The Atari 2600+ is live for preorders!

[JetmanUK]

4 minutes ago, Stephen said:

That doesn't really make any sense.  The driving controller just pulses the left and right joystick inputs (it can push both together).  Diagonals work obviously, so if up + left can register, why wouldn't left + right register?

Right, that sounds super simple to implement. Not sure what's going on then. 🤷🏻

[Ben from Plaion]

7 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

Yeah that's what I've been thinking too, the 2600 had 'simple technology' controllers, you would assume them to be simple to emulate.

 

I've not actually looked, I wonder if Stella supports the Driving Controllers right now anyway. I have a USB Mayflash Megadrive adapter which I use with my laptop to play Stella with a CX40, I should plug a driving controller in and see what happens. 

Thing is the layer of software that deals with 2600+ controller inputs I beleive is not managed by Stella configs but by libretro. I'm going to look into it.

[RevEng]

Atari emulators often block "impossible" direction combinations from input when joysticks are selected for input, because it's really easy to press impossible directions when using a pc keyboard. The 2600 driving control generates impossible directions in some positions. Fixing driving controls might just be a matter of overriding that behaviour, since it's not needed here.

[+remowilliams]

A libretro-ized Stella seems like a strange choice for a device like this...  No wonder you're getting a 'NO' on keypad support.

[dashv]

Does anyone know if Stella's Stocking works on the 2600+ I’m thinking of buying it cause I want to play Stay Frosty.

[+Intellivision Master]

17 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Good news from Dr Karnov, every one of his 7800 PAL and NTSC games work.

 

I tried about 20 carts (mix 2600 7800 PAL NTSC) all fine.

 

Stuff like difficulty switch reversal, 7800 fire button reversal, PAL / NTSC auto cart detection works fine.

 

There is one further change missed in todays build regarding 7800 homebrew cart reading that needs to be added. 

 

Once I receive the build and test again I think we are good to go.

This is wonderful news.  Also, it'll be good to have 7800 homebrew support.

[Zoyous]

19 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Driving controller we look at in the new year, I asked about it before and got a 'not possible' response.

A programmer stating that something is not possible always strikes me as unusual. Eugene Jarvis shared a story once about how he earned his "Dr. J" nickname - by implementing sequenced flashing lights in a pinball game, something that the previous programmer had told their boss was impossible to accomplish.

[+Atari_Warlord]

9 hours ago, dashv said:

Does anyone know if Stella's Stocking works on the 2600+ I’m thinking of buying it cause I want to play Stay Frosty.

It doesn't load for me with the factory firmware.

[dashv]

19 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Driving Controller and Video Touch Pad incompatibility are frequently brought up. Its interesting to me as they are just electrical messages being sent to the machine and if the CX40 Joystick and CX30 Paddles work then whats up with that?

I don’t know if this helps, but a few weeks ago I was searching up and down for details on how the touchpad worked.

 

I found nothing. So I asked Bing AI and it told me this:

 

The Atari keypad worked by using a matrix of four rows and four columns of wires, each connected to a different pin on the controller port. Each key on the keypad was a switch that connected one row and one column when pressed. The Atari console could scan the keypad by sending signals to the rows and reading the columns, or vice versa. For example, if the Atari sent a high signal to the first row and read a high signal on the third column, it would know that the key labeled "3" was pressed. The Atari could also use the potentiometer lines to read the keypad, by using pull-up resistors and measuring the voltage drop across the switches. This way, the Atari could detect multiple key presses at the same time.

 

Another thing that would be cool to have would be Cheetah code support. It’s actually built in to Stella but might be tricky to implement.

 

That said, keypad support would do wonders for opening up accessibility and adding easy to access new features like Cheats, save/restore states, etc.

 

I imagine the switches and one button joystick make adding stuff like that a bear to access.

[+littaum]

20 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Driving Controller and Video Touch Pad incompatibility are frequently brought up. Its interesting to me as they are just electrical messages being sent to the machine and if the CX40 Joystick and CX30 Paddles work then whats up with that?

 

Keypad control is somewhat of a pain to do for the 2600 (certainly compared to joystick reading).   You have to configure some options, wait 400 microseconds, then read the inputs - then do this 4 total times for the 4 rows of buttons.  Very timing sensitive.  Darrell Spice, Jr. has some nice source code which shows how to read one of the keypad controllers:  https://spiceware.org/dds/040417.html

 

and if you use Stella to emulate keypads, to have it auto-detect the keypads you need to program this controller reading in a very specific way (Codebreaker & Star Raiders do this) - or else add in dummy bytes into your code in the needed specific order to force keypad detection, like so:

 

Stella_Detect_Keypad1:

    .byte $24

    .byte $09

    .byte $30

    .byte $24

    .byte $08

    .byte $30

 

Stella_Detect_Keypad2:

    .byte $24

    .byte $0A

    .byte $30

    .byte $24

    .byte $0B

    .byte $30

Edited December 24, 2023 by littaum
Forgot an extra l in Darrell

[DEANJIMMY]

6 minutes ago, littaum said:

 

Keypad control is somewhat of a pain to do for the 2600 (certainly compared to joystick reading).   You have to configure some options, wait 400 microseconds, then read the inputs - then do this 4 total times for the 4 rows of buttons.  Very timing sensitive.  Darrel Spice, Jr. has some nice source code which shows how to read one of the keypad controllers:  https://spiceware.org/dds/040417.html

 

and if you use Stella to emulate keypads, to have it auto-detect the keypads you need to program this controller reading in a very specific way (Codebreaker & Star Raiders do this) - or else add in dummy bytes into your code in the needed specific order to force keypad detection, like so:

 

Stella_Detect_Keypad1:

    .byte $24

    .byte $09

    .byte $30

    .byte $24

    .byte $08

    .byte $30

 

Stella_Detect_Keypad2:

    .byte $24

    .byte $0A

    .byte $30

    .byte $24

    .byte $0B

    .byte $30

@Ben from Plaion

If the keypad looks difficult, so what about true Trakball mode?

 

For TB quite a few games exist and are sold on Atariage! Centipede 7800 TB is so great, I once bought a 2nd TB for 2 player mode and Missile Command 2600 TB is so much better with TB controls.

 

The keypad works only for one game but that is really great and I own it with box, manual and keypad.

 

The driving controller is supported by 3 games?

 

Indy 500 (can be played with a joystick on 2600+)

Indy 500 XE (needs the driving controller).

Thrust+ (PAL version fails on V1.00 with fire pressed all the time, would work without DC).

 

TB support would be my favorite, to get Thrust+ running 2nd, DC support 3rd and Keypad 4th.

 

But I can understand many will have other priorities😊

 

 

[kjames_s_2000]

I'm no expert, but I've got to believe driving controller support is doable.  I know there isn't a potentiometer in the guts of the thing.  It's just a DB9 set of pins with one taken up by the button.  I believe it just uses the remaining 8 pins to send byte values.  The clockwise versus counter-clockwise direction can be determined by the sequence of byte values returned.

Having said that, I have literally no clue what all logic the emulator has in place.  I bet there have been years of hacks to attempt viable support for driving controller games (and possibly paddle games) via a joystick, xbox controllers, etc.  I'm a bit of a simpleton, but once I open the 2600+ on Christmas, the biggest thing I'll miss is INDY-500 ice racing with a driving controller.
 

[Ben from Plaion]

55 minutes ago, dashv said:

I don’t know if this helps, but a few weeks ago I was searching up and down for details on how the touchpad worked.

 

I found nothing. So I asked Bing AI and it told me this:

 

The Atari keypad worked by using a matrix of four rows and four columns of wires, each connected to a different pin on the controller port. Each key on the keypad was a switch that connected one row and one column when pressed. The Atari console could scan the keypad by sending signals to the rows and reading the columns, or vice versa. For example, if the Atari sent a high signal to the first row and read a high signal on the third column, it would know that the key labeled "3" was pressed. The Atari could also use the potentiometer lines to read the keypad, by using pull-up resistors and measuring the voltage drop across the switches. This way, the Atari could detect multiple key presses at the same time.

 

Another thing that would be cool to have would be Cheetah code support. It’s actually built in to Stella but might be tricky to implement.

 

That said, keypad support would do wonders for opening up accessibility and adding easy to access new features like Cheats, save/restore states, etc.

 

I imagine the switches and one button joystick make adding stuff like that a bear to access.

Thanks. Great info. We discussed the Video Touch Pad in this thread a while back, someone sent me the PCB schematics. It was very simple inside. Let's see what happens.

 

I've been playing with save states in some test firmware, it's activated by a press of a couple of levers which pauses the machine and brings up a rudimentary UI. I absolutely hate it. It's just so not in keeping with how games were played back in the day, it defiles the machine.

[Ben from Plaion]

49 minutes ago, littaum said:

 

Keypad control is somewhat of a pain to do for the 2600 (certainly compared to joystick reading).   You have to configure some options, wait 400 microseconds, then read the inputs - then do this 4 total times for the 4 rows of buttons.  Very timing sensitive.  Darrel Spice, Jr. has some nice source code which shows how to read one of the keypad controllers:  https://spiceware.org/dds/040417.html

 

and if you use Stella to emulate keypads, to have it auto-detect the keypads you need to program this controller reading in a very specific way (Codebreaker & Star Raiders do this) - or else add in dummy bytes into your code in the needed specific order to force keypad detection, like so:

 

Stella_Detect_Keypad1:

    .byte $24

    .byte $09

    .byte $30

    .byte $24

    .byte $08

    .byte $30

 

Stella_Detect_Keypad2:

    .byte $24

    .byte $0A

    .byte $30

    .byte $24

    .byte $0B

    .byte $30

Thanks for the info

[Ben from Plaion]

23 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said:

@Ben from Plaion

If the keypad looks difficult, so what about true Trakball mode?

 

For TB quite a few games exist and are sold on Atariage! Centipede 7800 TB is so great, I once bought a 2nd TB for 2 player mode and Missile Command 2600 TB is so much better with TB controls.

 

The keypad works only for one game but that is really great and I own it with box, manual and keypad.

 

The driving controller is supported by 3 games?

 

Indy 500 (can be played with a joystick on 2600+)

Indy 500 XE (needs the driving controller).

Thrust+ (PAL version fails on V1.00 with fire pressed all the time, would work without DC).

 

TB support would be my favorite, to get Thrust+ running 2nd, DC support 3rd and Keypad 4th.

 

But I can understand many will have other priorities😊

 

 

Trackball needs to happen! We keep talking about it.

[+remowilliams]

5 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said:

I've been playing with save states in some test firmware, it's activated by a press of a couple of levers which pauses the machine and brings up a rudimentary UI. I absolutely hate it. It's just so not in keeping with how games were played back in the day, it defiles the machine.

 

And thus the territory is entered where it becomes something of a theological debate for people as to the 'true' intent and 'pure' purpose of the device.

 

I just modified a real 2600 for the first time with a pause button.  Does that violate the spirit?  In other words, opinions here are going to.. vary 😄

[protomank]

49 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Thanks. Great info. We discussed the Video Touch Pad in this thread a while back, someone sent me the PCB schematics. It was very simple inside. Let's see what happens.

 

I've been playing with save states in some test firmware, it's activated by a press of a couple of levers which pauses the machine and brings up a rudimentary UI. I absolutely hate it. It's just so not in keeping with how games were played back in the day, it defiles the machine.

I do understand how you feel, but given it is an option, you do not have to use it, and it opens the door for options like video-filter, I do believe it is a good thing. Most won't even know it is there.

I believe it would be way worse adding a UI while boting the system, for example.

[JetmanUK]

1 hour ago, DEANJIMMY said:

@Ben from Plaion

If the keypad looks difficult, so what about true Trakball mode?

 

For TB quite a few games exist and are sold on Atariage! Centipede 7800 TB is so great, I once bought a 2nd TB for 2 player mode and Missile Command 2600 TB is so much better with TB controls.

 

The keypad works only for one game but that is really great and I own it with box, manual and keypad.

 

The driving controller is supported by 3 games?

 

Indy 500 (can be played with a joystick on 2600+)

Indy 500 XE (needs the driving controller).

Thrust+ (PAL version fails on V1.00 with fire pressed all the time, would work without DC).

 

TB support would be my favorite, to get Thrust+ running 2nd, DC support 3rd and Keypad 4th.

 

But I can understand many will have other priorities😊

 

 

I'd like to make a point regarding the driving controller that I think is key...

 

Yes, we are not talking about a controller that is supported in tens or more of games, BUT... it is a transformative experience using it. Indy 500 becomes one of the top titles on the console, it's that good.

 

I see support of them on the 2600 Plus (which is not just another dumb emulation box but an actual new version of a classic console and made to run old games and hardware, not to mention that it's Atari's flagship product too) as an essential feature and preservation of an almost lost to time game and controller. Sure, I've played Indy 500 with a joystick and it's fine, but it just doesn't do it justice. 

 

Also, new games could be made which use it anyway, like the paddle bundle, a driving bundle could be real fun. Just my thoughts. Ideally all hardware should be supported, if possible. I get that may be a tall task. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by JetmanUK

[Brad_from_the_80s]

1 hour ago, Ben from Plaion said:

I've been playing with save states in some test firmware, it's activated by a press of a couple of levers which pauses the machine and brings up a rudimentary UI. I absolutely hate it. It's just so not in keeping with how games were played back in the day, it defiles the machine.

 

Yes.

[+Neon Wraith]

1 hour ago, Ben from Plaion said:

I've been playing with save states in some test firmware, it's activated by a press of a couple of levers which pauses the machine and brings up a rudimentary UI. I absolutely hate it. It's just so not in keeping with how games were played back in the day, it defiles the machine.

As the target market for this machine is an older demographic, and by nature our bladders will be getting smaller over time, a pause button may be a welcome addition for some. 😁  Beer, game, pee, repeat!

[protomank]

3 minutes ago, joeatari1 said:

As the target market for this machine is an older demographic, and by nature our bladders will be getting smaller over time, a pause button may be a welcome addition for some. 😁  Beer, game, pee, repeat!

That is why I think a save function would be welcome. I do love to play 2600 now and then, but I do not have the time or patience to start every time from the start some long games (such as Pitefall or Keystone Kapers), so I do use emulation and save-states.

Of course, without the UI, it would need extra switches in the console (Atari 2600 Sixer+?). Maybe the console could save the state when powered off, then restoring it on power on if you hold a button? That option removes the UI but keeps functionality for saves. Other combinations in boot could change options, like button + up would change the video filter.

Just my 2 cents.

[+karri]

1 hour ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Trackball needs to happen! We keep talking about it.

I would just LOVE to code games for a trackball. For the last 20 years I have only used trackballs for work and at home.

[dashv]

As a collector/enthusiast/preservationist I agree with JetmanUK.

 

So many experiences are being lost to time. The reason some of these games hit so hard at the time and stuck with us isn’t always due to pure nostalgia.

 

Sometimes there was nuance and ingenuity that provided a novel experience.

 

ROMs can be loaded, the game can boot, but those don’t always lead to a recreation of the original overall experience.

 

I have OG Atari’s and a Retron 77. But I really appreciate and feel that the Atari 2600+ is the closest we’ve come so far to bringing back the original experience on new hardware that looks and feels like the original.

 

It’s really darn close. Cheats, Saves, Pause would all be welcome enhancements.

 

But sincere thank you for what we’ve got so far.

 

I wish Atari would someday partner with Analogue.

 

An Analogue Atari that played 2600, 7800, and 5200 and supported all the peripherals would be absolutely wild. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by dashv

[Bakasama]

2 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Trackball needs to happen! We keep talking about it.

Does that mean Atari could make a mouse if they get the TB working on the 2600+?

[atariman72]

 

3 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Thanks. Great info. We discussed the Video Touch Pad in this thread a while back, someone sent me the PCB schematics. It was very simple inside. Let's see what happens.

 

I've been playing with save states in some test firmware, it's activated by a press of a couple of levers which pauses the machine and brings up a rudimentary UI. I absolutely hate it. It's just so not in keeping with how games were played back in the day, it defiles the machine.

 

I like the idea of the 2600+ being 'pure' without too many modern bells and whistles.  Priority being to get as many games and official Atari controllers (trakball, driving paddle, kepyad) working as possible.  

Otherwise, it would be a bit like having a record player that could skip songs

 

It's a brilliant recreation of the original 2600, thanks for all your hard work in bringing it to market Ben.