RetroN 77

[ColecoJoe]

 

Edit: It might not make anyone rich, but it does not seem to be an absurd idea either. What seems absurd is buying multiple inferior systems because they are $50, so why not, rather than one superior system that is $200?

 

Because they can probably sell more units at $50 than one "do it all" unit at $200 .. once they buy that they won't buy anything else .. you gotta keep them coming back

[dj_convoy]

That's pretty literally why there's a new Flashback every year.

[ColecoJoe]

That's pretty literally why there's a new Flashback every year.

 

And because we buy one or two or three every year, they keep releasing every year. Maybe if people stopped buying these we would get our holy grail all in one system!

[Swami]

 

Because they can probably sell more units at $50 than one "do it all" unit at $200 .. once they buy that they won't buy anything else .. you gotta keep them coming back

Obviously, ATGames and Hyperkin feel this way, along with almost all other companies, but I am still hoping CollectorVision and Opcode's efforts will inspire someone to a similar mission for the VCS.

[Swami]

 

And because we buy one or two or three every year, they keep releasing every year. Maybe if people stopped buying these we would get our holy grail all in one system!

That is pretty much true. After the first ColecoVision flashback, there have been no more clones. Maybe this inspired someone to fill the void with something superior.

[Lord Thag]

 

And because we buy one or two or three every year, they keep releasing every year. Maybe if people stopped buying these we would get our holy grail all in one system!

Nah, we'd just go back to the way it used to be: nothing whatsoever.

 

We'll never get a 'perfect' system, there isn't enough demand and the price for a deluxe unit would drive away the target market (casual parents reliving their childhood/introducing their kids). I wish it were otherwise... but it's not.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Near Field Communication dots. Like RF tags that have 5cm range and no more. They're tiny stickers that are with a circuit, printed by the thousands for a like a coupla bucks.

 

I only know enough about the Crispy Walkman through what I read here in message forums. I don't like the vintage WalkMan formfactor. If it's a game console it should look like a game console. I want clarity and definition on my physical controls. I want them to represent what their function is. Much like the original VCS console's properly labeled switches do. The WalkMan formfactor also raises questions about whether non-standard sized carts will fit. So there's that.

I know what an NFC dot is. Amiibos use them too. I saw someone on Etsy was selling sets of pog style slammers with counterfeit Amiibo NFC tags. Perhaps an empty 3D printed Game Boy sized cart (shaped like a miniature of whatever system the game was released for) with no pcb and just a label and an NFC dot would do. Carts can be shaped and colored based on miniaturized versions of their parent systems. The NFC dot contains the full ROM and what system it runs on. Just drop the cart on the scanner portal and play the game. Kinda like Skylanders but the fake cart unlocks retro game.

And your mid range $600 NUC for emulation? At that price, an FPGA solution is more economical. But FPGA or emulation, the solution is only as good as the software built into it. And the hardware build quality, in Retron's case, since they cut so many corners. But at least the cart port is through hole. I wonder how long a surface mounted cartridge slot would last...

Hyperkin said they had Harmony cart running on an early prototype, but the prototype wasn't cost effective. If the Harmony worked at some point during development, then it must have been bit-banging the cart. Of course the corporate penny pinchers ruined if for everyone with their corner cutting. I would have gladly forked over $150+ or even $200 or so for a quality unit that ran software from the carts natively. In fact the Retron 77 would not look out of place next to the AVS and the Super NT. But unfortunately, the internals are far less than palatable. Perhaps this weekend I'll mess around with the SD card and install the 3.9.3 firmware update Stephena posted to see if it fixes the issues I was having.

[Swami]

Okay, Eeyore.

 

Nah, we'd just go back to the way it used to be: nothing whatsoever.

 

We'll never get a 'perfect' system, there isn't enough demand and the price for a deluxe unit would drive away the target market (casual parents reliving their childhood/introducing their kids). I wish it were otherwise... but it's not.

[mr_me]

It is, but, like I said, it is pretty much what CollectorVision is doing for the ColecoVision, so why not for the Atari VCS? It would be more of an enthusiast market - like 2000 units sold instead of 200,000.

The Collectorvision system will play Atari 2600 rom files. With some tweaking and a cartridge adapter it could support Atari 2600 cartridges (without dumping just like the analogue nt mini). Edited July 13, 2018 by mr_me

[Swami]

The Collectorvision system will play Atari 2600 rom files. With some tweaking and a cartridge adapter it could support Atari 2600 cartridges (without dumping just like the analogue nt mini).

A bit funny, but the use of the term "Firmware Update" for the system became a point of contention even though the system is a year or two out. However, a firmware update and adapter seem reasonable, assuming their original hardware can support it. I think Atari had to revise the 5200 electronics to support a 2600 cart adapter. I know the expansion port is off the table, as the sd card reader is seen as being a good enough stand-in for the 2600 expansion module.

 

It's also a bit funny-strange that it would be a ColecoVision enthusiast that would end up making a truly daunting multi-8-bit retroconsole, rather than an Atari enthusiast.

[mr_me]

Perhaps it's because software emulation is so good that these boxes are not as important (except for collectors). And Coleco vision homebrewers seem to focus on cartridges first where Atari 2600 homebrewers seem to be more rom file friendly. Are there Atari 2600 homebrews that are only available on cartridge and not rom files?

Edited July 13, 2018 by mr_me

[Keatah]

I think it's more based on hope that the issues can be fixed. Of course if they aren't and things stay as they are, no one is really going to use this thing as is on a regular basis going forward. Are they?

 

I think it will see continue to see high interest for the time being, but once word of 60-70% compatibility gets around people will want another solution. Original hardware, true Software Emulation via Stella on the PC, or perhaps some new & as yet unheard of FPGA implementation. People say Kevtris has a VCS core ready to go. Perhaps wait for that.

 

---

 

It's been 41 years since the VCS came out. That's 41 years to get a clone right, and these partially compatible clones are the best the industry can do? In this day and age of microprocessors that can do billions upon billions of operations per second? Electronics and computing have become so versatile that there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for these half-assed attempts we're seeing. And it can't get out of its own way.

 

Talk about lazy developers. The tools for designing circuits and fabricating boards are abundant and not that hard to learn. And the chipset in question is a 6502, RIOT, TIA, which can't amount to more than 8-10 thousand transistors. The big boys at intel are making chips with billions of parts on them!

 

Please don't insult me either by saying it for casual gamers. If I want to play a game I would expect it work, not have to consult a compatibility spreadsheet or jump through hoops. And if it doesn't I wouldn't sit back and say ok, well maybe this one would work. No. I'd return the product and ask for a refund. Back in the day we had no worries. Stuff. Just. Worked.

 

I'm sorry. I feel the Retron77 is simply pieces of existing things slapped together. Whereas if some thought went into this, even 10% more, it would become clear the best way is to recreate the chipset and use that. OR forgo dumping cartridges altogether and just do software emulation. This half-baked mix of emulation/hardware/dumping doesn't do the job well enough.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Keatah

[Lord Thag]

Okay, Eeyore.

 

 

Haven't had your coffee yet, I take it?

 

Not being negative, just realistic. Like I said, I really wish it were otherwise. Atari just doesn't the demand Nintendo does, even if it should.

 

 

[Swami]

Perhaps it's because software emulation is so good that these boxes are not as important. And Coleco vision homebrewers seem to focus on cartridges first where Atari 2600 homebrewers seem to be more rom file friendly. Are there Atari 2600 homebrews that are only available on cartridge and not rom files?

There are a few 2600 homebrew cart sellers I'm aware of that haven't released their roms, but it is not very significant.

[Swami]

 

Haven't had your coffee yet, I take it?

 

Not being negative, just realistic. Like I said, I really wish it were otherwise. Atari just doesn't the demand Nintendo does, even if it should.

 

 

Sorry, just funnin' ya for the gloomy Eeyore disposition vs my possibly pie-in-the-sky optimism.

[mr_me]

Someone can make a quality cartridge dumping emulator. It should be clear that it's not 100% cartridge compatible and even have a compatibility list. Having said that I think an fpga emulator is the way to go but there's no reason a quality software emulator based cartridge system can't happen. Unfortunately Atgames and I guess hyperkin target the low end of the market. Is there a market for something higher priced?

 

And I wouldn't describe any software emulation box as a clone system.

Edited July 13, 2018 by mr_me

[Lord Thag]

Sorry, just funnin' ya for the gloomy Eeyore disposition vs my possibly pie-in-the-sky optimism.

 

Ah gottcha, hard to read humor in bare text sometimes....

 

Probably because I haven't had MY coffee yet

[Swami]

 

Ah gottcha, hard to read humor in bare text sometimes....

 

Probably because I haven't had MY coffee yet

[Keatah]

The problem for me is my general lack of interest in these novelty items that are cheap inferior versions of the original based on what seems to be the retail paradigm that cheap inferior junk is more profitable than a console that is actually superior to the original VCS. I hope that the $200 Collectorvision ColecoVision 2 console will be everything that is promised and then will sell well to inspire someone to build an equivalent $200 VCS console that has a fully compatible 2600 cart slot, sd compatibility with all 8bit Atari systems and keyboard port. It would also need some type of controller port system so you could use a 2600/7800 controller for the 5200 games or some solution I cant quite envision. In 2018, something like this, superior but faithful to the original, would be the only option I could see as a worthy modern 2600 replacement. Otherwise, just stick with the original rather than downgrade. SD Lynx and possibly Jag compatibility would be a bonus.

 

Absolutely. And lack of interest in half-baked products like Retron 77 or some of the FlashBacks is to be expected. It is literally Cheap Chinese Junk! Look at the edges of the PCB on the R77 and compare them against the PCB edges in a vintage VCS built in 1977. And note the solder quality and quantity. Just because there's a 2018 AllWinner quad-core chip in doesn't mean it's cool. the Mali GPU design is quite dated and not compatible with the necessary standards to make for good emulation. Wasn't the Mali designed for 2005-era (pre-smartphone) phones?

 

There are many cost-cutting, corner-cutting, things going on in this console. But that's enough for now.

 

---

 

You know, there's another thing. How come no one is complaining about the razor sharp images and pixels rendered by this? Yet people complained (and continue to do so) that Software Emulation on the PC is harsh with sharp edges.

 

It's 100% the same damned thing here! You have a PC emulator outputting unfiltered, sharp, harsh edges.

 

Does "because cartridges" suddenly make it all better? Mmmhmm..

 

---

 

As far as building a modern VCS today, it's eminently doable, and the basic groundwork has been done in FPGA already. Several times over. AND in the Software Emulation camp, Stella got a shot of increased accuracy this year. And sound is up for improvement next, I hear. Not that it's bad to begin with.

 

There are several ways to go about making a modern-day VCS. You could have recreation/simulation of the original circuitry. You could even build limited editions using old-stock or (somehow) reclaimed TIA chips.

 

Or even a non-gimmicky console around Stella itself.

[Keatah]

This is why. People aren't in business to make us happy, they are in business to make the most money possible

 

In friendly counterpoint. This is why I say Original Hardware, or Software Emulation with Stella 5.x, are the only options. Those are the only two choices available.

 

I'm not in the business of buying stuff just because it's on the market. I'm in the business of playing the games.

 

[Keatah]

This is why what? Like I said, someone IS doing it for the ColecoVision. Actually three companies are building consoles that should be superior to the original ColecoVision, which had no where near the market share Atari did, BITD.

 

Edit: It might not make anyone rich, but it does not seem to be an absurd idea either. What seems absurd is buying multiple inferior systems because they are $50, so why not, rather than one superior system that is $200?

 

Because the market is starved for a VCS replacement. And people will buy anything at this point. Is there a reason to raise the bar if the junk sells left and right? Keep selling that junk!

[atarifan88]

Keatah brings up some good points! I want a system that I'll only have to buy once and will work right out of the box. No update this, fix that. If the only way I get a near 100% compatibility is to use a rom/sd cart system, then im ok with that. It will be far less clutter than having to deal with a bunch of loose carts. I miss the days of playing carts, but if they are not going to be compatible because then i would much prefer a digital system that runs off a nicely organized menu. As it stands, the Retron 77 is not that solution.

[Akito01]

 

In friendly counterpoint. This is why I say Original Hardware, or Software Emulation with Stella 5.x, are the only options. Those are the only two choices available.

 

 

 

But... there is another choice available. It arrived yesterday. It's sitting next to my TV right now. I played Demon Attack and Spider Fighter on it this morning. It was fun, I had a good time.

[Lord Thag]

Keatah brings up some good points! I want a system that I'll only have to buy once and will work right out of the box. No update this, fix that. If the only way I get a near 100% compatibility is to use a rom/sd cart system, then im ok with that. It will be far less clutter than having to deal with a bunch of loose carts. I miss the days of playing carts, but if they are not going to be compatible because then i would much prefer a digital system that runs off a nicely organized menu. As it stands, the Retron 77 is not that solution.

 

Someone just needs to sell pre-packaged Raspberry Pi systems like this. Plug and play, no end-user setup, as the emulation on that board is rock solid.

 

That said, I'm fine with the Retron 77 taking a bit to get right. I knew what I was getting. This is how Hyperkin operates, they are nice people, but very small time. It'll get there.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Someone can make a quality cartridge dumping emulator. It should be clear that it's not 100% cartridge compatible and even have a compatibility list. Having said that I think an fpga emulator is the way to go but there's no reason a quality software emulator based cartridge system can't happen. Unfortunately Atgames and I guess hyperkin target the low end of the market.

 

Is there a market for something higher priced?

 

And I wouldn't describe any software emulation box as a clone system.

Yes. There are these fine devices:

 

NES:

https://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=78

 

SNES:

https://www.analogue.co/pages/store/

 

Give it more time. Hopefully these rubbish half assed emulator/dumper clones will become a thing of the past. I expect more will come with time as technology gets cheaper. They gotta cover the most popular systems first, ie NES, SNES, Genesis/MD, then we get Atari and other pre crash stuffs.