Bryan Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) I love this indignation. The majority of posters to this forum -- including homebrew developers and champions -- routinely trouce upon the copyrights of others. How about this: What if I pick the 10 latest 2600 homebrew carts and start selling replicas of them, taking products from active people in the community and making some cash with my knock-off product? Do you think I could convince anyone in the 2600 forum that I wasn't doing anything wrong? Turning it into a business is a bit different from pirating a copy for myself. Edited August 7, 2011 by Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I love this indignation. The majority of posters to this forum -- including homebrew developers and champions -- routinely trouce upon the copyrights of others. Turning it into a business is a bit different from pirating a copy for myself. No it isn't. You are rationalizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) No it isn't. You are rationalizing. So you're cool with someone else putting a counterfeit Medieval Mayhem, Cave In or Adventure II on ebay for a quick buck? I agree that there are ethical dilemmas in both cases and I'm not saying I know Sal did such a thing, but to me, copying for profit is a whole different ballgame. It really doesn't matter to me who copies my game because it's free to copy. However, I reserve the right to determine who can turn it into merchandise. Edited August 7, 2011 by Bryan 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qix_maniac Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 No it isn't. You are rationalizing. So you're cool with someone else putting a counterfeit Medieval Mayhem, Cave In or Adventure II on ebay for a quick buck? I agree that there are ethical dilemmas in both cases and I'm not saying I know Sal did such a thing, but to me, copying for profit is a whole different ballgame. It really doesn't matter to me who copies my game because it's free to copy. However, I reserve the right to determine who can turn it into merchandise. I agree with Bryan. It's his product and if he only wants Albert to sell it then it's his choice. Want a Matterhorn? ask v61 and they sell them for $19.99, of course original 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I'm just saying that it is crazy to crap on someone who is putting Atari games on a cart and selling the cart for a couple bucks more than the cart costs with no games on it. I say this as a person who bought an Atarimax cart and an SIO2PC cable then paid for APE (though I did not need any functionality not offered for free). The guy (who I love) selling APE and the cart and SIO2PC is making money off the pirated wares. Were I to turn around and use APE and SIO2PC to make more carts and sell them (I don't) to others who do not want to pay for APE or SIO2PC or want to learn how to make and transfer an image, charging for my effort, I think that is a SERVICE not a business. You can disagree with that, BUT I don't think you can make a case that this person is a pirate while the other guy (who I love) is something else. A lot of people get crazy about the 'piracy of homebrew software' as if 'stealing' from these people is going to kill the atari community -- not me. No one should expect to make a living writing software for a vintage computer. People who want to support these coders should (I paid for APE), but it's not like there is a market for a GUI for a 30 year old computer. This is a hobby. While some of the programs are pretty impressive, better FREE alternatives are available for modern computers. This is a HOBBY. That's all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) Thanks Qix. I don't want to make this thread about me, so I'll shut up now. WizWor: He'd probably do a lot better to figure out how to make cheaper carts using EPROMs (although cartridge making supplies are getting harder to get). Anyway, I don't really have a problem with him offering carts of "abandonware" and authorized software when possible. Edited August 7, 2011 by Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Thanks Qix. I don't want to make this thread about me, so I'll shut up now. It's a little bit about you, Bryan, so don't be afraid to speak your mind. I would be interested to know why you are OK with people downloading your game for free but offended when people sell it as part of a collection. Do you want people to experience your game? More people will see it if it is on a multicart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 thread lock? /me pulls out the loc-tite sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I think this is a good thread. It didn't start out that way, but I think it is good for this community to discuss its values. Copyright is probably the single most important value that governs this community. I would like to know how others (coders, resellers, consumers) feel about this value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Thanks Qix. I don't want to make this thread about me, so I'll shut up now. It's a little bit about you, Bryan, so don't be afraid to speak your mind. I would be interested to know why you are OK with people downloading your game for free but offended when people sell it as part of a collection. Do you want people to experience your game? More people will see it if it is on a multicart. Well, In general I'm not opposed to the idea of a multi-cart because the main 'product' is the convenience of a bunch of files. I just don't want someone selling Castle Crisis without asking, and I don't want a product that is parallel to what Albert and I are offering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Thanks Qix. I don't want to make this thread about me, so I'll shut up now. It's a little bit about you, Bryan, so don't be afraid to speak your mind. I would be interested to know why you are OK with people downloading your game for free but offended when people sell it as part of a collection. Do you want people to experience your game? More people will see it if it is on a multicart. Well, In general I'm not opposed to the idea of a multi-cart because the main 'product' is the convenience of a bunch of files. I just don't want someone selling Castle Crisis without asking, and I don't want a product that is parallel to what Albert and I are offering. That seems reasonable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 A lot of people get crazy about the 'piracy of homebrew software' as if 'stealing' from these people is going to kill the atari community -- not me. No one should expect to make a living writing software for a vintage computer. Conversely anybody owning a vintage computer should not expect to get new games for free. Its nice when homebrew authors give their work away as a free download. Sometimes its as a "try before you buy", after which they go onto create disks, carts, boxes, manuals etc. New games and apps can take 100s (maybe 1000s) of hours of time, sometimes involving a programmer, artist and a musician. If developers take offence at their works being distributed by "pirate means" and withdraw from the community then fewer and fewer new games will be appear for the platform. Programming for retro systems is a labour of love (everybody knows that). Developers end up working for less than the minimum wage on their projects. Is it fair to steal royalty money from people earning less than the minimum wage? People who want to support these coders should (I paid for APE), but it's not like there is a market for a GUI for a 30 year old computer. This is a hobby. While some of the programs are pretty impressive, better FREE alternatives are available for modern computers. This is a HOBBY. Its is a hobby that is kept alive by a finite set of people willing to give their time for little monetary return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I can't believe I got sucked into this thread Its is a hobby that is kept alive by a finite set of people willing to give their time for little monetary return. I disagree. I do not know a single person who owns an Atari computer because of the new programs. 100% of the people who I know that own an atari computer or run an emulator, do this to play vintage games. A lot of people try new games and some people find new games that are fun and play them, but the hobby is kept alive by nostalgia for the vintage games and hardware. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 That seems reasonable to me. Thanks. If I were making such a multi-cart, I'd try to contact anyone who was still active in the scene before using their program, just out of courtesy. Sal's been a little lax in that area, and sending out an email or PM is better than getting a thread like this named after you. And oh yeah, I always knew I wouldn't make any money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I disagree. I do not know a single person who owns an Atari computer because of the new programs. 100% of the people who I know that own an atari computer or run an emulator, do this to play vintage games. A lot of people try new games and some people find new games that are fun and play them, but the hobby is kept alive by nostalgia for the vintage games and hardware. Maybe... I like both and I think more of the console guys are really into the new games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 That seems reasonable to me. Thanks. If I were making such a multi-cart, I'd try to contact anyone who was still active in the scene before using their program, just out of courtesy. Sal's been a little lax in that area, and sending out an email or PM is better than getting a thread like this named after you. And oh yeah, I always knew I wouldn't make any money. That would be the best way to do it, but I would guess that you would have a lot of problems trying to contact most copyright holders. I would guess that some who did not actually care about your cart would respond with legalese that would make you uncomfortable. I think I would (and I don't) put the cart out and remove programs if people objected. I don't know Sal (which is why I waited so long to jump in here), but I would hope he would do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I don't know that most A8 coders today would respond with legalese. If you tried to contact EA, then sure. I'd rather make my own multicart anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I should probably say that I would not condone selling ANY game as a cart without the explicit consent of the author. In my head, that contradicts some of what I have posted, but my heart tells me this is wrong. If I figure this out, I'll post a followup... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I'd rather make my own multicart anyway. Well, yeah! but some people who want to enjoy vintage games are not up for that. My first MaxFlash cart came with 50 games preinstalled. It was a great way for me to experience the flash cart without investing in APE or SIO2PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Although I pirated 90+% of my software back in the day, today I've got a fairly large collection of boxed A8 games. Of course, that isn't really practical for most folks and I like having the cracked files on disk. There really is no way to go 100% legit today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I disagree. I do not know a single person who owns an Atari computer because of the new programs. 100% of the people who I know that own an atari computer or run an emulator, do this to play vintage games. A lot of people try new games and some people find new games that are fun and play them, but the hobby is kept alive by nostalgia for the vintage games and hardware. Maybe... I like both and I think more of the console guys are really into the new games. So, if there were no xex or atr or com or bin files, you would buy an Atari computer just to play the homebrew games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Maybe... I like both and I think more of the console guys are really into the new games. So, if there were no xex or atr or com or bin files, you would buy an Atari computer just to play the homebrew games? No, if I couldn't play any of the old games I probably wouldn't have an 8-bit but I said I like both. I love (and bought) Yoomp! for example. I love seeing what is possible even 25 years too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Although I pirated 90+% of my software back in the day, today I've got a fairly large collection of boxed A8 games. Of course, that isn't really practical for most folks and I like having the cracked files on disk. There really is no way to go 100% legit today. I bought 90+% of my atari software. I have sampled many of the games, but I can produce original disks, tapes, or carts for almost all of the games I play. I collect every file I can find, but I still play the games I bought back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 No, if I couldn't play any of the old games I probably wouldn't have an 8-bit That's all I'm saying. Access to the vintage software makes this hobby worthwhile. Because the hobby is worthwhile, some people continue to code. If you appreciate their efforts, encourage them with payment. BUT lay off some guy who is making it easier for a neophite to join our community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I was 11 when I got an 800 (I'm 41) and only had 2 games for about a year. Once I met someone who had disks of files, my collection exploded. I really didn't have much concept of copyright until later, but I do remember buying a few games on my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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