+scorpio_ny Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) Ok! I have a new update on the crystal saga. I think I have found a solution. Before I begin, I want to thank @_The Doctor__ the information on adjusting the crystals. This led me down a rabbit hole of research on the subject and that some crystals may not have the tight tolerances may need adjustment. And @Chrisa850 for pointing out that there may be tight tolerances need when outputting the composite signal since they share the same channel. I put my oscilloscope on the crystal that was not working in composite mode and saw that it was working from 3.584Mhz (sometimes dipping down to 3.571 From my research (and I want to point out, that I am novice to this topic) that if add capacitance in parallel to the crystal, it lowers the frequency. So for a test, I added on each leg of the crystal a .22pf ceramic capacitor to see what would happened. When I did this, I got color on composite! So I connected my computer to SVideo and there was a color too! When I put my scope, it now starts at 3.57 MHz ocasionally going into 3.584 Mhz. My lack of knowledge leaves me unsure if this is an optimal solution. I am waiting on crystals from Console 5 to if they work right off the bat. @reifsnyderb & @Jfcatari: Can you do please do some experiments with the non Atari crystals in the same way to see if this works for you? Edited March 28 by scorpio_ny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 3 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: Ok! I have a new update on the crystal saga. I think I have found a solution. Before I begin, I want to thank @_The Doctor__ the information on adjusting the crystals. This led me down a rabbit hole of research on the subject and that some crystals may not have the tight tolerances may need adjustment. And @Chrisa850 for pointing out that there may be tight tolerances need when outputting the composite signal since they share the same channel. I put my oscilloscope on the crystal that was not working in composite mode and saw that it was working from 3.584Mhz (sometimes dipping down to 3.571 From my research (and I want to point out, that I am novice to this topic) that if add capacitance in parallel to the crystal, it lowers the frequency. So for a test, I added on each leg of the crystal a .22pf ceramic capacitor to see what would happened. When I did this, I got color on composite! So I connected my computer to SVideo and there was a color too! When I put my scope, it now starts at 3.57 MHz ocasionally going into 5.84 Mhz. My lack of knowledge leaves me unsure if this is an optimal solution. I am waiting on crystals from Console 5 to if they work right off the bat. @reifsnyderb & @Jfcatari: Can you do please do some experiments with the non Atari crystals in the same way to see if this works for you? Nice troubleshooting! How are the capacitors wired? Are they from the leg of the crystal to ground? Also, to confirm, that is 0.22pF ? Best Regards, Brian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said: Nice troubleshooting! How are the capacitors wired? Are they from the leg of the crystal to ground? Also, to confirm, that is 0.22pF ? Best Regards, Brian Hi @reifsnyderb, Yes. This is how I wired it (I was doing different tests): I made a mistake. This what I had used: 22pf https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/A220J15C0GH5TAA?qs=x%2FgbKjZ2T%2FNkboQf1eaA0g%3D%3D Edited March 28 by scorpio_ny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 29 Author Share Posted March 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said: Hi @reifsnyderb, Yes. This is how I wired it (I was doing different tests): I made a mistake. This what I had used: 22pf https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/A220J15C0GH5TAA?qs=x%2FgbKjZ2T%2FNkboQf1eaA0g%3D%3D I'll run a test and see what happens. If this is the solution, it will go on the 1.2 board revision as an option. 🙂 Edited March 29 by reifsnyderb 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said: I'll run a test and see what happens. If this is the solution, it will go on the 1.2 board revision as an option. 🙂 In one video which I watched during my research, the person used an trim cap and an inductor so the frequency can be fine tuned: I am not sure if it is an appropriate application for the motherboard, but it was very instructional. And here is another tip that may be helpful if one does not have an oscillator. I tried it and it seemed to work: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfcatari Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 7 hours ago, scorpio_ny said: @Chrisa850: So, since the composite signal is mixed on the same channel, the signal ratio is much more critical, correct? @Jfcatari: I received the new crystals and it did not work. Interestingly, the frequency was actually correct. There seems to be a typo in the Mouser listing. I tried it and I got the same result. Let me know if you have the same results. I ordered the part that @Chrisa850 referenced from Console 5 to see if that one works. @scorpio_ny Thanks for reporting that the sets from Mouser did not work. I just got mine today and was going to test them. Based on the info above it sounds like the frequencies were wrong on the listing I shared. I have found both a 600XL and an 800XL using the C016010 with this 'adjustment' When a C061090 is used in an 600XL or and 800XL no 'adjustment' is needed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfcatari Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 (edited) @reifsnyderb @scorpio_ny @Chrisa850 @olix OK....I just got back from running all of the following tests. Using a STOCK Atari 800XL (CO61851 Rev D) which had an original C061090, with composite out to a tube TV. This 800XL did NOT have chroma hooked up so I could not test svideo. Atari CO61090 Worked perfectly Mouser CY3DM 3 out of 5 produced color (2 rolling B/W), but was on the green side, even with a POT adjustment Mouser LFXTAL016962Bulk Worked perfectly Atari CO16010 Worked, but seemed to be on the green side, even with a POT adjustment Digikey MP036S B/W (original I had used in the Remake 800XL), but with 22pf on each leg, worked perfectly Digikey ECS-35-17-1X Worked perfectly Digikey ECS-35-17-4X Worked perfectly (This is used in the Atari NUC) Note: I did not want to pull the crystal from my Remake 800XL which is using a CO61090 for the test tonight. Edited March 29 by Jfcatari 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 9 hours ago, Jfcatari said: @reifsnyderb @scorpio_ny @Chrisa850 @olix OK....I just got back from running all of the following tests. Using a STOCK Atari 800XL (CO61851 Rev D) which had an original C061090, with composite out to a tube TV. This 800XL did NOT have chroma hooked up so I could not test svideo. Atari CO61090 Worked perfectly Mouser CY3DM 3 out of 5 produced color (2 rolling B/W), but was on the green side, even with a POT adjustment Mouser LFXTAL016962Bulk Worked perfectly Atari CO16010 Worked, but seemed to be on the green side, even with a POT adjustment Digikey MP036S B/W (original I had used in the Remake 800XL), but with 22pf on each leg, worked perfectly Digikey ECS-35-17-1X Worked perfectly Digikey ECS-35-17-4X Worked perfectly (This is used in the Atari NUC) Note: I did not want to pull the crystal from my Remake 800XL which is using a CO61090 for the test tonight. @Jfcatari Thanks for the info! Did you try the capacitors with Mouser CY3DM? Would you be able to update the BOM to reflect some of the changes we discovered? Maybe make a section just for the crystals with different options? Looking at your list, it seems we had some bad luck with the choice of crystals. It makes sense that not all manufacturers will have the same tolerances for their products in terms of the specs . Now we know the need to account for that possibility. I am currently waiting on some crystals from Console 5 to test and will report back. I need to order some more items from Digikey anyway, so I will order the ones you flagged as working from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfcatari Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 @scorpio_ny Keep in mind my previous tests were all on an original Atari 800XL that had the CO61090 Crystal. I am assuming that the Remake 800XL should present the same findings. I did not try The Mouser CY3DM with the 22pf caps. I only tested with the Digikey MP036S with the caps as you figured out. I can update the BOM and perhaps we need to get this info to @reifsnyderb so that he can add it to the build docs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 29 Author Share Posted March 29 40 minutes ago, Jfcatari said: @scorpio_ny Keep in mind my previous tests were all on an original Atari 800XL that had the CO61090 Crystal. I am assuming that the Remake 800XL should present the same findings. I did not try The Mouser CY3DM with the 22pf caps. I only tested with the Digikey MP036S with the caps as you figured out. I can update the BOM and perhaps we need to get this info to @reifsnyderb so that he can add it to the build docs. Have you done any tests, with the crystal legs in series, like what @scorpio_ny has done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfcatari Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said: Have you done any tests, with the crystal legs in series, like what @scorpio_ny has done? @reifsnyderb Yes I have tested the following Using an original Atari 800XL that had the Atari CO61090 Installed Digikey MP036S got B/W on composite video to tube TV. Installed Digikey MP036S with 22pF on each leg, got good color on composite video to tube TV. I did NOT try the caps with any of the other crystals that I have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 On the 576NUC+ and the 1088XLD I got away with some very simplified crystal oscillators, but the key words are "got away with". In reality a much more reliable circuit looks something like this... And I found that the 74HC14 part is more likely to work than the 74HCT14 version. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 29 Author Share Posted March 29 (edited) Here's the current oscillator circuit: U19 is really a 74ACHT14, not a 74LS14. Edited March 29 by reifsnyderb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olix Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 On 3/5/2024 at 1:24 PM, reifsnyderb said: Here's what I have on mine. OS R3 (with self-test banking fixed) and Atari BASIC C on bank 1. Bank 2 should have a pre-release of OS R 6.2 and Altirra BASIC 1.58. ROM.BIN 128 kB · 18 downloads What means "self-test banking fixed" and what is OS R6.2 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 30 Author Share Posted March 30 1 hour ago, olix said: What means "self-test banking fixed" and what is OS R6.2 ? Atari's OS R3 had a bug whereby it didn't properly test the extended memory banks. The wrong banking bytes were in the table. This was fixed. OS R6.2 (pre release) is an OS with bug fixes and other features. For example, it has HIAS high speed SIO, built-in support for the numeric keypad handler, a re-written self test, built-in wozmon, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olix Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 Oh, that sounds exciting. Is there more information about this OS version 6.2 here in the forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 30 Author Share Posted March 30 16 minutes ago, olix said: Oh, that sounds exciting. Is there more information about this OS version 6.2 here in the forum? https://forums.atariage.com/topic/347696-compiling-a-new-atari-os/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 (edited) By the way @reifsnyderb, the mother board works great! I am using it all these non-Atari chips and it works like champ. It works with Subcart and the original Side3 cart. I have been playing marathon sessions with Robotron and no issues. I am just waiting to get the other crystal from Console 5 to do some more testing to then finalizing the setup. Is there anything else you want me to test on it? Edited March 30 by scorpio_ny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 30 Author Share Posted March 30 1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said: By the way @reifsnyderb, the mother board works great! I am using it all these non-Atari chips and it works like champ. It works with Subcart and the original Side3 cart. I have been playing marathon sessions with Robotron and no issues. I am just waiting to get the other crystal from Console 5 to do some more testing to then finalizing the setup. Is there anything else you want me to test on it? I don't know of anything. My main thought is that if the fix is to add capacitors in series to the crystal legs that I'll just make up a modified crystal footprint with that option. I've been using my board and I haven't found any issues yet. It's good to hear your board is working well! 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfcatari Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 (edited) I second the Remake 800XL from @reifsnyderb. I have been using it for all of my testing for sdrives, sdrive maxes, a8pico carts, and Fujinets. It is my goto machine! I am happy to see everyone working together to sort out the crystal mystery as well. I see these forums as a wonderful place for people to share ideas and problems that we run into. We can also work together solving problems! Edited March 31 by Jfcatari 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olix Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 I also fitted the first board and everything worked straight away. At least almost straight away, because at first everything remained dark - but the error was quickly found: I had mixed up Pokey and PIA. So it was my mistake. Fortunately, the two ICs were not damaged. So I installed the two components correctly: And everything worked. By the way, this is my first NTSC Atari, since I live in Germany I usually only have PAL devices. I will build the next 800XL Adcanced board in PAL. @reifsnyderb : Many thanks for your great work and especially for the support with shipping to Germany 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfcatari Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 @olix Nice to see another one running well! What crystal did you use on your build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 2 hours ago, olix said: I also fitted the first board and everything worked straight away. At least almost straight away, because at first everything remained dark - but the error was quickly found: I had mixed up Pokey and PIA. So it was my mistake. Fortunately, the two ICs were not damaged. So I installed the two components correctly: And everything worked. By the way, this is my first NTSC Atari, since I live in Germany I usually only have PAL devices. I will build the next 800XL Adcanced board in PAL. @reifsnyderb : Many thanks for your great work and especially for the support with shipping to Germany Thank you! Your build looks great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olix Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 4 hours ago, Jfcatari said: @olix .. What crystal did you use on your build? I used one from a shop in Germany: 3,5795-HC18: Standardquarz, Grundton, 3,579545 MHz bei reichelt elektronik With S-VIDEO on an LCD screen, I have a color picture. But I have not yet tested a composite signal or a CRT TV. I will test that in the next few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfcatari Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 2 hours ago, olix said: I used one from a shop in Germany: 3,5795-HC18: Standardquarz, Grundton, 3,579545 MHz bei reichelt elektronik With S-VIDEO on an LCD screen, I have a color picture. But I have not yet tested a composite signal or a CRT TV. I will test that in the next few days. Thanks for reporting and being able to test composite to a tube CRT. With all of they various crystals we can be sure to firm up the parts list and know what works and what works with tweaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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