine with different graphics and subtle changes to the control schemes. That's roughly 25 releases that were just re-skins of the exact same product. Even Jack Tramiel wasn't that cheap.

 

Calling the Neo Geo library diverse is laughable to someone who actually collects the system. There are some gems, but seriously.... All the games are very similar and have a distinct SNK feel. That is probably the appeal to many who actually collect the system (and not forming opinions on hypothetical ownership). I don't think you understand the system. SNK consoles are like Nintendo consoles.... They have a narrow (not diverse) genre of titles that they are famous for -- Nintendo does kid's games well and SNK did shooters/fighting games extremely well. Is this really a revelation? This is something that has been pretty damn obvious since about 1995. A Playstation 2 -- now that's a system with a diverse library. Buying a game for the Neo Geo is a lot like buying a film by Quentin Tarantino -- you already know what you're getting and you like the genre/style.

 

That's an excellent analogy. Because if you don't like Tarantino films, then you'll probably hate every one he every made. Same for the Neo Geo. If a buyer/collector doesn't like shooters or fighting games, it's probably not the system for them.

 

 

Oh ok I can do that, if we are just going to stereotype then fine, Neo Geo is only shooters/fighters, and Nintendo consoles only have Kids games ( blatently not true, but hey whatever )

 

So Atari must = handful of decent games conpleteley drowned out by substandard ports and clones or unfinished substandard games that flooded the system.

Edited March 15, 2015 by AtariORdead

[phoenixdownita]

I was debating getting a 7800, but maybe il get this cdi thing given this debate. Already have 3do and jaguar.

About the CDi I would recommend you acquire it later on, it's expensive to get decent controllers and the light gun, and you need to appreciate FMV games (shooter on rails on the CDi are always FMV based).

 

The 7800 is cheaper to acquire and likely, compared to the other 8 bits, quite enjoyable, nothing mind blowing but fun nonetheless.

 

I acquired the CDi as one of the last consoles and as I didn't expect much and had some leftover dispensable income to pay for the outrageous prices for a decent controller and the gun I was pleasantly surprised. The rest of the genres (non FMV/adventures) do not fare too well, they are curiosities, mildly entertaining, but nothing you would care to play extensively (again with the exception of a couple of titles).

Edited March 15, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+madman]

The Neo Geo really wasn't that successful either

back in the day

That must explain why games were made for it for 14 years. What a complete failure of a system compared to the Jaguar and of course the all powerful Jag CD.

[JagCD]

That must explain why games were made for it for 14 years. What a complete failure of a system compared to the Jaguar and of course the all powerful Jag CD.

 

14 years and they never broke a million hardware sales globally for it. It's parent company went bankrupt. Neo Geo was a massive commercial failure.

 

Had SNK stayed out of hardware (and focused on software) -- they likely would have never collapsed. So Neo Geo was SNK's Jaguar.

 

Comparing it to the Jaguar's commercial success is like debating which is more pleasant: firing squad versus lethal injection.

Edited March 15, 2015 by JagCD

[+CyranoJ]

 

14 years and they never broke a million hardware sales globally for it. It's parent company went bankrupt. Neo Geo was a massive commercial failure.

 

Had SNK stayed out of hardware (and focused on software) -- they likely would have never collapsed. So Neo Geo was SNK's Jaguar.

 

Comparing it to the Jaguar's commercial success is like debating which is more pleasant: firing squad versus lethal injection.

 

When the games cost as much as a small house, they don't need a million hardware sales.

[phoenixdownita]

Well, I guess it's easy to have a higher quality output -- when SNK was just releasing the same game with different graphics over and over again. Fatal Fury, Real Bout Fatal Fury, Samarai Shodown, World Heroes and Art of Fighting all had the same game engine with different graphics and subtle changes to the control schemes. That's roughly 25 releases that were just re-skins of the exact same product. Even Jack Tramiel wasn't that cheap.

 

Calling the Neo Geo library diverse is laughable to someone who actually collects the system. There are some gems, but seriously.... All the games are very similar and have a distinct SNK feel. That is probably the appeal to many who actually collect the system (and not forming opinions on hypothetical ownership). I don't think you understand the system. SNK consoles are like Nintendo consoles.... They have a narrow (not diverse) genre of titles that they are famous for -- Nintendo does kid's games well and SNK did shooters/fighting games extremely well. Is this really a revelation? This is something that has been pretty damn obvious since about 1995. A Playstation 2 -- now that's a system with a diverse library. Buying a game for the Neo Geo is a lot like buying a film by Quentin Tarantino -- you already know what you're getting and you like the genre/style.

 

That's an excellent analogy. Because if you don't like Tarantino films, then you'll probably hate every one he ever made. Same for the Neo Geo. If a buyer/collector doesn't like shooters or fighting games, it's probably not the system for them.

 

You have to admit though that 50% of the Jag library is composed of so so attempts at proto 3D games that the console was ill equipped to support to begin with, some of them "can be played" but are far from being technical marvels.

 

Also your experience on the NeoGeo-CD is rendered bitter by the fact that even if you did like fighters the loading times for those is off putting.

The AES is not "unattainable" and with an MVS to AES converter + the 161-in-1 multi you get to experience 98 unique MVS games (25% of which is still fighters mind you), which is not bad at all for the price. At that point you can even enjoy MVS carts directly. Alternatively a CMVS can be a better starting point if you care to collect originals as it's MVS all the way

 

Collecting for Jag is not exactly cheap either, I had to cough 70US$ for Atari Karts, I was about to do even worse for Rayman but I stopped myself .... if a multi or a flash based solution was available I'd go that route no regrets/doubts or moral conundrums. BTW I bought the JagCD as a curiosity as well and only used CDR so far, none of the 13 gems kept my interest for long, some a little longer than others but apart maybe 2 nothing really I would want to actually buy.

 

I am not saying that collecting for NeoGeo is cheap, just that is not as expensive as it used to be and that there are cheaper way around playing at least part of the library.

[AtariORdead]

 

14 years and they never broke a million hardware sales globally for it. It's parent company went bankrupt. Neo Geo was a massive commercial failure.

 

Had SNK stayed out of hardware (and focused on software) -- they likely would have never collapsed. So Neo Geo was SNK's Jaguar.

 

Comparing it to the Jaguar's commercial success is like debating which is more pleasant: firing squad versus lethal injection.

Except for a while SNK were having success with the NeoGeo hardware, the Jag however was a disaster from day one.

 

Of all the consoles available around that period The jag had one of the worst overall libraries in terms of quality.