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Leonard Tramiel Exclusive Text Interview - Great Commodore & Atari Insight


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I still find it pretty disgusting Jane is comfortable making references to HR Giger personally recommending him. 

 

There's ample evidence out in the public domain that prove Whittaker was never part of Cyberdreams, never visited Giger in Switzerland with them, hence not being featured in any of the team photos during the games development.

 

We have an interview with Giger himself, where he appears less than impressed with Dark Seed itself. 

 

 

The man has passed for goodness sake, have a degree of basic respect for him and his work Jane. 

 

 

Same with Stan Winston, another person interviewed multiple times during his life, it wouldn't be impossible to find out who worked with Stan during the limited time frame  you claim your involvement with him and his team. 

 

In fact, we wouldn't even need to bother anyone who worked with the late Stan Winston. 

 

 

Let's not forget Jane  (as Andrew at the time) claimed to be part of the team at Rebellion working on Legions Of The Undead and that creature designs were being done by Stan Winston.

 

 

Whittaker then told people on Newsgroups, that Legions was nothing to do with him.

 

Topic:

 

Waiting for Legions of the Undead. 

 

 

Nothing to do with me that one

all the best

Andrew Whittaker

Programmer AVP

 

 

Nobody from Rebellion  has ever mentioned Stan Winston or the studio, being involved in any creature design, at any point. 

 

 

The Rebellion Legions of the Undead team. 

——- — — ——

Programmers: Dan Mitchell, Jamie Lokier

Artists: Rebellion art team. (Toby Harrison-Banfield, Stuart Wilson,

Justin Rae).

 

Shall we start by asking them Jane? 

 

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/jlokier

 
 

 

 

Are you on Linkedin MrUnwondering? 

 

 

If so, fancy dropping the above a polite message asking if Winston was ever involved in the project etc? 

 

Jane specifically stated in his interview with  Jet Horwitz, the creatures for the game were being designed in latex, by the man ( not the man and his team), responsible for the creatures in the Hellraiser movies, so Stan Winston. 

Edited by Lostdragon
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  • 2 months later...

I can confirm along with Jason McGanns Twitter post that this ordeal is indeed over. Jane did try a few times to drop the case under the requirement that we'd never be allowed to talk about it which would be just another way for Jane to claim victim to the public, but we knew we held all the cards and just called their bluff. Jane obviously never wanted this to reach a courtroom, could you imagine how quickly their claims would fall apart under that kind of scrutiny? No, eventually we managed to back Jane into a corner where they had no choice but to drop the case with no requirements, which leaves all involved able to talk about what happened. Jane will undoubtedly try to spin this as them 'graciously' dropping the case as an act of mercy or something, but we have all the correspondence and documentation now. The best thing Jane could do is be silent, take the massive loss and humiliation, and just walk away. 

Decades of lies, scams and fraud all ended at Janes own hands. Ironic really.

Edited by ThatGuyMike
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9I see Jane is still attempting the nothing to see here, everything is fine portrayal on Twitter.. 

 

The massively overhyped Athena Worlds out of money and absolutely jack sh#t to show for itself.. 

 

 

A court case lost and details of which hopefully will be made public before long.. 

 

 

Yet here's Jane banging the Atari and  Jaguar AVP drums as loud as he can. 

 

 

It literally is like a drowning man, clinging to some debris, totally adrift in the ocean. 

 

Nobody is coming to rescue you Jane, your ship has sunk to the very bottom, cling whilst you can. 

 

 

Screenshot_20221110_094139_com.android.chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20221110_094234_com.android.chrome.jpg

 

Edited by Lostdragon
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On 11/10/2022 at 9:48 AM, Lostdragon said:

A court case lost and details of which hopefully will be made public before long.. 

 

CLAIM NO: QB-2020-002060 Particulars of Claim - Jane Whittaker vs 4 Defendants

 

Jane Whittaker - Particulars of Claim (signed).pdf

 

 

 

Interestingly when this document was originally served upon the defendants Whittaker's statement of truth was invalid -

 

97322611_erroneousservedstatementoftruth.thumb.jpg.0acc4f33a900818580d1255293941efb.jpg

 

When this was pointed out, Whittaker simply declared it 'a mistake' and resigned it correctly (as shown in the .PDF). 

 

 

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Whittaker's Witness list -

 

image.thumb.png.508610a37ca4115872becf624c421f0f.png

 

 

Kevin Mathieson is an ex Chief Officer of Northumbria Police & Tayside Police and is currently CEO of Over The Wall a charity for disabled children and their families. He was Jane's business partner at Keystone Games.

 

Kevin Godley, yep the guy from 10cc. He is an advisor to Athena Worlds.

 

Jason Shuster is Jane's business partner at Athena Worlds.

 

Robert Sallibrass is managing director of sim publisher Excalibur games (and others). Excalibur released Jane's flight sim add on packs and Circus World.

 

Purple Hampton, listed by his nickname for some odd reason.

 

Julian Ward is a games industry lawyer, advisor to Athena Worlds. Jane described him as "our Chief Legal Officer" despite there being no official record of him in that role.

 

 

It'd be interesting to know how many of these knew they were listed as Witnesses?

 

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8 hours ago, MrUnwondering said:

Whittaker's Witness list -

 

image.thumb.png.508610a37ca4115872becf624c421f0f.png

 

Robert Sallibrass is managing director of sim publisher Excalibur games (and others). Excalibur released Jane's flight sim add on packs and Circus World.

 

So he actually did work on Flight Simulator?

 

Might be an easier list to list what he actually did do rather than what he made up.

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12 hours ago, JagChris said:

 

So he actually did work on Flight Simulator?

 

Might be an easier list to list what he actually did do rather than what he made up.

They made some expansions for Flight Simulator (personally Id also question how much work they did personally, considering during my time working at Keystone Jane also had me create work for both Flight Simulator And Train simulator, while also working on Homicide Detective. I was promised a team to lighten the load, it never happened to the work suffered badly as a result) but didnt work on the core Flight Simulator itself. The expansions have middling reviews at best. On at least one of the expansion on Steam Jane did the cheap and transparent trick of giving their own game a positive review under the guise of 'answering community feedback', because y'know discussion boards or the information page arent good enough for this. Definitely didnt sell however many millions Jane likes to claim (I believe at one point they claimed a higher number than the sales of the core simulator itself? At this point I think its worth wondering if Jane actually understands numbers and the order they progress in).


As for the witness list, I have no doubts that most of those names had no idea they were even being used as witnesses. Maybe 3 of them would have known? Shuster, Stalibrass and Ward maybe. Last time I spoke personally to Mathieson a couple years ago was when Jane first accused me of harassment. Mathieson called me up to make me aware of the situation, mentioned it was being dug into and any evidence collected. If this case is anything to go by, the only 'evidence' ever found was a retweet on a Twitter account that wasnt even mine. No joke, that was my entire link to this whole case. A single retweet I didnt even do because that Twitter account isnt mine. But back to the point, I wont say exactly what was said on the call between Mathieson and I but it was pretty evident he knew associating with Jane and having them lead Keystone Games was a mistake. Seemed to just want to be rid of Jane so Im pretty confident he wouldnt have turned up as a witness.

As Id mentioned before, it was real obvious Jane never wanted this to reach a courtroom. Id imagine the witness list would be part of it.

Edited by ThatGuyMike
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23 hours ago, MrUnwondering said:

Whittaker's Witness list -

 

image.thumb.png.508610a37ca4115872becf624c421f0f.png

 

 

Kevin Mathieson is an ex Chief Officer of Northumbria Police & Tayside Police and is currently CEO of Over The Wall a charity for disabled children and their families. He was Jane's business partner at Keystone Games.

 

Kevin Godley, yep the guy from 10cc. He is an advisor to Athena Worlds.

 

Jason Shuster is Jane's business partner at Athena Worlds.

 

Robert Sallibrass is managing director of sim publisher Excalibur games (and others). Excalibur released Jane's flight sim add on packs and Circus World.

 

Purple Hampton, listed by his nickname for some odd reason.

 

Julian Ward is a games industry lawyer, advisor to Athena Worlds. Jane described him as "our Chief Legal Officer" despite there being no official record of him in that role.

 

 

It'd be interesting to know how many of these knew they were listed as Witnesses?

 

I'd personally of always liked to of seen Purple Hampton asked directly about the conflicting statements made by himself (that Mike Beaton remained in the USA until Jaguar AVP was completed) and Jane (that Mike was suffering from being homesick, so he and Jane flew back to the UK, set up shop in Jane's parents house and crunch coded last stages of AVP from there). 

 

 

As that's not just a harmless anecdote created for a bit of light relief or a smudge of hazy memory getting a few wires crossed, it's a stark and deliberate attempt by one, to present events in a completely different light. 

 

Both accounts cannot be true and I woukd very much like to know why he didn't challenge Jane, when Jane was out there telling publications like Wirefrane and Retrogamer magazine, absolute lies. 

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2 hours ago, ThatGuyMike said:

They made some expansions for Flight Simulator (personally Id also question how much work they did personally, considering during my time working at Keystone Jane also had me create work for both Flight Simulator And Train simulator, while also working on Homicide Detective. I was promised a team to lighten the load, it never happened to the work suffered badly as a result) but didnt work on the core Flight Simulator itself. The expansions have middling reviews at best. On at least one of the expansion on Steam Jane did the cheap and transparent trick of giving their own game a positive review under the guise of 'answering community feedback', because y'know discussion boards or the information page arent good enough for this. Definitely didnt sell however many millions Jane likes to claim (I believe at one point they claimed a higher number than the sales of the core simulator itself? At this point I think its worth wondering if Jane actually understands numbers and the order they progress in).


As for the witness list, I have no doubts that most of those names had no idea they were even being used as witnesses. Maybe 3 of them would have known? Shuster, Stalibrass and Ward maybe. Last time I spoke personally to Mathieson a couple years ago was when Jane first accused me of harassment. Mathieson called me up to make me aware of the situation, mentioned it was being dug into and any evidence collected. If this case is anything to go by, the only 'evidence' ever found was a retweet on a Twitter account that wasnt even mine. No joke, that was my entire link to this whole case. A single retweet I didnt even do because that Twitter account isnt mine. But back to the point, I wont say exactly what was said on the call between Mathieson and I but it was pretty evident he knew associating with Jane and having them lead Keystone Games was a mistake. Seemed to just want to be rid of Jane so Im pretty confident he wouldnt have turned up as a witness.

As Id mentioned before, it was real obvious Jane never wanted this to reach a courtroom. Id imagine the witness list would be part of it.

And what I wonder became of his deliberately vague claims about working on The Sims, World Of War craft, misc Amiga Flight Sims for Microprose on the Amiga? 

 

Many more. 

 

Was he ever asked to provide evidence to support these claims? 

 

Name specific titles and roles? 

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19 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

And what I wonder became of his deliberately vague claims about working on The Sims, World Of War craft, misc Amiga Flight Sims for Microprose on the Amiga? 

 

Many more. 

 

Was he ever asked to provide evidence to support these claims? 

 

Name specific titles and roles? 

Most of the claims had little to no evidence of Janes involvement. A couple had some vague and disputable links. I mean Jane liked to show those bullfrog cards, a payslip and the Indestructibles design document as 'proof' of claims. Personally when I worked for Molyneux I could have just grabbed some random merch from his old games, photoshopped a couple documents and say I lead the design for Theme Park (and given that Jane once had me photoshop an article to better suit their narrative before, Im inclined to believe that wasnt the only time it happened) so I'd not use those as solid proof of anything. 

Janes short time at Atari was real, as was their involvement with AvP, outside of those though its highly debatable what they were involved in. At best, Jane inflated their position from QA or data entry to being the lead or VP, at worst they'd completely fabricate a new story. A common pattern that did emerge was Jane often didnt last long in any one place. Coincidentally that time seemed similar to probationary periods common in the industry. Remember Janes claims of Goldeneye 64? Strange how Jane never featured on the recent documentary there, right?

In the court case Jane showed literally no evidence for anything at all. In fact when it was Janes turn to show evidence (after our defences were written and evidence given), thats when Jane really started pushing to drop the case. Because the next step would have been in the court room. Kind of a strange move for the supposed victim right? All this libel and attacks, enough to warrant bringing the high court in, but no evidence? So strange. 

Edited by ThatGuyMike
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11 hours ago, ThatGuyMike said:

Janes short time at Atari was real, as was their involvement with AvP, outside of those though its highly debatable what they were involved in. At best, Jane inflated their position from QA or data entry to being the lead or VP, at worst they'd completely fabricate a new story. A common pattern that did emerge was Jane often didnt last long in any one place. Coincidentally that time seemed similar to probationary periods common in the industry. Remember Janes claims of Goldeneye 64? Strange how Jane never featured on the recent documentary there, right?

 

Since Jane like to throw around the names of Sam Tramiel & Jame "Purple" Hampton, I'm curious if there were any interviews with Hampton that mentioned Jane's actual role with AvP.

 

I watch a video where James Hampton had a talk about the development of AvP at Atari and it was interesting.  He did mention Andrew Whittaker as one of the programmers but while he had stories about each member of the AvP team (both Atari & Rebellion), he never mentioned anything about Andrew aside from just his name.  Might be something best left unmentioned in public...? :ponder:

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8 hours ago, MrMaddog said:

 

Since Jane like to throw around the names of Sam Tramiel & Jame "Purple" Hampton, I'm curious if there were any interviews with Hampton that mentioned Jane's actual role with AvP.

 

I watch a video where James Hampton had a talk about the development of AvP at Atari and it was interesting.  He did mention Andrew Whittaker as one of the programmers but while he had stories about each member of the AvP team (both Atari & Rebellion), he never mentioned anything about Andrew aside from just his name.  Might be something best left unmentioned in public...? :ponder:

Theres no interviews that come to mind there, but dont take my own memory as fact on this. We had to speak to a lot of people and read a whole lot of interviews, articles and documents to get the truest version of events we could find (even now there are gaps and confusions in certain areas) so some things may have slipped my mind during that time 😅 

I do recall some mentions in an old forum (someone else may be able to recall where this was) about Janes code on AvP having to be largely rewritten, and their time at Atari being cut short because they struggled to set up the equipment they were supposed to be adept with (I dont recall the equipment. Showing a bit of my ignorance here in saying Im no retro expert, just a modern dev who got caught in Janes web)

I believe the only interviews that really hyped up Janes (or Andrew, but I'll keep using 'Jane' for the sake of consistency here) roles in anything were from Jane, not many people outside Janes very closed circle have much good to say, if anything at all. Most stories beyond just a casual name drop usually mention some of Janes odd behaviours, and often those behaviours revolve around socks in some way or another. Theres some things I wish I never learned about Jane and socks, things you can only laugh about lest you let the memories traumatise you a bit *shudder*

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9 hours ago, ThatGuyMike said:

Theres no interviews that come to mind there, but dont take my own memory as fact on this. We had to speak to a lot of people and read a whole lot of interviews, articles and documents to get the truest version of events we could find (even now there are gaps and confusions in certain areas) so some things may have slipped my mind during that time 😅 

I do recall some mentions in an old forum (someone else may be able to recall where this was) about Janes code on AvP having to be largely rewritten, and their time at Atari being cut short because they struggled to set up the equipment they were supposed to be adept with (I dont recall the equipment. Showing a bit of my ignorance here in saying Im no retro expert, just a modern dev who got caught in Janes web)

I believe the only interviews that really hyped up Janes (or Andrew, but I'll keep using 'Jane' for the sake of consistency here) roles in anything were from Jane, not many people outside Janes very closed circle have much good to say, if anything at all. Most stories beyond just a casual name drop usually mention some of Janes odd behaviours, and often those behaviours revolve around socks in some way or another. Theres some things I wish I never learned about Jane and socks, things you can only laugh about lest you let the memories traumatise you a bit *shudder*

Are you thinking of this Rebellion coders account of Jane's AVP code? 

 

 

"Back in the very beginning of my games industry career (I'm guessing about 1994) I was working at Rebellion, on the Atari Jaguar version of Checkered Flag, when Andrew Whittaker turned up to work on Alien vs Predator, along with Mike Beaton. He turned up on a rainy day having walked from the station in his socks, as he didn't wear shoes for some inexplicable reason, and spent most of the day bemoaning the fact that nobody had been sent to collect him from the station. Amazingly he was taken on (I'm guessing his ability to bluff was already well honed by then) and so some months later when I was working in Atari's Sunnyvale offices on finishing off the game, he and Mike were there too. He claimed at some point that all of his work was done, and left Mike to work out why certain things were not working, and as I was at that time waiting for QA test results on my game I spent some time working with Mike to ascertain what was wrong. It took quite a while but I eventually discovered that Andrew had written the code (all hand-coded assembler) with hand coded jump instructions all over the place which resulted in the situation where a small change in one file to modify the behaviour of a standard enemy Alien had accidentally changed the behaviour of the Alien Queen as well, and resulted in it teleporting around the map at random.

All of this is of course something which everyone learns not to do when they first start coding - jumping about within the code just creates so many risks that in most companies I've worked at since it is specifically banned"

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2 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Are you thinking of this Rebellion coders account of Jane's AVP code? 

 

 

"Back in the very beginning of my games industry career (I'm guessing about 1994) I was working at Rebellion, on the Atari Jaguar version of Checkered Flag, when Andrew Whittaker turned up to work on Alien vs Predator, along with Mike Beaton. He turned up on a rainy day having walked from the station in his socks, as he didn't wear shoes for some inexplicable reason, and spent most of the day bemoaning the fact that nobody had been sent to collect him from the station. Amazingly he was taken on (I'm guessing his ability to bluff was already well honed by then) and so some months later when I was working in Atari's Sunnyvale offices on finishing off the game, he and Mike were there too. He claimed at some point that all of his work was done, and left Mike to work out why certain things were not working, and as I was at that time waiting for QA test results on my game I spent some time working with Mike to ascertain what was wrong. It took quite a while but I eventually discovered that Andrew had written the code (all hand-coded assembler) with hand coded jump instructions all over the place which resulted in the situation where a small change in one file to modify the behaviour of a standard enemy Alien had accidentally changed the behaviour of the Alien Queen as well, and resulted in it teleporting around the map at random.

All of this is of course something which everyone learns not to do when they first start coding - jumping about within the code just creates so many risks that in most companies I've worked at since it is specifically banned"

 

In other words, too many GOTOs (or JMPs) which creates spaghetti coding that's all over the place and hard to trace for efficiency.  Doesn't sound very professional and that's the guy who promised me a programming job for his company years ago!?

 

(I might have mentioned this before, but will again here because he tried to recruit me over IRC.)

 

Speaking of the socks thing mentioned before, he not only wore nylon leggins w/o any shoes but expected everyone working for him at Perceptions (in '97) to also wear them as a form as "solidarity".  Jane claimed he accidentally spilled hot water on his feet which scolded them and couldn't wear shoes.  I joked about showing up to the job interview wearing a plaid kilt as well and he thought I was serious!  Yeah, many red flags there...

 

I'm so glad I never went over to the UK for that job or even worked in the game industry since it's gotten so sleazy since then!  And Jane is still inciting young & naive people who want to break into the business without realizing how they're being exploited.  Other than that, I find this whole thing laughable Jane being a "one hit wonder" with AvP but wasn't even that good of a coder then...

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Did you know that during my time at Keystone, Theyd regularly try to start conversation on Slack about their socks? I tried to brush it aside as just 'weird dude' but anyone who responded would be treated to long discussions about their little girly socks, or how they hang off the ends of their feet. Jane tried their luck with one person and tried to get pictures of their socks (I wont say gender or role because Im sure they dont wanna be associated with this). Over time Id heard other stories of weird sock-based discussions and behaviours. I came to suspect it was a fetish thing, and normally I dont care what gets you going. But when you involve unwitting people? Eugh, freaking disgusting and perverse. 

As for the programming skills, I have my own anecdote (not sure if I'd shared this one before, forgive me if I have).

When I was working on Homicide Detective in Keystone, one particular asset required some additional code. Nothing complex, something I (an artist with a very base understanding of programming) could have cobbled together in an hour. In fact there was even a sample script in the Unity tutorial pages that gets fairly close to what I needed. But I figured the legendary programmer Jane Whittaker could do much quicker, much more effectively and more bespoke to my needs.

So I ask Jane for the script, gave a description of the needs and a couple hours later Jane provides a script. Literally the same one from the tutorial pages. I ended up having to modify it myself, and there raised the first flag of "why didnt Jane just do it properly?"

This was maybe a couple months into my work at Keystone so I didnt think too much on it at the time, but that one oddity kept sticking out whenever I learned something new that didnt quite fit Janes stories.

Edited by ThatGuyMike
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16 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Are you thinking of this Rebellion coders account of Jane's AVP code? 

 

 

"Back in the very beginning of my games industry career (I'm guessing about 1994) I was working at Rebellion, on the Atari Jaguar version of Checkered Flag, when Andrew Whittaker turned up to work on Alien vs Predator, along with Mike Beaton. He turned up on a rainy day having walked from the station in his socks, as he didn't wear shoes for some inexplicable reason, and spent most of the day bemoaning the fact that nobody had been sent to collect him from the station. Amazingly he was taken on (I'm guessing his ability to bluff was already well honed by then) and so some months later when I was working in Atari's Sunnyvale offices on finishing off the game, he and Mike were there too. He claimed at some point that all of his work was done, and left Mike to work out why certain things were not working, and as I was at that time waiting for QA test results on my game I spent some time working with Mike to ascertain what was wrong. It took quite a while but I eventually discovered that Andrew had written the code (all hand-coded assembler) with hand coded jump instructions all over the place which resulted in the situation where a small change in one file to modify the behaviour of a standard enemy Alien had accidentally changed the behaviour of the Alien Queen as well, and resulted in it teleporting around the map at random.

All of this is of course something which everyone learns not to do when they first start coding - jumping about within the code just creates so many risks that in most companies I've worked at since it is specifically banned"

Yeah thats the one Im thinking of! 

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On 11/15/2022 at 10:09 PM, MrMaddog said:

 

In other words, too many GOTOs (or JMPs) which creates spaghetti coding that's all over the place and hard to trace for efficiency.  Doesn't sound very professional and that's the guy who promised me a programming job for his company years ago!?

 

 

 

I find this whole thing laughable Jane being a "one hit wonder" with AvP but wasn't even that good of a coder then...

This is essentially the essence of Jane Whittaker in a nutshell, from a professional point of view. 

 

Jane, starting out as Andrew Whittaker, was NEVER  a good programmer. 

 

Starting at the earliest point in his career, 18 months with Graftgold ending with hom being sacked.

 

Steve Turner publicly stating that Andrew just couldn't program, so we let him go"

 

 

His time at Rebellion with Kingsley stating "One programmer came and went quite quickly, as he just couldn't do the maths."

 

 

He seemed far more suited to the minor  industry roles he landed such as data entry and plsytesting.. 

 

 

 

Whittaker milked Jaguar AVP to absolute death and if he'd been more restrained, in his approach, he'd of been far harder to bring down. 

 

 

His A. I routines killed AVP's frame rate, they were that flawed, but Whittaker had to spin it and claim they were used for N64 Goldeneye, PC AVP.. 

 

Taking credit for code written from scratch, by far more talented people. 

 

Just as he had when he took credit for a slew of Graftgold, Bullfrog, Microprose etc titles. 

 

Jane was always there claiming to of been a key part of big projects, which were the work of those with real talent. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, MrUnwondering said:

It was less than the 6 weeks probation, lasting closer to 2 weeks according to Steven Turner's records.

My bad Whittaker joined them when he was 18,as you say, his actual time with them, was only a few weeks. 

 

Yet he went onto take credit for so many titles by them, he never touched. 

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7 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Whittaker milked Jaguar AVP to absolute death and if he'd been more restrained, in his approach, he'd of been far harder to bring down.

 

He litterally claimed to single-handedly wrote AvP by himself on the IRC channels, I wished I kept log files had I known how absurd he was...

 

Quote

His A. I routines killed AVP's frame rate, they were that flawed, but Whittaker had to spin it and claim they were used for N64 Goldeneye, PC AVP.. 

jim carrey drinking GIF

Quote

Taking credit for code written from scratch, by far more talented people. 

 

Just as he had when he took credit for a slew of Graftgold, Bullfrog, Microprose etc titles. 

 

Jane was always there claiming to of been a key part of big projects, which were the work of those with real talent. 

 

 

It's bad enough he inflated a minor role, which he screwed up, for one game on his CV which ended up making him a "celebrity", but then he starts up these bogus development studios and recruit young & naive people (like I was at the time) only to leaving them hanging and unemployed while he trouts off to some Hollywood studio with his fake ass resume.

 

And he still does it now over Twitter!

 

The sad thing is even with the instant fact checking on the Internet that exposes Jane as a fraud and yet 'they', his loyal followers, refuse to see the sad truth because they want to be a programming "star" like Jane...

 

shaking my head no GIF by Elijah and Christine

Edited by MrMaddog
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