Scott Stilphen Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 This is my other 'holy grail' of Easter eggs. When this is found, I can retire The Raiders entry on my site has all the info I know about it (check out the 2nd and 4th "hidden message" entries). Here's a picture of it: (forgive the lousy quality- all I have is a photo-copy of it). I enlarged the graphic to show what it looks like. In the original, the white area is actually light-blue. The "J" part is probably just a 'hole' (same color as the valley background). Btw, if anyone has a scan of the original, please send me a copy. It's possible the JD graphic may not be in the game. When I interviewed HSW back in 97, he mentioned that he thought E.T. was the first time that a graphics designer was credited with a signature (then again, he said the letters JMD appeared in E.T.). The EG screenshot is real, and last year HSW confirmed it when Classic Gamer mag contacted him about it (issue #3- pg. 34). HSW also mentions finding a totally differnt method for finding the YAR - inside a mesa! (Classic Gamer mag - #2, pg. 58). Whether or not this is true is unknown (he might have been thinking about the YAR flying up in E.T.) and I've only found one graphic image for the YAR (animating it would require at least 2). Couple other notes: Luc Pycke found a second key graphic in the code, which is different from the one that appears in the game, and I found that there are actually 2 different grenade images- why I have no idea. I'll post the code info for these... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasty Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Scott, I don't know if this RotLA walkthrough from gamefaqs.com will be of any help in finding JD's initials, but it probably shed some light on why E.T. starts with 3 points: as we know, a "2" appears next to HSW's initials when you complete the game, meaning RotLA is his second game. Isn't E.T. his 3rd? Of course, please correct me if I'm wrong! greets, Rasty.- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 That would make sense, rasty! Good eye. Hey Scott, I'm on it. By looking at the screenshot you have provided, we can tell a number of things: 1. it occurs in the valley of poison (which I now know how to get out of, thanks) 2. Indy must be alive (he's walking, it appears) 3. Indy must be carrying one bag of gold. 4. Indy must be near the top. 5. There are no enemies present (this may not make a diff) Could this be as simple as buying a parachute and taking a ride to the valley (ET's egg was super-easy to get, why not this)? But how does one get the second bag of gold? Could it be a system of dropping the right items in the valley? I'm on it. Bloodhound Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 [Rasty] I was thinking that before. You may have something there. But then why does Raiders give you 6 points? [stan Jr.] "Could this be as simple as buying a parachute and taking a ride to the valley (ET's egg was super-easy to get, why not this)? But how does one get the second bag of gold? Could it be a system of dropping the right items in the valley?" I'm sure once it's found, it will be deceptively simple You can get up to 6 bags of gold- just keep going back into the treasure room. The only safe way of getting in the VoP is by parachute. If I had to guess, I'd say the trick involves something similar to the YAR trick- maybe dropping a specific item off a specific mesa, or perhaps it involves going inside a specific mesa (you would need 2 parachute to do this). The only thing I'm certain of is that out of a possible 23 points, the highest I've ever gotten is 20.5, so this tells me that there is at least one other action to perform which would make up the difference (which most likely is finding JD's initials. Btw, finding the YAR is worth 1.5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 Here's the code info for the grenades and keys. Using SHOWGFX, the grenade graphics are found at 1b28 - 1b37. The normal key graphic is at 1b39 - 1b3d and the "mystery" key is at 1fa3 - 1fa6 Something else strange I noticed is that there are 4 seperate graphics for each of the 4 marketplace baskets, even though 3 of then are exactly the same. I thought 2600 programmers weren't supposed to waste bytes like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 I'm working on the Mesa theory but I'm more interested in the options in the valley of poison. I would imagine that the secret involves doing something in the valley. Notice how there is no swarm or Master Theif on the screen with INDY? Almost every time I drop into the valley, BOTH are waiting for me. What about dropping grenades in the Valley or as you fall into the valley? This is one theory I'm going to test. Is there any trick to parachuting into the caves under the tree branches or is it just practice makes perfect? I've got several other theories to test out as well. I'll be up all night with this and will post anything significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 The 2nd grenade is only needed if you trigger the cave-in in the entrance room (which isn't something you want to do since it costs you points), so maybe there is a "good" use for it? Getting into a mesa is tricky. There isn't much room for error, but the top of your parachute has to partially cover the branch. When the screen appears, I drop for about a length and a half (the height of your character), hit the chute, and drift diagonally towards the opening. With a little practice, you'll get a feel for how exactly to approach the branch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Thanks Scott, its currently giving me fits. If I could just beat the game, I'd feel some accomplishment. Do you have to unlock other secret first? It wouldn't make much sense. None of the others require this do they? I've dropped grenades in the valley, I've dropped just about every other item in the valley. I wonder how they got there with only the bag of gold? Here's something I'm playing with. Parachute down with the bag of gold and the gun. Shoot the thief then drop the gun as he runs away. I have no idea why this would work, but that screen shot clearly shows the condition of having only the gold and being in the valley alone. There are only so many ways to arrive at that point. Is there anyway to get into the valley other than parachuting/falling in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 By the way, I e-mailed you. Heard you were looking for me. Another thought about the game: That second grenade can be used anywhere right? Primarily it is to blast through the trap doors, but it can be used like the first one right? Is it possible to recover the first grenade after it has been used? Basically, can you have BOTH grenades at once? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 Ah, many questions. But this is a good thing I'll try to answer them. I don't know if you have to find the YAR first. My guess is you wouldn't have to. In E.T. you have to first find the YAR, then Indy, to get HSW's initials, but since HSW's and JD's aren't "related" in E.T., they probably aren't here either. As I stated, the only way to get into the VoP (that I know of) is either by parachute or jumping. If you parachute in with a bag of gold, you have to drop the chute when you land - you'd then be left with just the gold. Perhaps the trick involves letting the thief steal a certain object (or series of objects). There is a "priority" list that the thief uses when stealing objects. I can post this info if you want. I've only found the grenades to work in the temple entrance (either blasting the hole or clearing the cave-in), but you can set them off anywhere. And yes, it is possible to have both grenades in your inventory at the same time. Use the secret entrance in the marketplace to by-pass the entrance room method. [ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Most of the tricks done in Atari-made games seem to involve doing something that you would not normally "try" to do. How about just giving the thief the gun? If you run away from him long enough, does HE change into the graphic? The bag of gold pictured is in the same position as the one you start with...I wonder if it is in fact the same one? BTW if you wait, you can obtain the key in the black market's basket...is this in fact the same key, or does it just function the same? Does using it instead of the regular key cause a branching instruction to be skipped over? Or was this just an easy way for the game to keep track of what you have and where you got them? One thing is for sure...the secret needs to be something simple (so someone can stumble on it and say "Geezuz! How did I do that??"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: [/QB] I think, the J could look more like code: XXXX X X X X XXXXXX I've searches the net, but I didn't found any other scan. I think the are some Electronc Games Magazine scans online, maybe there we find something better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasty Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Humm.. Are we sure the "J" pictured is actually part of JD's initials? The "thing" that contains the J looks like it has legs (?), and also, where's the "D" ? Can't the picture just be from some prototype/development version of the game that contained a sprite that looks like a reversed "J"? greets, Rasty.- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 You can recognize the D as the frame around the J. But you're right, it could be a prototype picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 More thoughts, after I spent an insane amount of time with this STUPID (its just the frustration coming out) game last night. I've given the gun to the thief, it does nothing. But I had the exact same thought you did Nukey. I've also ran from the ******* until I could run no more. He doesn't change into anything, but if you run out of stuff to give him, he will just hump you until you leave the valley. Pervert. I've dropped just about every item off of the mesa, I've dropped/and/given just about every item to the master thief. (most of the time he just takes it and shoots you!) Yet no luck. New theories. The position of INDY in the screen shot we do have suggests that he is at the top of the valley between two mesas. This must mean that he is alive. I'm working on a way that you can parachute down that mesa in the middle of the screen and do SOMETHING, either drop something as you fall, or do something inside the mesa and then parachute down to the valley. Other theory (and the one I am more likely to believe) Nukey is on to something, the same thing I am currently working with. The screen shot shows a bag of gold in the same position in the menu as when you start the game. This indicates to me that the secret must be able to be unlocked VERY early in the game. In a game so full of items, it would only be logical for a couple of errant items to be in the inventory when the egg pops up, yet none are there. The "egg" does look suspiciously similar to the Master Thief..... This is my progress (or lack thereof) thus far. Basically, I'm beating my head into the wall. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Nukey Shay: How about just giving the thief the gun? If you run away from him long enough, does HE change into the graphic? He simply takes it (he'll take everything!). If he doesn't have any bullets, he'll simply hover over you indefinitely. There are only 5 objects that he can convert into bullets (oddly enough, the gun isn't one of them). Here is the order in which they are taken (highest priority to lowest), and the number of bullets that the thief will convert it to: key - 6 shovel - 5 coins - 3 magic flute - 3 parachute - 3 If any of the "tiny" thieves take them instead, the "master" thief will get the bullets for it. I don't know if the other objects have any 'priority' in regards to what order they are stolen. quote BTW if you wait, you can obtain the key in the black market's basket...is this in fact the same key, or does it just function the same? Same key. Both unlock the map room. The 2nd key in the code is smaller, and the "teeth" are pointing up. Btw, it *is* possible to solve the game w/o using the map room, but it is much more difficult (trial and error..) quote Does using it instead of the regular key cause a branching instruction to be skipped over? Or was this just an easy way for the game to keep track of what you have and where you got them? I don't know if using the Black market key makes any difference. Both apparently use the same graphic. Note that the Black market key can only be found in the basket when the timepiece reads either "12" or "1" (the first 2 positions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 quote...it could be a prototype picture.[/QB] I've thought about that, but why would HSW bother to take it out and still leave his in there? If it was only present in a prototype, then maybe Tempest or whoever owns any can get them dumped, and we can compare the code to see if it's different. Some more notes... Maybe the trick "converts" the thief into the graphic, as Stan suggested. I always thought it vaguely resembled the raving lunatic graphic. The gun always struck me as being sort of a useless item. Why would you bother using it, and having to buy bullets for it, when the whip works just as good? About the gun: it actually contains 7 bullets when you first get it (not 6). You can have up to 128 in reserve. If you try to have more than that, the gun will no longer fire. I should mention that using the 2nd grenade to clear the cave-in doesn't earn you any points (but causing the cave-in costs you 3.5) I've tried "frying" the game to unlock the graphic, w/o luck. But I did get the initials to appear that way, and I even got a screen where Indy was jammed inside of the ark (with an impossible score of 27)! I have a feeling this one won't give up its remaining secrets that easily....it may require the code to be completely disassembled. Is anyone up to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Come on Thomas! I know you can do it! What could you possibly do to change the thief into the JD? Shooting him only makes him shake a bunch and run away for a second. I wonder whats the reason behind him taking items in a specific order. Is it to create frustration for those falling in the valley or something else? The search continues............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 I just want to pipe in here and say it's fascinating following these threads and watching you guys pick apart these games so quickly. I would love to participate myself, but I'm in the process of moving from California to Texas, so the best I can do is sit on the sidelines. Every time I looked at that ET Thread yesterday, there'd be a whole slew of new messages! I'm glad to see Raiders is your next victim. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Its a lot of fun, but I fear I am the victim here. This thing is making me nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 quote: Originally posted by StanJr: I wonder whats the reason behind him taking items in a specific order Logically, I would think that either the shovel or headpiece would be more valuable, since they're not as easy to get as the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagMax667 Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Did anyone else notice that, in the screenshot, the initials seem to be in the same place as the Yar in the Mesa Side screen? When the Yar appears, it is at the top of the screen in the center. That is where the initials are in the screenshot. Does this have any significance? Or is it just coincidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 quote: Originally posted by StanJr: Come on Thomas! I know you can do it! As soon as I can locate the graphics inside the assembly I'll will trace this down. But until now, I haven't found them. I'm still hoping for a better screenshot, that shows the pattern more exact... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 11, 2001 Author Share Posted November 11, 2001 This is a fake screen shot I made, using the same "block resolution" as the lunatic and Indy characters, which better illustrates the EG photo: If anyone has either Electronic Games issues November 1982 (page or March 1984 (page 24), or the Consumer’s Guide book, How to Win at Home Video Games (page 56), can you scan those pages and send them to me or post them here? Thanks. [ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 11, 2001 Share Posted November 11, 2001 I'm currently going through the code and disabling branches that have 3 or more skipping to the same location. This is done by replacing the value with 00. Example: 1269 F0 02 BEQ $126d (skip next 2 bytes) 1269 F0 00 BEQ $126b (skip NO bytes...disabled) It's an uphill battle, since many will kill the cart when disabled (which is why I'm limiting tests to routines that contain 3 or more branches to the same spot). $1255 is an interesting routine...it controls the "cave-in". If you disable the 4 branches here, the temple entrance will be constantly opening/closing. This can be done by replacing $125A, $1260, $1266, and 126A with value $00. Original values are $12, $0C, $06, and $02...respectively. [ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Nukey Shay ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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