Scott Stilphen Posted November 14, 2001 Author Share Posted November 14, 2001 As of now, Thomas and myself are pretty much convinced that the graphics for the JD logo aren't in the release version, which means earlier versions (such as Twit's proto, and others, if they're out there) may very well contain that code. One theory is that the graphics were erased (there seems to be a "gap" in the code, where the graphics could have been), but the code to trigger them may still exist. If that's the case, it would be a simple matter of "plugging" in the missing data to make it work. However, finding the 2nd key seems to be a real possibility. Plus remember that 2.5 points is still unaccounted for (a fairly large amount - nearly 10% of the total!). Besides trying to figure out how this works, Nukey Shay and Thomas are looking closely at the scoring routines. It may be possible to work "backwards" - find out how the scoring works, and see how the missing points are involved. Interesting quirks: If you don't blow the hole in the wall, and instead enter the Temple Entrance via the marketplace, you can exit through the hole leading back into the Entrance room, going right through the wall! You can also enter the T.E. room via the Marketplace if the secret walls have been triggered, which is strange since you can't enter via the Room of the Shining Light (dungeon room). Is the 2nd grenade involved somehow? Perhaps there's a way to detonate it while in the same room, and not be killed? And why would HSW bother to made 2 seperate grenade icons (the Black Market one appears reversed in the inventory screen, to the Marketplace one), if they both apparently work the same way? There is more to the Entrance room than it appears [ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 I have new information about the scoring Each pedestral "circle" equals 4 points. There are 12 things that change your score, but for one of them, I can't find any place in code, where it is changed from 0. unknown +12 unknown +10 using parachute: + 3 use of Angk + 9 unknown + 5 lifes -1..+2 unknown +14 unknown + 3 unknown +-0 ??? blowing hole in entrance room: -2 unknown -13 shooting at thief: -4 I'll try to check more tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 Have you ever thought that there may be two versions of ROTLA? Remember how Rob Fulop thinks his initials got taken out of Missile Command. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 Hmm..HSW counted every line of circle resolution as a point.... ..which explains why my system of making 1 circle = 1 AP didn't quite work Nothing like making it more complicated than it has to be! That Warshaw is a tricky one ("The man is....nefarious.") Now to recalculate my chart... quote: Originally posted by StanJr: Are you sure the 3 item combo in the mesa generates a YAR? I know HSW says so, but two YARS in the same game sounds redundant. These guys have mixed stuff up before. Could this hlep with the JD initials or even lead to a totally new egg? Not sure about that one. Nothing has been found in the code yet to substantiate it, but that doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it [Tempest] I doubt there are 2 released versions (but who's to say....). As for Fulop's initial-less Missile Command, regardless of what he says, nobody has yet proved it. If any of those exist, there is very few of them (i.e. maybe the very last run produced). [ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 Thomas-- Could it be that these values are being subtracted from the maximum at the end of a game? Since the "points" are the same as # of vertical pixels in the P/M pedestal object, it could start off with 92 (the adjusted maximum "points") and work it's way down to the score tally as the pedestal is being lowered onscreen. In that sense, you might not find where the score is moved up from zero (kind of a longshot, I know). BTW the action that is unknown is worth -a probable- 2.5 circles (10 points)...do you have any further info regarding that ADC? Is it an ADC command? What location are those commands testing for those values? When adding $00, could it be adding the carry bit? BTW following your scoring structure, one could replace Scott's table with : +12 Locating the Ark on the map +10 Using the shovel +3 Using the parachute +9 Using the ankh +5 Getting Yar +2 (not added if life is lost) +14 Finding the Ark (end of game) +3 Safe landing in a mesa +0 ?? -2 Use of grenade at the temple -13 Using the secret panels in the temple -4 Shooting a thief [ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Nukey Shay ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 Here are all the known actions, with the correct point scale: +24 (start with) +12 USING SHOVEL IN MESA +10 FINDING ARK + 3 USE OF PARACHUTE + 9 USE OF ANKH + 5 UNCOVERING YAR +14 LOCATING ARK IN MAPROOM + 3 LANDING IN MESA + 1 FINISHING GAME WITH 1 LIFE LEFT + 2 FINISHING GAME WITH 2 LIVES LEFT +-0 ?? UNKNOWN - possibly related to "JD" ? - 2 BLOWING HOLE IN ENTRANCE ROOM -13 USING SECRET EXIT IN DUNGEON - 4 SHOOTING/WHIPPING THIEVES So it appears whatever the unknown action is/was, it made up for the missing 10 points (maximum being 92). [ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 Oh, I think I found it... *=0DDB LDA $9E SEC SBC $A7 SBC $A8 SBC $A9 SBC $AA SBC $9F SBC $AB SBC $AD SBC $AE CLC ADC $A5 ADC $A6 ADC $AC ...yep, it's subtracting the positive actions and adding the negative actions (which is probably why you don't see a value there at the start). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 I have a bad feeling about this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 If the maximum is indeed 82, it sounds like the code for the "unknown" action is still in there - HSW just made it so that it wouldn't give any points. So the question is....what's the unknown action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 Progresss! At this point I would be glad to find out the JD initials are not there. If I had gone through all this work and missed some stupid little detail, I'd be nuts. By the same token, any closure would be nice. As it stands I continue to wallow in the mire on the gaming side of this endeavor.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 Since it doesn't seem to involve the score, and the source code is not readily available, and even the creators are unable to recall additional info...we're back at square one. Without a lead. "...and if I go insane, will you still let me join in with the game?" -Pink Floyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 Ah, but we do have a lead.....the extra key! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 SPECULATION : Worst case scenario (if the egg IS there)... It could be that the "easter egg" is a glitch...like that extra candy in ET (which I have a hunch is caused by the carry bit). After hunting down the cause, JD found that it could be altered slightly to produce varying effects. After finding one that produced the graphic shown (which -kind of- look like his initials...unlike the ET secret)...he decided to leave it in rather than fix it. Not only does this mean it could be impossible to find by just looking at a disassembly, or even the source code, but it may be impossible to replicate unless using an actual Atari 2600 console...and even then it could be iffy. E.G. comes by while he's toying with the glitch and snaps a pic. Now I'm REALLY anxious for the proto dump...if the above is true, then it could be the only place that it exists in it's unaltered form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 Does this mean I could keep trying to trigger an egg that is really there, but no matter what I still only have a SLIM chance of making it appear no matter what I do right or wrong? Talk about a tiny window of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 Although it's only speculation...yes, unfortunately. In any case, they wouldn't be lying about it actually being there (however unintentional it's origin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Nukey Shay: Oh, I think I found it... *=0DDB LDA $9E SEC SBC $A7 SBC $A8 SBC $A9 SBC $AA SBC $9F SBC $AB SBC $AD SBC $AE CLC ADC $A5 ADC $A6 ADC $AC ...yep, it's subtracting the positive actions and adding the negative actions (which is probably why you don't see a value there at the start). Yes, that is the code and the variables are used in the same order that I posted them. So $AE is the variable which is never (99% sure about this) changed from 0 inside the code. There also is a little carry bug in code, which explains, why you don't get subtracted 1 point when loosing all lives. For coders only: The lifes are stored in $9F and count down to -1, which would clear the carry before the next subtraction, so the next subtraction will be one to much. All other subtraction values keep the carry set. So it makes no difference, if $9F is 0 or -1. Does that make sense to somebody? The result is stored back in $9E, which starts with $64 (=100). Then the pedestral is moved down, until the scanline-counter reaches the value in $9E (minus some constant offset for the Indy and Ark graphics which I haven't checked yet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by StanJr: Progresss! At this point I would be glad to find out the JD initials are not there. But how do you prove the non-existance of something??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: Ah, but we do have a lead.....the extra key! Yes, we have the key, but since that one variable is never changed directly inside the code (it could still be done with some very clever coding, but why should they do so?) as all other variables are, I don't think even finding the way to trigger it, will change the score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: Nothing like making it more complicated than it has to be! That Warshaw is a tricky one ( "The man is....nefarious." ) From a programmers ponit of view, that's simply straight forward coding. Nothing tricky, just natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch: But how do you prove the non-existance of something??? Complete disassembly That's the only way to be 100% sure. quote Yes, we have the key, but since that one variable is never changed directly inside the code (it could still be done with some very clever coding, but why should they do so?) as all other variables are, I don't think even finding the way to trigger it, will change the score. I'm not doubting that, but I'd still like to see if the other key can be uncovered, regardless of whether or not it earns points. I'm not a programmer, but it seems reasonable that setting a variable to 0 would be a quick way to "disable" the action, w/o having to go through the whole program and take out the code for the action. From the info you mentioned, the act of uncovering the 2nd key is most likely this unknown action. Perhaps the code to reveal the initials is still in there. Either action (or both) most likely would have affected the score. Maybe HSW had enough time to remove all traces of the JD code before the final release. Prototypes (if they are different) will certainly shed some light on what alternate ideas HSW had for ROTLA. quote From a programmers ponit of view, that's simply straight forward coding. Nothing tricky, just natural. I wasn't referring to how it was coded, but rather the method of calculating your score. It's much easier to simply count the # of circles on the pedestal than to count every line of resolution. I suspect HSW did this to make it harder for someone to figure out what actions affected your score. The difference a point makes to the pedestal would go unnoticed by most people (even with the slight color change). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 One more maybe interesting information: The points are mostly not given independendly. They are reused from other code variable values to save ROM space. Example: The use of the Angk brings you to the scene with the internal id 9 and you get 9 points for it. Or: The joystick is read and if the result is $0d (=13=down), then you loose 13 points for using the secret dungeon exit. Not all, but most of the score variables follow this rule. So the points are more or less the result of the circumstances in the code and not intended (exactly) by the designer. Don't expect to find any exact rule in the scoring. Just to keep this thread alive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videotwit Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Nukey Shay: Now I'm REALLY anxious for the proto dump...if the above is true, then it could be the only place that it exists in it's unaltered form. The cart it in trnsit -- it should arrive to Hozer by Tomorrow or Saturday, I hope. The ROM will be released on ULTRAtwit.com as soon as it hits my mailbox. To you who are working on the "code-sleuthing" aspect of this project, send me an email at slindberg@ULTRAtwit.com , and I'll forward the results of the proto dump directly to you even before I upload it to my site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 quoteI suspect HSW did this to make it harder for someone to figure out what actions affected your score. The difference a point makes to the pedestal would go unnoticed by most people (even with the slight color change). What I was trying to say, that he didn't do it to make the result unpredictable or complicated or any other intention. He simlpy did it, because it was easy to code it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: Complete disassembly That's the only way to be 100% sure. But who would pay me 100$ for that And would you understand the disassembly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 Thanks Twit! Look forward to seeing it. I can't believe your's is the only one known to exist. I've been asking around, but nobody has replied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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