Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[Bryan]

As long as people are nice. I don't care at all if i'm not right, but i do care if people call me for idiot. People who just jump in to do a quick attack.

 

I like the colours on A8.

 

Then people call me idiot?

 

If you have time, read the thread and see why i'm upset.

 

I've read the thread.

 

I like the colors on the A8 too.

[PeteD]

As long as people are nice. I don't care at all if i'm not right, but i do care if people call me for idiot. People who just jump in to do a quick attack.

 

And telling people who can program a computer what that machine is or isn't capable of just because you'd read it on wikipedia is hideously arrogant.

 

Not if it's about facts, that even shows in all screenshots. The ONLY thing i said was that colours is better on Atari because they are more clear and vivid, not to mention 256.

 

Then you can forget everything else, like i said. Forget sprites.

 

Further discussion unnecessary.

 

Goodnight TMR.

 

See, not wanting to start yet another argument but in 99% of the shots you posted there are only 128 colours available not 256 and that's where the problems seem to arise. From trying to explain that the first time round it escalates from a kind of "well I don't care because I THOUGHT there were 256" stance into an argument.

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

And telling people who can program a computer what that machine is or isn't capable of just because you'd read it on wikipedia is hideously arrogant.

 

Not if it's about facts, that even shows in all screenshots.

 

No, it wasn't facts and you were wrong because almost all of the screenshots were in modes which only had access to 128 colours. And your opinion of what the screenshots proved is merely that and nothing more, certainly it's not valid in a programming discussion.

 

The ONLY thing i said was that colours is better on Atari because they are more clear and vivid, not to mention 256.

 

You repeatedly talked about 256 colours until post #79, essentially ignoring what i was telling you in favour of wikipedia.

 

Further discussion unnecessary.

 

Trying to dictate to others when the conversation is over doesn't wash either.

Edited May 7, 2010 by TMR

[+wood_jl]

Are you an american?

 

Or are you very bad at counting?

 

Read again.

 

3 channels, including the bass stupid.

 

C'mon, you're not THAT dumb?

 

 

Uh-oh, who's supposed to be insulted here? Groovybee? The Yankees? Everyone? HA HA HA!! I love it! (for entertainment only)

[+wood_jl]

Okay, I have no idea how to use #3. Whipping out the shiny thing seems to conjure up a different image for me.

 

I was wondering about "whipping out the shiny thing" too. First thought was, does this mean the same to men as women?

[PeteD]

Are you an american?

 

Or are you very bad at counting?

 

Read again.

 

3 channels, including the bass stupid.

 

C'mon, you're not THAT dumb?

 

 

Uh-oh, who's supposed to be insulted here? Groovybee? The Yankees? Everyone? HA HA HA!! I love it! (for entertainment only)

 

innumerate people?

[+wood_jl]

No i didn't.

 

If people had been more polite, i had been soo much more nicer in this thread.

 

I even said.

 

Don't make me hate C64, because i really want to like ALL 8 bit computers.

 

But no, you continued...

 

Here's some irony:

 

I actually warmed up to the 64 as a result of watching how a handful of Atari guys behaved in a debate. Basically, if you discover you can't stand with the group you're there to stand with, what do you do?

 

I warmed up to the C64 because of the great [not this one] A8 vs C64 thread, where there were some sensible points made by Commodore users, and (unlike 1984) I was old enough to listen this time!! When the debate turned to disk drives/storage and the "1541 Ultimate" (device) entered discussion, I knew I had to find out more about this device. This thing (through features and convenience) makes a C64 a joy to own. I still giggle when I turn it on. Eliminating the real 1541 drive pretty much wipes out the C64's achilles heel. All fun and games from there.

[Bryan]

Anyone seen the A8 demo "Tit" yet?

 

 

I just discovered it tonight.

[+wood_jl]

Anyone seen the A8 demo "Tit" yet?

 

 

I just discovered it tonight.

 

Heh heh. I kept waiting for a couple of heavy-hangers - in all their GTIA glory - to come swinging across the screen! Wishful thinking? Sick? I didn't name the demo!

[DimensionX]

And telling people who can program a computer what that machine is or isn't capable of just because you'd read it on wikipedia is hideously arrogant.

 

Not if it's about facts, that even shows in all screenshots.

 

No, it wasn't facts and you were wrong because almost all of the screenshots were in modes which only had access to 128 colours. And your opinion of what the screenshots proved is merely that and nothing more, certainly it's not valid in a programming discussion.

 

The ONLY thing i said was that colours is better on Atari because they are more clear and vivid, not to mention 256.

 

You repeatedly talked about 256 colours until post #79, essentially ignoring what i was telling you in favour of wikipedia.

 

Further discussion unnecessary.

 

Trying to dictate to others when the conversation is over doesn't wash either.

 

How hard can it get?

 

The colours looks better on A8, no more, no less.

[+wood_jl]

How hard can it get?

 

The colours looks better on A8, no more, no less.

 

Actually, NOT more but INDEED less; the C64 is able to put more on the screen at a time (and on "sprites") than the A8. That is worthy of some respect, even if you prefer the A8 (which, I have to say I still do, but my preference is irrelevant to a meaningful comparison, and so is yours.

[DimensionX]

How hard can it get?

 

The colours looks better on A8, no more, no less.

 

Actually, NOT more but INDEED less; the C64 is able to put more on the screen at a time (and on "sprites") than the A8. That is worthy of some respect, even if you prefer the A8 (which, I have to say I still do, but my preference is irrelevant to a meaningful comparison, and so is yours.

 

Numbers of colours on screen is irellevant. It's the quality of them and A8's colours looks so much better even if it's just 3 on the screen. Quality before quantity. C64 has 16 where at least 2 of them are horrible (light green and dark brown)

 

I would say that the colours are the weakest point of C64. They don't look good, while A8 produce awesome colours. And always have been known for.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

 

 

Numbers of colours on screen is irellevant. It's the quality of them and A8's colours looks so much better even if it's just 3 on the screen. Quality before quantity. C64 has 16 where at least 2 of them are horrible (light green and dark brown)

 

I would say that the colours are the weakest point of C64. They don't look good, while A8 produce awesome colours. And always have been known for.

 

Here we go again Mr I Like all of them.

 

Irrelevant, TO YOU.

 

Horrible, TO YOU.

 

Don't look good, TO YOU.

 

Seeing a pattern?

 

Imo the A8 palette is generally quite ugly, so now I'm a C64 fanboy again I suppose? Nope, it's just my opinion.

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

Actually, NOT more but INDEED less; the C64 is able to put more on the screen at a time (and on "sprites") than the A8. That is worthy of some respect, even if you prefer the A8 (which, I have to say I still do, but my preference is irrelevant to a meaningful comparison, and so is yours.

 

Numbers of colours on screen is irellevant.

 

It's more relevant to the topic than your personal, subjective opinions as to which machine has the "better" palette. Again, this is in the programming area and programmers don't just stop thinking about the colours at the level you do, what can actually be done with those colours is more important. The C64's designers could've put a larger palette into the machine but they made the decision to assign the space on the VIC-II's chip to the sprite hardware.

 

I would say that the colours are the weakest point of C64. They don't look good, while A8 produce awesome colours.

 

And since you're just stating personal opinions rather than actual facts, that's not relevant; my opinion is that the C64 palette has a good range of colours to work with that look decent on the screen.

Edited May 8, 2010 by TMR

[DimensionX]

Actually, NOT more but INDEED less; the C64 is able to put more on the screen at a time (and on "sprites") than the A8. That is worthy of some respect, even if you prefer the A8 (which, I have to say I still do, but my preference is irrelevant to a meaningful comparison, and so is yours.

 

Numbers of colours on screen is irellevant.

 

It's more relevant to the topic than your personal, subjective opinions as to which machine has the "better" palette. Again, this is in the programming area and programmers don't just stop thinking about the colours at the level you do, what can actually be done with those colours is more important. The C64's designers could've put a larger palette into the machine but they made the decision to assign the space on the VIC-II's chip to the sprite hardware.

 

I would say that the colours are the weakest point of C64. They don't look good, while A8 produce awesome colours.

 

And since you're just stating personal opinions rather than actual facts, that's not relevant; my opinion is that the C64 palette has a good range of colours to work with that look decent on the screen.

 

Exactly. And that's why the colours on Atari looks better. You always have to sacrifice something to get something. In C64's case, it was the colours.

 

You don't even have the range to create a spread of 8 nuances.

 

And dithering will get you nowhere near A8's clean colours.

 

Give up. It's just gets silly to argue.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[DimensionX]

Are you an american?

 

Or are you very bad at counting?

 

Read again.

 

3 channels, including the bass stupid.

 

C'mon, you're not THAT dumb?

 

 

Uh-oh, who's supposed to be insulted here? Groovybee? The Yankees? Everyone? HA HA HA!! I love it! (for entertainment only)

 

Perhaps i should clear things up. No, i don't hate americans at all, just the ones who's trying to provoke.

 

"Either you're an american"

 

Means. Okey, another american posting a reply just to provoke and to annoy like some others has done so far.

 

(after my posting i saw that you were a brit)

 

Brits can be very annoying too, especially the ones without any sense of humour.

 

"Or, you're bad at counting"

 

Are you serious? In that case i'll better explain what i mean.

 

That's it, no more, no less.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

Numbers of colours on screen is irellevant.

 

It's more relevant to the topic than your personal, subjective opinions as to which machine has the "better" palette. Again, this is in the programming area and programmers don't just stop thinking about the colours at the level you do, what can actually be done with those colours is more important. The C64's designers could've put a larger palette into the machine but they made the decision to assign the space on the VIC-II's chip to the sprite hardware.

 

I would say that the colours are the weakest point of C64. They don't look good, while A8 produce awesome colours.

 

And since you're just stating personal opinions rather than actual facts, that's not relevant; my opinion is that the C64 palette has a good range of colours to work with that look decent on the screen.

 

Exactly. And that's why the colours on Atari looks better.

 

And this point is totally irrelevant because no, the colours don't look better to me - they may to you but that's just your personal opinion and no more relevant to the discussion now that it has ever been. How flexible each machine is at using the colours is, however, extremely relevant despite what you said.

 

You don't even have the range to create a spread of 8 nuances.

 

And the A8 gets five colours a scanline so it can't either. Again, the use of colours is more relevant than the palette itself.

 

Give up. It's just gets silly to argue.

 

It is indeed silly to argue with people like you who try to force their subjective opinions on others as fact. But no, i won't be stopping on your say so - i will be quiet for the next couple of days because i have a writing deadline coming up.

[TMR]

Brits can be very annoying too, especially the ones without any sense of humour.

 

And people who are repeatedly told that they're posting to the wrong part of a forum but continue to do so regardless are the most annoying of all.

[PeteD]

 

Brits can be very annoying too, especially the ones without any sense of humour.

 

 

Funny how it's not funny when it's you who is the butt of the jokes, everything you aim at everyone else is of course hilarious.

[Bryan]

I'll admit it's hard to get a lot of colors on the screen, but I'd have to disagree that the palette itself is a weakness of the system. Atari allowed separate control over the hue and the luminance allowing you to make a color by combining the two. Pretty nifty. TV standards also require control over saturation (Chroma amplitude) if you want your bright colors to be pure. Well... that's where Atari had to cut corners. But none of the old 8-bitters had perfect video and Atari's method was pretty good.

[DimensionX]

Brits can be very annoying too, especially the ones without any sense of humour.

 

And people who are repeatedly told that they're posting to the wrong part of a forum but continue to do so regardless are the most annoying of all.

 

Well, you can be fanatic to a certain limit, then i all becomes both silly and obvious. You passed that limit long time ago. A8 for vivid crystal clear unmatched colours, C64 for sprites.

 

That's not an opinion but what you see in all screenshots.

 

Good luck with the spritemachine.

[TMR]

Brits can be very annoying too, especially the ones without any sense of humour.

 

And people who are repeatedly told that they're posting to the wrong part of a forum but continue to do so regardless are the most annoying of all.

 

Well, you can be fanatic to a certain limit, then i all becomes both silly and obvious. You passed that limit long time ago.

 

You did that with your first fanboy post declaring the Atari 8-bit the winner. Nothing after that has redeemed you and what you've said does not negate the fact that you're still posting to the wrong place.

 

A8 for vivid crystal clear unmatched colours

 

IN YOUR OPINION, THIS IS NOT A FACT.

 

Good luck with the spritemachine.

 

Since i'm currently writing an Atari 8-bit game and have said so repeatedly in this thread, this proves that you don't actually read other people's posts. Your opinions now have even less weight than before, which is a surprise because i doubt anyone thought it was possible for them to lose any more even with that childish name calling.

Edited May 8, 2010 by TMR

[TMR]

I'll admit it's hard to get a lot of colors on the screen, but I'd have to disagree that the palette itself is a weakness of the system.

 

The only person to say that was DimensionX about the C64's palette i think... who said it about the A8?

[DimensionX]

Brits can be very annoying too, especially the ones without any sense of humour.

 

And people who are repeatedly told that they're posting to the wrong part of a forum but continue to do so regardless are the most annoying of all.

 

Well, you can be fanatic to a certain limit, then i all becomes both silly and obvious. You passed that limit long time ago.

 

You did that with your first fanboy post declaring the Atari 8-bit the winner. Nothing after that has redeemed you and what you've said does not negate the fact that you're still posting to the wrong place.

 

A8 for vivid crystal clear unmatched colours

 

IN YOUR OPINION, THIS IS NOT A FACT.

 

Good luck with the spritemachine.

 

Since i'm currently writing an Atari 8-bit game and have said so repeatedly in this thread, this proves that you don't actually read other people's posts. So your opinions now have even less weight than before, which is a surprise because i doubt anyone thought it was possible for them to lose any more.

 

It's NOT my opinion. Take a look at all screenshots i have posted. Even ONE of them would be impossible to do with C64's limited palette.

 

Then i don't care if you like rainbows or not.

[PeteD]

I'll admit it's hard to get a lot of colors on the screen, but I'd have to disagree that the palette itself is a weakness of the system. Atari allowed separate control over the hue and the luminance allowing you to make a color by combining the two. Pretty nifty. TV standards also require control over saturation (Chroma amplitude) if you want your bright colors to be pure. Well... that's where Atari had to cut corners. But none of the old 8-bitters had perfect video and Atari's method was pretty good.

 

Well I'd certainly never call loads of colours by itself a weakness Pretty much is the best palette of any 8 bit (can't think of any better atm). A more RGB approach would've been better imo as there's too much similar stuff in the A8 one but similar over 256 is still more than 16,32 etc No doubt it's just a design limitation anyway, do it with YUV and there's probably less hardware needed to get it out to the TV.

 

 

Pete