How long until the FPGA fad runs out?

[phoenixdownita]

https://semiwiki.com/fpga/290990-reverse-engineering-the-first-fpga-chip-xilinx-xc2064/

 

“The FPGA was invented by Ross Freeman who co-founded Xilinx in 1984 and introduced the first FPGA, the XC2064. This FPGA is much simpler than modern FPGAs—it contains just 64 logic blocks, compared to thousands or millions in modern FPGAs—but it led to the current multi-billion-dollar FPGA industry. Because of its importance, the XC2064 is in the Chip Hall of Fame.”

 

Definitely not a fad, as per old videogames usage it’s such a fringe use that it’s practically irrelevant to the FPGA industry itself.

 

Edited May 30 by phoenixdownita

[+GoldLeader]

 

 

 

N  E  V  E  R

[+batari]

9 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Whether is theoretical possible is kinda irrelevant since nobody has released a product using software emulation that can read carts in real time and likely never will, because at that point they would likely just use FPGA.  

In regards to LCD vs Plasma.  Yeah, I will agree for watching Sports/TV shows in the afternoon LCDs would have that advantage to fight glare.  

 

 

5 hours ago, M-S said:

Mostly likely because no one in the console scene has tried it yet, not an inherent flaw on software emulation that makes it harder to develop. I know that in the computer scene some people were trying this concept a while ago. There is also the community built Atari console which was being worked after the 2600+ came out.

There are projects out there that are emulation machines with the capability to "play" carts in real time (not just dump them), with only a microcontroller, no FPGA. One that I am aware of is open source project and you can put one together now with easy-to-find parts.

[SegaSnatcher]

5 hours ago, Cardboard76 said:

yeah, the collectors market is pretty nuts tbh. me? i'm just some guy who occasionally plays Atari and maybe talks here once in a blue moon. i don't really think about buying games since i'd rather just spend money on a HarmonyCart than collect individual games. also i feel like Atari could probably pull off an FPGA box thing that can run carts in real time for around $150 or something since FPGAs themselves are, like, $100 or less these days.  

An FPGA that could handle an Atari 2600/7800 core would probably cost like $30 at most and that isn't taking into consideration discount for bulk purchase.  

[SegaSnatcher]

5 minutes ago, batari said:

 

There are projects out there that are emulation machines with the capability to "play" carts in real time (not just dump them), with only a microcontroller, no FPGA. One that I am aware of is open source project and you can put one together now with easy-to-find parts.

Do you have a link?  Would be interested to look into that.  

[+batari]

I've always understood that FPGAs are more of a development tool than a final part, when used in mass-market products. Unless something has changed recently, I've always understood that a mass-market item produced in the millions is very unlikely to have an actual FPGA inside. They are too expensive. Such products may have been developed with FPGAs, but the final product will usually be custom silicon: an ASIC based on the hardware design.

 

On the other hand, microcontrollers are so cheap that mass-market products often will have off-the-shelf microcontrollers.

[+batari]

7 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Do you have a link?  Would be interested to look into that.  

https://forums.atariage.com/clubs/88-stellart/

 

They are using a Raspberry Pi, I forget which board, but last time I checked it was playing most carts.

[phoenixdownita]

32 minutes ago, batari said:

https://forums.atariage.com/clubs/88-stellart/

 

They are using a Raspberry Pi, I forget which board, but last time I checked it was playing most carts.

I thought that the Max 2 is closer to an fpga than it is to a cpld (maybe I misunderstood their LE to microcell doc, been a long while) … if they choose to go down that route (I thought the max 2 was eol years ago).

 

But the comment there is fitting:

“I also like the idea of using MAX-II for RIOT/TIA. It is a better solution for any complex time critical logic. ”

 

 

PS: https://cdrdv2-public.intel.com/655146/max2_mii51002.pdf yup The LEs have the typical fpga LE make up.

Edited May 30 by phoenixdownita

[+batari]

9 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

I thought that the Max 2 is closer to an fpga than it is to a cpld … if they chose to go down that route (I thought the max 2 was eol years ago).

 

But the comment there is fitting:

“I also like the idea of using MAX-II for RIOT/TIA. It is a better solution for any complex time critical logic. ”

They had it working without any extra hardware (except for level converters) before anyone talked of CPLDs.

 

I recall that without extra hardware, not all mappers would work and some ran less than 100% speed. There is also talk of adding a second microcontroller instead of the CPLD to address this. (though, I am sure it could all be solved if they used a more powerful microcontroller in the first place.)

 

EDIT: I recall that it was only the very complex mappers that wouldn't work yet, and frankly some of those have been reported not to work on the current FPGA devices out there either.

[Matt_B]

1 hour ago, batari said:

I've always understood that FPGAs are more of a development tool than a final part, when used in mass-market products. Unless something has changed recently, I've always understood that a mass-market item produced in the millions is very unlikely to have an actual FPGA inside. They are too expensive. Such products may have been developed with FPGAs, but the final product will usually be custom silicon: an ASIC based on the hardware design.

 

On the other hand, microcontrollers are so cheap that mass-market products often will have off-the-shelf microcontrollers.

No, nothing's changed. It's just that most FPGA-based consoles are more likely to be selling in the tens of thousands, rather than the millions, where the economies of scale from making ASICs start to pay off.

 

If you can do what you want with a microcontroller though, or even a low-end SoC, that's probably going to be cheaper at all scales of production.

[+x=usr(1536)]

FPGA4LYF, YO

[+5-11under]

6 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

When I learned programming 40 years ago, I thought nothing was magic anymore.  

At the same time, I still think it's magic. Moreso if everything works.

[Matt_B]

Magic is when your code builds first time and also does what you want it to.

[Cardboard76]

9 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

An FPGA that could handle an Atari 2600/7800 core would probably cost like $30 at most and that isn't taking into consideration discount for bulk purchase.  

that's certainly cheap. then again, Atari 2600/7800 hardware is stupid easy to emulate, so the price does make sense.

[Cardboard76]

14 hours ago, M-S said:

You are looking at some pretty unrealistic and unviable profit margins, it's not just the cost of FPGA board, there's the shell, the box, the controllers and licensing. The 2600+ probably doesn't even cost $40 to make and they sold it for $129.

And the $100 or less FPGA's either don't have enough LUTs for an Atari or don't have enough pins for a cartridge port.

tbh considering how easy it is to emulate Atari 2600/7800 stuff, both with emulation and FPGA cores, i'd imagine they'd be able to find a competent FPGA device that runs 2600/7800 cores for, like, $30 to $40 or something like that.

[Zoyous]

8 hours ago, Cardboard76 said:

tbh considering how easy it is to emulate Atari 2600/7800 stuff, both with emulation and FPGA cores, i'd imagine they'd be able to find a competent FPGA device that runs 2600/7800 cores for, like, $30 to $40 or something like that.

It's easy to emulate the 2600 and 7800? So maybe you'll be developing an emulator or FPGA for them? 😉

[Gentlegamer]

18 hours ago, batari said:

I've always understood that FPGAs are more of a development tool than a final part, when used in mass-market products. Unless something has changed recently, I've always understood that a mass-market item produced in the millions is very unlikely to have an actual FPGA inside. They are too expensive. Such products may have been developed with FPGAs, but the final product will usually be custom silicon: an ASIC based on the hardware design.

 

On the other hand, microcontrollers are so cheap that mass-market products often will have off-the-shelf microcontrollers.

Flash carts such as the old SD2SNES were able to add functionality post release through mere firmware, such as Super FX chip support.

[+bent_pin]

17 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

FPGA4LYF, YO

2231 hours in MS Paint

[John Stamos Mullet]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:44 AM, Cardboard76 said:

tbh considering how easy it is to emulate Atari 2600/7800 stuff, both with emulation and FPGA cores, i'd imagine they'd be able to find a competent FPGA device that runs 2600/7800 cores for, like, $30 to $40 or something like that.

Nope. 

[John Stamos Mullet]

On 5/29/2024 at 9:16 PM, SegaSnatcher said:

An FPGA that could handle an Atari 2600/7800 core would probably cost like $30 at most and that isn't taking into consideration discount for bulk purchase.  

lol, no.

[roots.genoa]

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

lol, no.

Yes, it would. Snatcher was only talking about the FPGA circuit that would cost $30 (I think the ones inside the Analogue Pocket are not much more expensive). But of course the whole system would cost a lot more. $100 at least imho.

[John Stamos Mullet]

7 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

Yes, it would. Snatcher was only talking about the FPGA circuit that would cost $30 (I think the ones inside the Analogue Pocket are not much more expensive). But of course the whole system would cost a lot more. $100 at least imho.

that's the whole point, though. That's like saying the Raspberry Pi is cheap because it only needs a micro SD card, and they are only $10, but the board itself, plus a heatsink/case, and power cord is going to cost you $100.

[roots.genoa]

I totally get that. That's like when people claimed that the components of the Wii cost less than $100 or something. It's not like they're sold in a bag and you have to build your system and program its OS yourself. 🙄

[spacecadet]

There was a point when we'd have been asking at what point does the software emulation fad run out? After all, original hardware is cheap and easy to get...

 

FPGA is not a "fad". There was a time when I might have thought it was, but the MiSTER changed that, and then we got a bunch of other relatively cheap FPGA-based stuff afterwards. And it has clear advantages over software emulation. I, like many other people, think it's worth paying a little bit of a premium for an FPGA-based machine vs. something like the "NES on a chip" machines that were all the rage a few years ago.

 

I'll always be more of an original hardware guy, but I dabble in software emulation and I'll probably dabble in FPGA's as they continue to come down in price. FPGA's IMO have a permanent place in retro gaming.

[MrBeefy]

Oooo saw the thread bumped. Is the fad over? Can I find Analogue Pockets for cheap buried in the desert?

 

No? Well carry on with your fads you hipsters!

 

And STAY OFF MY LAWN!