EmuParadise has removed its entire library of retro game ROMs and ISOs

[phoenixdownita]

Look, in many cases it's illegal and criminal. Nobody is disputing that. But in some cases it's not even illegal. And private use is not criminal, so it's not correct to call people thieves.

Private use is still illegal if the source is tainted, you can have backups if you did them yourself, still have the original and did not circumvent anti-copy devices in the process.

The rest is illegal until the law changes.

[mr_me]

The law allows you to authorise others to do your backups. There are sections of united states dmca law that still supports the original limitations on copyright including fair use.

 

Under current us law, any use of copyrighted works without permission that meets the critera of fair use is legal. Outside of these limitations on copyright, as mentioned before, private use without permission may be illegal but not criminal.

Edited September 1, 2018 by mr_me

[Tanooki]

 

Yeah... I.. "pretty much" stopped stealing games once I got my first job back when I was 16. I worked for McDonalds for 8 months, and then took a job with CompUSA as a Software floor manager (or whatever it was I was called). I bought games like crazy. I have a case-logic multi-sleeve folder that has something like 200+ CDs and DVDs in it... all computer games that I bought over the years. Every Ultima game, every Sierra game... I bought them all. Bought the collectors editions, the multi-packs, whatever. Any game I ever had, that I liked... I own. Every software I own has a legitimate license... Rosetta Stone, every copy of Windows, etc.

 

Same goes for video games. I guess you could say I still have stolen games, as I did recently buy a Dragon Warrior multi-cart for the NES on eBay. It has all four Dragon Warrior games on it. I only actually legitimately own 1 and 2. I just don't want to pay $120 for Dragon Warrior 3 and 4... and really, I've never even played it.

 

Aside from that, I also have the Jamma 500+ in one (or whatever it is). I do have a real Galaga and a real Missile Command upright, but that doesn't make up for it. But yeah... I don't feel bad about it. I've legitimately bough thousands of dollars of games. But I'm not oblivious to the fact that it's still theft.

 

I don't have any stolen music though. I've got an equally sized case logic folder with just as many music CDs from back in the day when people used CDs. I don't really have any MP3s... deleted them all. I'm an old fart now ever since I turned 40... and now I basically listen to conservative talk radio all the time, hahah...

Up until 2004-5 I was the same, anything I bought I kept, even if it was average as I'd come around to it again with a lot of time around work and stuff. Unemployment changed my perspective and most of it was lost, over time I built some stuff back up, some overly so when it was still not stupid to buy (2011 and back.) Like you I've bought thousands of games, have hundreds too on physical media, so I don't feel so bad about having a few multicarts I do as they all came in a lot with some device I was purchasing (fc mobile, neo geo, cocktail arcade for example.) Music I've actually never stolen either, not really sure why as it would have been easy, but anything I liked I found a CD for most the time second hand, and very recently vinyl too. I don't see the point not to it's cheap.

[82-T/A]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#"Theft"

 

"Theft" is used as a pejorative and was already thrown out once by the US supreme court.

 

So told for large commercial operations it can become a criminal case in the US (repros are counterfeit if you really want to dig).

 

The point though still stands, it's illegal (the fact that is it only a civil offense for small cases makes little difference, still illegal according to those laws)

 

Again, not trying to be a jerk here... but NONE of us are lawyers (pretty sure no one here in this discussion is a lawyer). So while it may be fun to argue the semantics, or attempt to IRAC previous cases, or appellate judgements... the fact is, it's still illegal, and it's still ethically and morally wrong.

 

But... I'm not making any judgement on anyone here, and I've stated myself that I have some stuff that I too shouldn't have.

 

 

Yes, piracy is not an accurate or fair way to describe copyright infringement.

 

Look, in many cases it's illegal and criminal. Nobody is disputing that. But in some cases it's not even illegal. And private use is not criminal, so it's not correct to call people thieves.

 

 

Again, no one here is a lawyer, you can't simply state that, because we know for a fact that individuals, corporations, etc... have all been arrested and / or fined for stealing software (pirating software by making digital copies). The law, often written by people who don't fully understand the technology... has some loopholes, the intent is pretty clear. You can make as many copies of software you want, and sometimes you're even allowed to loan it out so long as you agree not to use it at the same time. But... when you download ROMs, or you download an old computer game, and you never purchased it... that's illegal. It just is.

 

 

Again... no judgement here from me, I've done all kinds of bad stuff, but we shouldn't pretend like what we're doing is totally cool.

 

 

Up until 2004-5 I was the same, anything I bought I kept, even if it was average as I'd come around to it again with a lot of time around work and stuff. Unemployment changed my perspective and most of it was lost, over time I built some stuff back up, some overly so when it was still not stupid to buy (2011 and back.) Like you I've bought thousands of games, have hundreds too on physical media, so I don't feel so bad about having a few multicarts I do as they all came in a lot with some device I was purchasing (fc mobile, neo geo, cocktail arcade for example.) Music I've actually never stolen either, not really sure why as it would have been easy, but anything I liked I found a CD for most the time second hand, and very recently vinyl too. I don't see the point not to it's cheap.

 

 

I kept ALL my computer games that I bought on CD... every single one. They don't really yield much "return" when you're doing the... "OMG, just laid off, and have to pay my bills." hahah... been there too. Laid off after the .COM bust, and then again after 9/11. I stole all kinds of music back in the day with NAPSTER, but then deleted it all.

 

 

 

 

GENERAL response for everyone who's looking for the moral "out"... here's how I feel about it:

 

If you can reasonably buy it... then you should. Stealing it because you don't want to pay anything, seems pretty lame. We've got the lowest unemployment rate in the US for every segment of the population in recorded history, except for white males (68-year low). So there's no reason why we can't afford a few bucks here and there. GoG is awesome for filling that need. I even find myself buying all the games on GoG that I ALREADY OWN on CD, but because they're packaged up so nicely by GoG, and for $1.29, how can I say no? I'll put it this way... here's my ethical justification. Dragon Warrior 1 - If you really like this game, just buy the damned cartridge. You can get it on eBay all day like for a few bucks. Dragon Warrior IV... it's like $100 bucks in shit condition. So I wouldn't expect anyone to bother... just download the ROM.

 

 

That's me! Haha... anyone who's bothered can shout me down, and that's cool... not trying to knock over the apple cart...

Edited September 1, 2018 by 82-T/A

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Again, not trying to be a jerk here... but NONE of us are lawyers (pretty sure no one here in this discussion is a lawyer). So while it may be fun to argue the semantics, or attempt to IRAC previous cases, or appellate judgements... the fact is, it's still illegal, and it's still ethically and morally wrong.

 

But... I'm not making any judgement on anyone here, and I've stated myself that I have some stuff that I too shouldn't have.

 

 

 

 

Again, no one here is a lawyer, you can't simply state that, because we know for a fact that individuals, corporations, etc... have all been arrested and / or fined for stealing software (pirating software by making digital copies). The law, often written by people who don't fully understand the technology... has some loopholes, the intent is pretty clear. You can make as many copies of software you want, and sometimes you're even allowed to loan it out so long as you agree not to use it at the same time. But... when you download ROMs, or you download an old computer game, and you never purchased it... that's illegal. It just is.

 

 

Again... no judgement here from me, I've done all kinds of bad stuff, but we shouldn't pretend like what we're doing is totally cool.

 

 

 

 

I kept ALL my computer games that I bought on CD... every single one. They don't really yield much "return" when you're doing the... "OMG, just laid off, and have to pay my bills." hahah... been there too. Laid off after the .COM bust, and then again after 9/11. I stole all kinds of music back in the day with NAPSTER, but then deleted it all.

 

 

 

 

GENERAL response for everyone who's looking for the moral "out"... here's how I feel about it:

 

If you can reasonably buy it... then you should. Stealing it because you don't want to pay anything, seems pretty lame. We've got the lowest unemployment rate in the US for every segment of the population in recorded history, except for white males (68-year low). So there's no reason why we can't afford a few bucks here and there. GoG is awesome for filling that need. I even find myself buying all the games on GoG that I ALREADY OWN on CD, but because they're packaged up so nicely by GoG, and for $1.29, how can I say no? I'll put it this way... here's my ethical justification. Dragon Warrior 1 - If you really like this game, just buy the damned cartridge. You can get it on eBay all day like for a few bucks. Dragon Warrior IV... it's like $100 bucks in shit condition. So I wouldn't expect anyone to bother... just download the ROM.

 

 

That's me! Haha... anyone who's bothered can shout me down, and that's cool... not trying to knock over the apple cart...

Legality aside, it is high time to rewatch this classic service announcement (my heartfelt condolences to the bicycle company featured in the short, whom filed chapter 11 shortly afterwords as their bicycle sales plummeted due to rampant casual duplication).

 

Ethically, it can be argued that downloading ROMs for obsolete systems that are well past their commercial viability does very little to impact any current companies bottom line. And it doesn't damage the reseller market either, with sky high prices making many games completely inaccessible to the public. Perhaps the "use it or lose it" trademark law could be applied to abandoned copyrighted IP as well.

 

That said, piracy of current generation systems can and does cause irreparable harm to corporations bottom line.

 

Since the commercial viability of most gaming platforms rarely exceeds ten years, it is fair to argue that downloads of decades old ROMs (20 years or more) isn't hurting anyone. So downloading retro games is largely a victimless crime, downloading modern games could spell financial ruin, especially for indie studios.

[mr_me]

You have to consider the copyright holder's rights regardless of how old the works are. And copyright is meant to protect the interests of copyright owners, not the used reseller market. Those rights do have limitations under current US law. The use of orphaned works and abandoned works could very well be legal under the existing fair use limitations of US copyright law.

 

Regardless of the law, does anyone think it's wrong to make a copy of something that is otherwise not available for purchase and hasn't been for a long time?

Edited September 2, 2018 by mr_me

[phoenixdownita]

...The use of orphaned works and abandoned works could very well be legal under the existing fair use limitations of US copyright law.

Given you keep on bringing up fair use, I believe your view on what it means is not what it actually means.

 

For example, the backup piece (on the US law):

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117

 

explicitly states you need to maintain possession of the original .... so no, downloading a full romset from internet without already owning all of it does NOT constitute fair use.

 

 

 

 

...

Regardless of the law, does anyone think it's wrong to make a copy of something that is otherwise not available for purchase and hasn't been for a long time?

... yeah, we should really apply this to all facets of our daily interactions ... if I don't feel like it's wrong then it shouldn't be wrong you know "regardless of the law" ...

 

 

I think the topic should be on how to go about changing/bettering the laws so that people shouldn't need to have to think about "regardless of the law".

There's an obvious gap in the legislation, no question about it.

[atarilovesyou]

Ok, we all know: it's illegal. Yup.

 

Does anybody not realize this?

 

Illegal.

 

But then, we do lots of things that are illegal, every day of our lives.

 

Let's not judge.

 

And for the love of all that's holy, let's not have another post pointing out the obvious: it's illegal. We get it.

 

If reminding us all of that (over and over again) brings some kind of elation of sorts, well, that's on them.

[mr_me]

Given you keep on bringing up fair use, I believe your view on what it means is not what it actually means.

 

For example, the backup piece (on the US law):

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117

 

explicitly states you need to maintain possession of the original .... so no, downloading a full romset from internet without already owning all of it does NOT constitute fair use.

 

...

Section 117 is one of the limitations on copyright but the fair use section is 107.

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107

 

It has four criteria to determine fair use. Using orphaned works privately is a non-commercial use but that alone is not enough to satisfy criteria one. The nature of the work under criteria two is that it's not currently published, and not reasonably available. It is the reason why you don't have an original copy. Criteria three is about the portion copied, so that doesn't help. Criteria four is about the effect on the copyright holder's market. Since there is no market being an orphaned work, nothing is effected. Ultimately, it's up to a judge.

Edited September 2, 2018 by mr_me

[RevEng]

And for the love of all that's holy, let's not have another post pointing out the obvious: it's illegal. We get it.

Amen.

[82-T/A]

Section 117 is one of the limitations on copyright but the fair use section is 107.

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107

 

It has four criteria to determine fair use. Using orphaned works privately is a non-commercial use but that alone is not enough to satisfy criteria one. The nature of the work under criteria two is that it's not currently published, and not reasonably available. It is the reason why you don't have an original copy. Criteria three is about the portion copied, so that doesn't help. Criteria four is about the effect on the copyright holder's market. Since there is no market being an orphaned work, nothing is effected. Ultimately, it's up to a judge.

 

 

So, I did go to your link, and it stated that the limitations pertain to:

 

"for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright"

 

 

… I kinda doubt you'd be using your copied ROMs for any of that. Pretending that what you're doing in any of those would of course, be dishonest.

 

 

Furthermore, a law is to be taken in whole, you cannot simply use the parts you like, and not use the parts you do not like. Unless you own a copy in any valid form, you're stealing. PERIOD.

 

 

Let's just all agree what it is and be cool with it, and not try to pretend like it's something it's not. No judgement from me, I'm doing it too simply because there's no other way I know of to get the games I want (500 in 1 arcade JAMMA) without having to buy a warehouse to store 500 upright cabinets... which would be ridiculous. If they opened up an arcade rom store, with the 500 in 1 system that allowed me to pay for what I wanted... and they were reasonably priced like buying songs on iTunes, then I'd totally do that too, and they'd have so much more money.

 

Like I said... I'm a sucker for GoG, and more than half the games I've bought on GoG, I actually already even own in original CD form, but they've packaged them so well... why the hell not.

[RevEng]

So, I did go to your link, and it stated that the limitations pertain to:

 

"for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright[/size]

 

"such as" means an example or list of examples will follow.

 

"such as" doesn't imply that other examples don't exist, in any shape or form.

[mr_me]

That section is written such that those items are clearly only examples and not a requirement. The most famous judgement is the "pretty woman" case where the judge ruled the use was parody which is not in the list. Further, the case showed the use can be commercial and still judged to be fair use.

 

The law is to be taken as a whole. Realise, that each limitation section is not a limitation on user rights, they are limitations on the copyright holder's rights. So the software limitation section does not limit what a user can do it limits what the copyright holder can claim. It does not affect the fair use limitation or any other limitation section.

[82-T/A]

"such as" means an example or list of examples will follow.

 

"such as" doesn't imply that other examples don't exist, in any shape or form.

 

Hahahah ok.

 

 

Guys, are the two of you telling me that you actually think downloading ROMs and downloading games that you didn't buy, is LEGAL? Just want to get a YES or NO on this... for my own enjoyment in this discussion. I don't want a talk-around... just a simple YES and NO.

 

 

YES or NO

 

Do you believe downloading old ROMs and games you never paid for, is LEGAL?

 

 

 

Look, we all do it to some extent, no judgement here... hahaha.

[RevEng]

Hahahah ok.

 

 

Guys, are the two of you telling me that you actually think downloading ROMs and downloading games that you didn't buy, is LEGAL?

 

Generally, not at all. I've already posted a few times on that. But please do continue to tell people it's illegal. It really adds a lot to the discussion.

 

I was just pointing out that the "such as" in your quote means it doesn't say what you thought it did. If the facts matter to you, then my pointing it out to you was a favor.

[John Stamos Mullet]

Ok, we all know: it's illegal. Yup.

 

Does anybody not realize this?

 

Illegal.

 

But then, we do lots of things that are illegal, every day of our lives.

 

Let's not judge.

 

And for the love of all that's holy, let's not have another post pointing out the obvious: it's illegal. We get it.

 

If reminding us all of that (over and over again) brings some kind of elation of sorts, well, that's on them.

i think his point is that a lot of people on this forum and in this hobby practice all manner of mental gymnastics and ridiculous false equivalences to justify said illegal activity as it it were, in fact, legal and permitted. So while you may get annoyed at the repeated insistence that it is illegal, there are other who in the opposite way get annoyed by people perpetuating elaborately concocted , completely fabricated justifications to absolve them of wrongdoing.

 

"But if I download from a server located in the Netherlands, after 9pm on the 14th of September using a proxy server it's totally legal!" Man, stop it. Copyright infringement is illegal, and enforceable in every industrialized nation on earth. We're all pirates. Stop lying to yourself, and looking for make believe loopholes to absolve your sins.

[82-T/A]

Generally, not at all. I've already posted a few times on that. But please do continue to tell people it's illegal. It really adds a lot to the discussion.

 

I was just pointing out that the "such as" in your quote means it doesn't say what you thought it did. If the facts matter to you, then my pointing it out to you was a favor.

 

 

Ok, as long as we all agree, copying ROMs and downloading games is illegal.

 

I'm a BIG fan of facing reality head on, and making informed decisions, rather than trying to psychologically fool myself.

 

 

 

i think his point is that a lot of people on this forum and in this hobby practice all manner of mental gymnastics and ridiculous false equivalences to justify said illegal activity as it it were, in fact, legal and permitted. So while you may get annoyed at the repeated insistence that it is illegal, there are other who in the opposite way get annoyed by people perpetuating elaborately concocted , completely fabricated justifications to absolve them of wrongdoing.

 

"But if I download from a server located in the Netherlands, after 9pm on the 14th of September using a proxy server it's totally legal!" Man, stop it. Copyright infringement is illegal, and enforceable in every industrialized nation on earth. We're all pirates. Stop lying to yourself, and looking for make believe loopholes to absolve your sins.

John Stamos is totally correct!

 

Shoot... I download ROMs, buy repros, whatever... I mean, I'd do it more if I had the time to play games, but I don't. BUT... I fully acknowledge that what I'm doing is wrong.

 

People have free will, and I won't criticize them for doing the same thing I do... that Boolean is flipped. But yeah... the mental gymnastics is incredibly interesting to me, to say the least.

Edited September 2, 2018 by 82-T/A

[mr_me]

At least you guys have stopped calling people thieves and criminals.

[82-T/A]

At least you guys have stopped calling people thieves and criminals.

 

 

WE... are thieves and criminals. But for a crime that the Government has neither the resources, or the time to prosecute.

[Flojomojo]

GROUP HUG

 

who farted?

[mr_me]

You only have to go back one page to see the reference for copyright infringement not being theft. Here's the link about criminal copyright infringement in the united states. If the infringement doesn't meet those conditions it's not criminal.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/506

[John Stamos Mullet]

At least you guys have stopped calling people thieves and criminals.

sharing roms is the same as receiving stolen goods. Which is criminal.

[Flojomojo]

Depriving creators of their livelihoods is not nice, whatever words are used to vilify or justify it.

[mr_me]

And here's the united states supreme court ruling that says illegal copies cannot be regarded as stolen.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985)

Edited September 2, 2018 by mr_me

[enoofu]

The main issue why no one cares is because these long copyrights and easy patents has Destroyed Arts and Sciences in both Europe and North America.

 

Making Copyrights last so long makes its almost impossible to find who owns the rights easily, and creates unfair barriers for companies that Aren't insanely big.

So you end up with 4 or 5 huge companies that control 80-90% of Europe's and North American media. That create unoriginal crap 99% of the time.

 

Patents are a joke as Apple and IBM file 7000 different patent applications each year..... Just to troll smaller companies.....

 

Which in the end creates bogus lawsuits against Indie software developers