WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I was 11 when I got an 800 (I'm 41) and only had 2 games for about a year. Once I met someone who had disks of files, my collection exploded. I really didn't have much concept of copyright until later, but I do remember buying a few games on my own. LOL, I was sixteen when I got my 2600. I was working in a grocery store and spending $50/week on games. When I got my 400 (three years later), I bought EVERY SINGLE game they carried at my local department store. I had no concept of piracy. It wasn't until I started college that I was introduced to piracy. My collection exploded, but I still mostly played the games that I had carefully researched before paying for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 No, if I couldn't play any of the old games I probably wouldn't have an 8-bit That's all I'm saying. Access to the vintage software makes this hobby worthwhile. Because the hobby is worthwhile, some people continue to code. If you appreciate their efforts, encourage them with payment. BUT lay off some guy who is making it easier for a neophite to join our community. Are we talking about Sal? Personally, I don't think he's trying to make it easier for neophytes. I think he views the hobby as a business. Besides, spending $30 per game for pirated software makes a lot less sense than getting an SIO2PC IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Are we talking about Sal? Personally, I don't think he's trying to make it easier for neophytes. I think he views the hobby as a business. Besides, spending $30 per game for pirated software makes a lot less sense than getting an SIO2PC IMO. I don't know sal. I'm speaking in general. I read Sal's crimes and think some people are getting over excited, but that's off the top of my head because I don't even know what he sells. In general, I am for proliferation of anything Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Well, I've done a horrible job of shutting-up and the wife's about to get home from work. Nice chatting with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATARI7800fan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I disagree. I do not know a single person who owns an Atari computer because of the new programs. 100% of the people who I know that own an atari computer or run an emulator, do this to play vintage games. A lot of people try new games and some people find new games that are fun and play them, but the hobby is kept alive by nostalgia for the vintage games and hardware. Maybe... I like both and I think more of the console guys are really into the new games. So, if there were no xex or atr or com or bin files, you would buy an Atari computer just to play the homebrew games? Yes exactly. I like to buy older systems mostly because I am impressed with what home-brew programmers are able to do and get out of the old software. I own a Atari 7800 and all the games I own are home-brew Atari 2600 and 7800 games(of course a few of the classics but the homebrew's out way the older games.Same for my Atari 600XL. I own mostly cart based games not really a computer guy, more console). Which I pay for, since anyone's hard work is worth payment in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Just one more(s) of my G2Fs.: Wow! looks great! I want it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Same here. As I said, I think this topic is central to our community and should be discussed. As a producer of commercial products, your input is of interest. It would be nice if we could work out some kind of accomodation. Even though it is WAY beyond the authority of this forum, I wonder if it would help to create a sticky topic where people could propose projects and entertain objections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Yes exactly. I like to buy older systems mostly because I am impressed with what home-brew programmers are able to do and get out of the old software. I own a Atari 7800 and all the games I own are home-brew Atari 2600 and 7800 games(of course a few of the classics but the homebrew's out way the older games.Same for my Atari 600XL. I own mostly cart based games not really a computer guy, more console). Which I pay for, since anyone's hard work is worth payment in return. I think you are unusual. You should pay the developers for your pleasure. That's what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I have always been about the hardware, and doing things with it... i would rather mod a machine for a couple hours then play a game... (dual pokey board i made for someones machine, about 2 hours ago.) sloopy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russg Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) Hmm, I don't know, that Kjmann is simply "pirate"... What a pity... You can read more here: http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1456&page=1#Item_31 (translated version from this link: http://translate.google.pl/translate?hl=pl&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fatarionline.pl%2Fforum%2Fcomments.php%3FDiscussionID%3D1456%26page%3D1%23Item_31 ) Kjmann (Sal Esquivel) comes here to AtariAge. He sells 'Space Harrier', 'Yoomp', anything he can find and put on a MaxFlash cart. I've heard of him being very slow, and sometimes just plain not delivering items he has received money for. About 'Quad', I never heard of it before. Maybe take this opportunity to introduce us to where it can be purchased legally. Right now, he's moving to Oregon from someplace, so he's probably not going to be available. I would guess he gets very little business. I would say he gets no permission for 99.9999% of the commercial, copyright games he sells. Well, I found 'QUAD' for download. Apparently for free, and apparently OK to download. I'm not saying where, just be resourceful. I haven't played it yet. I think the important part is it isn't for sale where I downloaded it. Probably plays on NTSC or PAL, SECAM, 64K. Thanks Arkadiusz Staworzynski, Robert Szerniewicz. Edited August 7, 2011 by russg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari8bitCarts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I think in this somewhere we are missing the point. Most keep it clean. And few bad apples will always exist in which detection and counter measures exist. I personally believe that this stuff is so old that you're in it for reliving the experience, or to expand that previous experience. I have over 300 original 8-bit carts, but do I want to drag them out and play them everytime, no. I bought a multicart from AtariMax and found a really good way to continue enjoying the game play while maintaining the collection. I even had an Atari party and everyone loved seeing those games again. And without the embarrassing situation where the cart you just put in doesn't come up after many attempts. What I hate is ROM's, etc out there which don't work. That world seems unorganized, and is some cases ceede, in my opinion. I'd like to learn about making my own ROM's to archive my carts. I think the line gets crossed when someone that would have bought something (i.e a song/CD (if those even exist anymore >)) but finds another way to get it for free. I try to buy everything that "means" something to me. But I do have copied stuff. That is my rational. This stuff is 30+ years old in some cases. How many carts can someone sell before someone in this community notices. I would think it would take a few, and how someone is making money on selling these for $19.99 with all the labor and materials etc is beyond me. I don't think anyone is getting rich. Guys like GR8 keep "new" going, but we understand what they have. Counterfeit (in my opinion) is someone in China that makes an almost exact copy of something and sells it cheap as the real thing. Some people don't know when to stop. I.E. China has all the packaging including the holograms for Microsoft Windows. I agree with the previous poster, we play and collect these because it reminds of us of a MUCH more simplier and enjoyable time. Not to sound goofy but I really enjoyed watching my 14 years old son play the same video game that I played when I was his age. My only wish is that we start making clear what it is we are selling and buying, original MUST be original. It's late, sorry for the soap box speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATARI7800fan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) Yes exactly. I like to buy older systems mostly because I am impressed with what home-brew programmers are able to do and get out of the old hardware. I own a Atari 7800 and all the games I own are home-brew Atari 2600 and 7800 games(of course a few of the classics but the homebrew's out way the older games.Same for my Atari 600XL. I own mostly cart based games not really a computer guy, more console). Which I pay for, since everyone's(as in the programmers/developers) hard work is worth payment in return. I think you are unusual. You should pay the developers for your pleasure. That's what I do. How am I unusual. I meant to say everyone's work as in the people that wrote and programmed the game as in the developers for it. Edited August 7, 2011 by ATARI7800fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labrat Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I collect and play old games, mostly vintage computer carts. I don't emulate on new hardware, or 'pirate' on old hardware. Like most people here, I love the old games and the nostalgia of playing them on the old hardware. When I buy a new (to me) cart, it is a new game to play. In my view, this experience would be diminished if I just decided to own all downloadable content. I'm not trying to preach this view to others, just to point out that while we all share a common hobby, we each draw our own line in the sand at a different place. My own philosophy aside, I tend to agree with what has been said several times in this thread... I don't have much of a problem with someone in the community who makes what amounts to a few bucks an hour distributing something if the copyright holder has no interest or intention of doing so. But, if someone in the community is working to create or distribute their own content (also probably at what amounts to a few bucks an hour) then the rest of us should respect their rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Yes exactly. I like to buy older systems mostly because I am impressed with what home-brew programmers are able to do and get out of the old hardware. I own a Atari 7800 and all the games I own are home-brew Atari 2600 and 7800 games(of course a few of the classics but the homebrew's out way the older games.Same for my Atari 600XL. I own mostly cart based games not really a computer guy, more console). Which I pay for, since everyone's(as in the programmers/developers) hard work is worth payment in return. I think you are unusual. You should pay the developers for your pleasure. That's what I do. How am I unusual. I meant to say everyone's work as in the people that wrote and programmed the game as in the developers for it. Most people are downloading classics not homebrews... http://www.romnation.net/srv/toprated/atari2600.html http://www.romnation.net/srv/toprated/atari5200.html http://www.romnation.net/srv/toprated/atari7800.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Call it rationalizing if you like, but I don't think it's sensible to try and make like-for-like comparisons between ripping off a CD and and selling someone else's free-to-download 8-bit software as a commercial package without the author's permission, especially when it takes about two minutes to find out who they are and how to contact them, even if you didn't know in the first place. Over here we'd simply call that "s**tting in your own nest", since I understood we're all supposed to be part of a community here, all with a common aim in mind: i.e. trying to keep the Atari 8-bit platform alive. Of course continuing to support commercial vendors is an essential part of that objective, otherwise we find ourselves with no spares, no new hardware, etc. I have, therefore, no issue with anyone who can - if they're lucky - set up a commercial concern and make a few bucks in the process in return for the work they've done. Perhaps they just cover their costs and they're doing it out of the goodness of their heart. Even more commendable. But if we're all gonna "get along", I repeat that we should employ COMMON SENSE and keep authors in the loop. Not being asked first is what pisses people off, and it costs nothing to ask. What's so hard about that? Ask first, and then avoid the need to argue about it after the fact. Copyright violations elsewhere do not make taking liberties with other people's work in the Atari community "OK", and I struggle to see how anyone could argue otherwise, especially when the solution to the problem depends on SIMPLE COMMON SENSE. I'm pleased to see the OSS Action! reference manual on the Atari Sales and Service website is not password protected, despite the claim that "password will be provided with purchase". That would have been a bit cheeky, IMO. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari8bitCarts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) I agree 100%, but keep in mind that the "Free" copies typically appeal to a smaller population. Most want those on carts etc which does cost someone to transfer them. They should work with the publisher, but if the publisher doesn't want to distribute then the publisher should just give their blessing. No one here, that I'm aware of, is selling the ATR, ROM, EXE, etc. They are transferring to a media that a population desires. I.E. MULE on disks, most want the cart transferred version. I don't know who has the rights but here are some examples: http://atari-sales.com/store/carts.html (hey we've moved full circle). Video61 sells reproductions, but apparently with the original chips, etc. And that they bought the licenses(?) Edited August 7, 2011 by chrislynn5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NML32 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 How long is this debate gonna last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari8bitCarts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I personally love my Preppie Cartridge, good example of reviving a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qix_maniac Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) I agree 100%, but keep in mind that the "Free" copies typically appeal to a smaller population. Most want those on carts etc which does cost someone to transfer them. They should work with the publisher, but if the publisher doesn't want to distribute then the publisher should just give their blessing. No one here, that I'm aware of, is selling the ATR, ROM, EXE, etc. They are transferring to a media that a population desires. I.E. MULE on disks, most want the cart transferred version. I don't know who has the rights but here are some examples: http://atari-sales.com/store/carts.html (hey we've moved full circle). Video61 sells reproductions, but apparently with the original chips, etc. And that they bought the licenses(?) funny how the site says "bounty bob strikes back" ***no longer available by request of Bill Hogue*** how about compensating Bill for all the cartridges you sold You guys notice each of the labels for his games has "Kjmann's Atari Sales" so no one "copies" the label and makes their own cause thats © I don't know the profit margin per cart when you sell them for $29.99 but I feel this devalues the original cartridges for those of us who are collecting the originals...anyone agree? I also agree no one is getting "rich" on atari but I'm sure they are supplementing their income several hundred a month which translates to thousands per year Edited August 7, 2011 by qix_maniac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari8bitCarts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) I agree to some extent, but those same people are "saving" this pastime. They are keeping interest. They should be working with the game creator/owner of the rights though. Maybe that owner might have plans for the game later, who knows. The good news that the copyrights will set to, for the most part, expire soon, 2047. I don't believe it devalues the original at all. Us collectors know those, and the value. Copies are just that, copies. Those are for game players that just want to relive the game. Edited August 7, 2011 by chrislynn5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.golden.ax Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 How long is this debate gonna last? Some people are master debaters. AX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATARI7800fan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Yes exactly. I like to buy older systems mostly because I am impressed with what home-brew programmers are able to do and get out of the old hardware. I own a Atari 7800 and all the games I own are home-brew Atari 2600 and 7800 games(of course a few of the classics but the homebrew's out way the older games.Same for my Atari 600XL. I own mostly cart based games not really a computer guy, more console). Which I pay for, since everyone's(as in the programmers/developers) hard work is worth payment in return. I think you are unusual. You should pay the developers for your pleasure. That's what I do. How am I unusual. I meant to say everyone's work as in the people that wrote and programmed the game as in the developers for it. Most people are downloading classics not homebrews... http://www.romnation.net/srv/toprated/atari2600.html http://www.romnation.net/srv/toprated/atari5200.html http://www.romnation.net/srv/toprated/atari7800.html That's the difference I buy home-brews not download. If I can't have a physical copy I do not try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+poobah Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 The good news that the copyrights will set to, for the most part, expire soon, 2047. Works created after 1978 (most, if not all A8 software) are covered for 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was for hire, it is 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter. So assuming an A8 work created by an individual in 1980, who then promptly died, it would be public domain in 2050. The same work "for hire" will be public domain in 2075. Which is a travesty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russg Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Hmm, I don't know, that Kjmann is simply "pirate"... What a pity... You can read more here: http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1456&page=1#Item_31 (translated version from this link: http://translate.google.pl/translate?hl=pl&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fatarionline.pl%2Fforum%2Fcomments.php%3FDiscussionID%3D1456%26page%3D1%23Item_31 ) Kjmann (Sal Esquivel) comes here to AtariAge. He sells 'Space Harrier', 'Yoomp', anything he can find and put on a MaxFlash cart. I've heard of him being very slow, and sometimes just plain not delivering items he has received money for. About 'Quad', I never heard of it before. Maybe take this opportunity to introduce us to where it can be purchased legally. Right now, he's moving to Oregon from someplace, so he's probably not going to be available. I would guess he gets very little business. I would say he gets no permission for 99.9999% of the commercial, copyright games he sells. Well, I found 'QUAD' for download. Apparently for free, and apparently OK to download. I'm not saying where, just be resourceful. I haven't played it yet. I think the important part is it isn't for sale where I downloaded it. Probably plays on NTSC or PAL, SECAM, 64K. Thanks Arkadiusz Staworzynski, Robert Szerniewicz. I tried it. It plays in Atari800winplus 4. Couldn't get it to work in Altirra 1.9. It is much slower in PAL than NTSC. I'm afraid I don't get the game. I can move the blue squares around, rotate them with the space key and make permanent with the fire button (Rt. CNTRL). The slower seems better (PAL). I re-read the instructions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjlazer Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) ok here is the deal. I think most of you whiners are getting overly excited for nothing. Sal has been selling these AtariMax carts for nearly at cost, making cool labels for them and offering them to retro noobs that just want to play some cool retro games from yesteryear on their Atari 800XL they just bought on eBay. All of the software can be downloaded off the net, and most are considered abandonware, and of the newer home brew ones, they are released as freeware anyhow. Just like Space Harrier. I think you all need to relax a little and play a little more Space Harrier. Sure, I think with a few of the titles he should of asked first (Castle Crisis, Quad) but those are released in to the public domain, aren't they? Can't you just make your own AtariMax flash cart with those on them and print your own label? What the big deal? I don't get it. If you want to cry Piracy then most of us are guilty... Edited August 8, 2011 by tjlazer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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