AVGCART

[+Peter Rabitt]

OK I did what the notes on the AVG said but did not get to the point I was trying to get to..

I tried the "COPY" and it said where to: and I could not tell it where it was to copy to..I tried D1:, tried "A" tried juat 4, but it did not let me type the ":" and did nothing..

Also what is MOUNTING a file mean What is the actual meaning of that...Back in the 80's we just loaded programs or run them by calling them out in the dos menu...

Sorry for asking new be questions but I guess I need a fifth grade dictionary.

All I wanted to do is move 3 files from the cart to a disk.. One is a dos prog. an ATR, one is the APT tool kit an ATR and the last was the vtoc.com. I have them on the cart but need them on the disk.. 

 

Peter

[tmp]

i'm too confused by your description to be of any help but if you need to combine files from atr images and/or inject files to them, it's probably easier to do that in altirra disk explorer

[tmp]

21 hours ago, Larry said:

How are your replacement fpga tests going?  Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

i should have some feedback from three more people this weekend, if there are no issues, the cart production will (slowly) start

[+Peter Rabitt]

14 hours ago, Peter Rabitt said:

OK I did what the notes on the AVG said but did not get to the point I was trying to get to..

I tried the "COPY" and it said where to: and I could not tell it where it was to copy to..I tried D1:, tried "A" tried just 4, but it did not let me type the ":" and did nothing..

What I was trying to ask is HOW does the copy work?? Maybe IF you can show how to use the copy them I could use it.

Can you copy a file from the cart to a disk drive?? If so how? What do you have to do to make it work.. What cmd's do you need to do it..Maybe you could show me the cmd's ??

Sorry I got carried away with more than one question..

 

Peter

[tmp]

oh, you mean copy functionality in avgcart selector, that just copies files on sd card as you would do on pc, it has nothing to do with mounted atrs and whatnot

if you want to copy files from/to virtual drives (mounted atr files), you need to boot some DOS on atari and do that from it

and no, you currently can't access individual files stored on fat32 from DOS

[manterola]

I have read and reread your question, as well as the questions from last week in which you were asking something similar in fujinet. I still cannot understand what you want. 

 

I guess you need to understand that when you select an ATR (in AVG or Fujinet) you are "mounting" a disk image in a emulated drive (like inserting a floppy in a real drive). So if you mount a given ATR as D2: and your real drive is D1:  , then from the atari point of view you have 2 drives, so you copy files inside those floppies in the Atari way: load a DOS , and then copy the individual files like "copy d2:myfile.ext d1:"    or similar depending on the DOS of your preference.

 

[Beeblebrox]

@Peter Rabitt  just to check to avoid going round in circles as it can easily happen when we start to talk about retro computing with modern tech devices like Avg cart, side3 cart, etc....can you confirm you have a clear understanding of what an Atari ATR is, and what FAT is?

 

The files you copy from your Pc to the sdcard which you can then use in the avg loader are being copied to a fat partition on the sdcard, since Pc can't read Atari formats or save directly to the Atari partition table format. 

 

As others have mentioned atr files are an atari 8bit computer specific format, a container file which is mounted and can contain atari files. These mimic old atari disk drive formats. So you can have for example a ss/sd 90k disk image atr. This is mounted via avg cart as a virtual drive and then avg can access that disk image and the Atari just thinks a disk drive is attached. 

 

You have to use an atari dos to access it, where spartados x is considered one if not the best. 

Avg cart, with the addition of an sio cable that connects to it, allows you to also write directly to the atr. 

 

AFAIK there is no DOS for AVG currently that allows you to access the fat partition directly to read and write directly to it. 

 

So you couldn't for example have d1 (a mounted atr and files on it) , then have d2, a fat partition, and copy files from within the d1 atr image to the d2 fat partition. 

 

Currently the Side3 cart new beta firmware has a brand new cmd fat dos. With an atari with an u1mb installed it allows you access to fat petitions to read and write to them. So you can mount say an atr image as drive d1, access the files within that atr disk images, and copy them directly to the d2 fat partition. 

 

So in summary an atr image is a virtual atari disk drive format that must me mounted as a virtual drive. Fat format is what your pc can read. It isn't a virtual disk drive format. 

 

With Side3/u1mb your sdcard can be partitioned to have both fat partitions and also atari table partitions (Atp) on the same cart. AFAIK only atari Dos systems like spartadosx can access the apt formatted partitions. They can't access fat partitions to write to them, only to read (with a special driver installed). 

 

With the new side3 fat Dos beta you can read and write directly to fat partitions. 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[TZJB]

16 hours ago, Peter Rabitt said:

OK I did what the notes on the AVG said but did not get to the point I was trying to get to..

I tried the "COPY" and it said where to: and I could not tell it where it was to copy to..I tried D1:, tried "A" tried juat 4, but it did not let me type the ":" and did nothing..

Also what is MOUNTING a file mean What is the actual meaning of that...Back in the 80's we just loaded programs or run them by calling them out in the dos menu...

Sorry for asking new be questions but I guess I need a fifth grade dictionary.

All I wanted to do is move 3 files from the cart to a disk.. One is a dos prog. an ATR, one is the APT tool kit an ATR and the last was the vtoc.com. I have them on the cart but need them on the disk.. 

 

Peter

I don't have an AVG cartridge yet but I may have an answer. I use S-Drive Max which can use the same file types that you mentioned. Your initial question is very confusing, possibly because of your understanding of the matter and the typos! You also have not described the type or size of the floppy disk you might use to accomodate the three items that you wish to copy. The FAT32 file management system of the AVG is purely to manage the images and files on the SD card in order to mount them to an emulated cartridge or floppy drive that an Atari 8 bit computer will then be able to detect and execute or manage on the parallel or the serial bus.

That aside, from what I deduce, you would actually like to copy files from 1 SD card to a 2nd card possibly CF (CompactFlash) in which case you may find it easier to copy them with a PC placing the cards into SD/CF USB adapters and copying using Windows from one drive to another.

 

I hope this helps.

[+Peter Rabitt]

OK one last try.

When I bought the AVG cart, SD-max, IDE 2 plus,Fujinet, etc I was buying a substitute for a HARD DRIVE.. One that you could hook up to the ATARI 8 bit and use it as storage... BUT what I have found that without an PC, MAC, etc they do not work.. All I can understand is that they can hold a LOT of Atari files and serve then one at a time to the Atari that is hooked up to them... Can not transfer the files to a floppy disk etc... You can run many "files" from the "HDD" and can save to some of them but can not copy them to floppies or even to a different "HDD" device...

OR I am missing something...

 

Peter

6 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

clear understanding of what an Atari Atr is, and what fat32 is

Above was created as I was typing so:: Yes I understand most of what fat32 is.. I probably do not understand the "ATR" part of it but think it is like a EXE in the msdos world. A file that will run with out help.

 

13 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Currently the Side3 cart new beta firmware has a brand new cmd fat dos. With an Atari with an u1mb installed it allows you access to fat petitions to read and write to them. So you can mount say an atr image as drive d1, access the files within that atr disk images, and copy them directly to the d2 fat partition. 

I have a SIDE 3 but have not used it as the above "sd" drives have me wondering if I should sell all my Atari and just go back to PC's... I also have the u1mb but not installed. Need to get a handle on the stuff I do have..

Now you say "mount".. What is THAT???

I think the problem I am having is that after 40years the language has changed.

[manterola]

I explained the concept of "mounting" already. And the ATR, as well, I guess, an ATR represents a whole floppy disk with it content in a single "PC" file.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by manterola

[Beeblebrox]

@Peter Rabitt ATRs are not executable files like PC exe files no. As explained they are self contained disk images which effectly mimic a Atari format disk drive. So like the PC equivalent of an ISO file perhaps. So in order for the Atari to see that atr image as a disk drive, you mount it as say d1. 

 

This is retro computing of course, so if it isn't for you and you'd rather go back to jsut a modern pc then that is a shame bit of course that is your prerogative. 

Edit:

My advice is read up as much as you can as there is a wealth of info on AA and elsewhere. 

?

 

BTW all the modern cart and tech like Avg, side3, fujinet, u1mb, etc etc and what they bring to the table for the Atari 8 bits is amazing. ??

 

Atari rocks!!!!! ????

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[+Peter Rabitt]

@Beeblebrox

No I do not want to go back to MSdos world. I just want to understand the "new" Atari world..

I was a SYSOP of a BBS back in the days 80's and was a member of a Atari user group, etc...

BUT I am having trouble understanding the new equipment and how it works...

I guess my age is catching up with me...

 

Peter

[Beeblebrox]

10 minutes ago, Peter Rabitt said:

@Beeblebrox

No I do not want to go back to MSdos world. I just want to understand the "new" Atari world..

I was a SYSOP of a BBS back in the days 80's and was a member of a Atari user group, etc...

BUT I am having trouble understanding the new equipment and how it works...

I guess my age is catching up with me...

 

Peter

@Peter Rabitt  Cool, good to hear. Only mentioned it because you said you were thinking of selling your Atari stuff.

 

IMHO by the very nature of retro computing you will find yourself having to get your head around things a lot. There is lots to learn but it's all here on AA. It's definitely worth the effort. 

 

If you already have an uninstalled U1mb then I'd recommend you install it. Once done upgrade to the latest u1mb firmware if it hasn't got it already, then update your side3 firmware to the latest beta, and have a play. 

 

Anyway, not wishing to hijack this thread as it is for Avg cart related discussions. 

 

Good luck. ?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[+DjayBee]

2 hours ago, Peter Rabitt said:

When I bought the AVG cart, SD-max, IDE 2 plus,Fujinet, etc I was buying a substitute for a HARD DRIVE..

Nope, you did not.

 

You actually bought eight disk drives, being it floppy oder hard drives.

Your SD-card and any TNFS server you connect your Fujinet to, are pretty huge disk boxes.

Each ATR is a floppy disk.

Inside the ATR are files which the Atari also sees as files.

 

Therefore you "mount" an ATR to one of the (virtual) disk drives inside your AVG/Fujinet/whatever.

 

So if you want to copy an ATR (file) to a real floppy disk, you actually copy a whole disk from the Atari's point of view.

In order to do that, you have to boot an Atari DOS or a dedicated disk copy program on your Atari (from an ATR you mounted to virtual disk D1 or from a real floppy drive set to number D1) and then copy a whole disk (from the Atari's point of view) to another disk.

 

Of course, you have to be careful that each drive number is actually active only once.

If AVG/Fujinet/whatever has the ATR mounted to drive D1, then the Atari will boot from this ATR and your physical floppy drive must not be set to D1.

... and so on.

Edited July 15, 2022 by DjayBee

[+Peter Rabitt]

@Beeblebrox  Thanks for the upbeat... I have been here for about 1.5 years and still don't know some of the shortcut names.. I will try harder..

 

@DjayBee  I when I said "When I bought the AVG cart, SD-max, IDE 2 plus,Fujinet, etc I was buying a substitute for a HARD DRIVE.. " I meant that I thought I was buying a HDD for the addition to the Atari computer to store all the programs on and also could add/move files to floppy disks.  As I wanted to repair a few floppies that I have.. So I need some of the files on F.D. 

I did find on the AVG cart a "copy" (control+c) but it does not appear to copy files from the AVG to anything that I can find..

I will keep trying...

 

Peter

 

[MrFSL]

5 hours ago, Peter Rabitt said:

@Beeblebrox  Thanks for the upbeat... I have been here for about 1.5 years and still don't know some of the shortcut names.. I will try harder..

 

@DjayBee  I when I said "When I bought the AVG cart, SD-max, IDE 2 plus,Fujinet, etc I was buying a substitute for a HARD DRIVE.. " I meant that I thought I was buying a HDD for the addition to the Atari computer to store all the programs on and also could add/move files to floppy disks.  As I wanted to repair a few floppies that I have.. So I need some of the files on F.D. 

I did find on the AVG cart a "copy" (control+c) but it does not appear to copy files from the AVG to anything that I can find..

I will keep trying...

 

Peter

 

Hey Peter, i understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to do,  but as you can see here, there are a lot of concepts and presumptions that have to be understood first. 

 

Your profile says you are in the US. perhaps you could find someone here to give you some tutor time over zoom or facetime or something. Ive got my hands full right now but there are lots of folks on this forum.

[Mclaneinc]

I sort of get that Peter wants an Atari based program that will display the contents of the AVG and allow him to manipulate the contents. Obviously there are issues with that approach, long file names that do not match the 8:3 format, unrecognised symbols on names and anything that does not conform to an Atari DOS way. Peters problem is that the AVG currently does not recognise all files to save the screen from being cluttered and directory limits(?).  He wants to works directly from the contents of the cart rather than having to mount ATR's etc (although that is a MUST in most cases).

 

Currently, I don't think that type of software is out there, as of now the AVG sort of acts as a big HDD but does not allow manipulation of all file formats which was never it's intended use.

 

I think this is what Peter is after..

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, Mclaneinc said:

I sort of get that Peter wants an Atari based program that will display the contents of the AVG and allow him to manipulate the contents. Obviously there are issues with that approach, long file names that do not match the 8:3 format, unrecognised symbols on names and anything that does not conform to an Atari DOS way. Peters problem is that the AVG currently does not recognise all files to save the screen from being cluttered and directory limits(?).  He wants to works directly from the contents of the cart rather than having to mount ATR's etc (although that is a MUST in most cases).

 

Currently, I don't think that type of software is out there, as of now the AVG sort of acts as a big HDD but does not allow manipulation of all file formats which was never it's intended use.

 

I think this is what Peter is after..

Sure, no one piece of universal Atari software exists that allows read and write access to both Atari apt and fat partitions and mounted Atr images all in one. As mentioned with the new side3 beta (when used with u1mb)  you have a completely new Dos fat partition, (that is read and now write), and then spartadosx which can read and write to apt partitions. With a special fat driver installed you can read fat partitions from spartadosx, but not write. So for the first time with the new fat Dos you can write directly to the sdcard fat partition (can be gigabytes of space) and take out the sdcard to pop it directly into the pc. 

 

The side3 beta loader menu itself allows you to read and write directly to the fat, copy, delete and rename, but all within the fat partion only. 

 

The key things to understand a lot of this is the concept of the universal fat format that Windows pc and android file systems use, and the apt atari format, which is Atari 8 bit only with 8:3 file format.

 

As flashjazzcat's will attest to - writing a FAT compatible file management system and Dos when you also have long and short filenames to contend with is a massive job and months of painstaking work. 

 

More info here including a video as it is very hard to explain these things in text only:https://atari8.co.uk/firmware/side3-beta-loader/

 

Sorry again for hijacking the avg thread, just trying to clarify things with all of this and outline what is out there to illustrate the convuluted nature of file systems, retro and modern, and the challenges. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[Mr Robot]

21 hours ago, Peter Rabitt said:

OK one last try.

When I bought the AVG cart, SD-max, IDE 2 plus,Fujinet, etc I was buying a substitute for a HARD DRIVE.. One that you could hook up to the ATARI 8 bit and use it as storage... BUT what I have found that without an PC, MAC, etc they do not work.. All I can understand is that they can hold a LOT of Atari files and serve then one at a time to the Atari that is hooked up to them... Can not transfer the files to a floppy disk etc... You can run many "files" from the "HDD" and can save to some of them but can not copy them to floppies or even to a different "HDD" device...

OR I am missing something...

 

Of course all of this gets more complicated by the fact that Side2/Side3/AVG/IDE2Plus do in fact offer HDD emulation as well as Floppy so it is possible to do what you want but setting it up is probably too complicated given your current skill level with Atari concepts and modern devices. 

 

You would need to partition an SD/CF card on your PC/Mac to carve out a small amount of space for your Atari HDD, then format the large partition on your PC/Mac and the small partition on your Atari using SpartaDOSX and an excellent utility called FDISK. it would then be possible to have a bootable 'HARD DRIVE' on your Atari that you can copy files to and from other ATR/ATX files that you have inserted into the AVG as Floppy disks. Basic instructions for doing this are in DeRe AVGCART, look at the section on IDE Interface. 

 

[+mytek]

17 hours ago, Peter Rabitt said:

I when I said "When I bought the AVG cart, SD-max, IDE 2 plus,Fujinet, etc I was buying a substitute for a HARD DRIVE.. " I meant that I thought I was buying a HDD for the addition to the Atari computer to store all the programs on and also could add/move files to floppy disks.

When I was first getting back into the Atari 8-bit in 2015, I too was looking for a solid state hard drive for reading and writing files, because I really wanted something better than floppies. And although some of the cheaper solutions (e.g., SIO2PC, SDrive, ect.) required a bit of rethinking and learning on my part, I soon discovered the magic of ATRs which could be formatted up to 16 MB under Sparta and MyDos (that's a lot of file space for an 8-bit). Basically they are just like a floppy, but faster and capable of much higher capacity. And if you have a real floppy on your system, all the usual copy commands work between the ATR image and the floppy.

 

For someone just getting back into working with the Atari 8-bit, I'd stick with ATRs initially, since they work the same in practice as a floppy, so there would be minimal learning required.

 

[Beeblebrox]

@Mr Robot I'll check out De Re avg cart sometime. 

 

Correct me if I have misunderstood but there isn't the ability to write directly to a FAT partition in that instance with AvG? So you can mount an ATR disk image for example and read and even write to the disk image itself, (if your avg cart has the sio cable extension plugged in), but you cannot save/write directly to the FAT partition via AVGs file management system or via SpartadosX. You can read FAT with a particular fat driver installed, but ultimately not write.

 

On my SIDE3 and U1mb combo setup before the recent SIDE3 beta loader and FATFMS/DOS was made available, allowed me to have an emulated PBI hard drive with a FAT partition as well as Atari APT partitions (created by Fdisk as you mentioned), If I wanted to. But at the time all I could do was read and write to the APT partition via SpartadosX or just read from the FAT partition from the loader. I wasn't able to write to the FAT partition directly with either it's loader or SpartaDosX.

 

Now I can with the Side3 beta loader menu's file management system as well as the FATFMS DOS. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mclaneinc]

@mytek

 

That sounds like a damn fine alternative, I'd forgotten about the mega sized ATR's (I didn't know you could make them under those two DOS's either)

Edited July 16, 2022 by Mclaneinc

[+mytek]

33 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

@mytek

 

That sounds like a damn fine alternative, I'd forgotten about the mega sized ATR's (I didn't know you could make them under those two DOS's either)

As an example, here's a bootable 16MB ATR with MyDos 4.53 system files on it.

 

MyDos 16MB Drive.atr

Edited July 16, 2022 by mytek

[Mr Robot]

39 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

@Mr Robot I'll check out De Re avg cart sometime. 

 

Correct me if I have misunderstood but there isn't the ability to write directly to a FAT partition in that instance with AvG? So you can mount an ATR disk image for example and read and even write to the disk image itself, (if your avg cart has the sio cable extension plugged in), but you cannot save/write directly to the FAT partition via AVGs file management system or via SpartadosX. You can read FAT with a particular fat driver installed, but ultimately not write.

 

On my SIDE3 and U1mb combo setup before the recent SIDE3 beta loader and FATFMS/DOS was made available, allowed me to have an emulated PBI hard drive with a FAT partition as well as Atari APT partitions (created by Fdisk as you mentioned), If I wanted to. But at the time all I could do was read and write to the APT partition via SpartadosX or just read from the FAT partition from the loader. I wasn't able to write to the FAT partition directly with either it's loader or SpartaDosX.

 

Now I can with the Side3 beta loader menu's file management system as well as the FATFMS DOS. 

 

You can create a fat16 partition and read/write that with SDX but yes there's no way to load a file from the fat32 partition and copy it to the apt partition. If the file is an ATR/ATX you can mount it as a floppy disk and copy the contents of it to the apt partition but the files themselves? no that's not currently possible. 

 

tmp did show this off a little while ago

 

but nothing has ever been released. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Mr Robot
wrong video!

[+Peter Rabitt]

2 hours ago, Mr Robot said:

but setting it up is probably too complicated given your current skill level with Atari concepts and modern devices. 

OK I agree!!! Now how do "we" try to get my skill level to a place that I can do the things I am asking???

 

Not wanting to change the thread but I have used the IDE2plus to do things that the AVG can not..(use the fat16 partition to copy files to the APT partition etc) As I see it the AVG is just a big HDD look-a-like and all you can do is play games from it but not use it for a support for the Atari as a saving device. Namely, you can not save back to it, or at least I have not found away except with a PC/MAC etc. Kind of hard if you are on a Atari to save thru and PC/MAC..

 

I am not sure why you have to buy more equipment so you can use the different devices?? (side3/U1mb etc).(I have both and about ALL the new devices out for the Atari)

Also ONE thing that really makes me "mad" is why I have to buy/have a PC or MAC to use the new things for Atari.. Never needed them back in the days (80's).

 

Sorry for the rant I will find something else to do for a few days to "cool" down and come back later..

 

Peter