Is the IDE PLUS 2.0 still available (not at Lotharek)

[+Larry]

Hi Roy-

 

Thanks. Somehow when I looked at this before, I did not see the "legend" with the listing of the switches -- probably did not scroll to the right position.

 

Anyway, I've seen it now.

 

-Larry

[atari8warez]

Hey guys, did anyone notice that some of the IDE+2.0 menu selections do not survive reboots. One example is SDX Cartridge. When I set it to OFF and do a ^B everything is OK the cartridge is disabled on the next boot, however if I power cycle the Atari afterwards the setting returns back to SDX ON. Is that by design or is there something wrong.

[+Stephen]

Hey guys, did anyone notice that some of the IDE+2.0 menu selections do not survive reboots. One example is SDX Cartridge. When I set it to OFF and do a ^B everything is OK the cartridge is disabled on the next boot, however if I power cycle the Atari afterwards the setting returns back to SDX ON. Is that by design or is there something wrong.

I believe this is by design - but I can't remember the exact reason. I think it had to do with certain software surviving a reboot?

[+Larry]

Here is what I think I've learned (Firmware 1.2):

 

SDX switch OFF -- Overrides config settings -- it is OFF, period.

 

SDX switch ON -- Overrides config settings -- the next time you power up, SDX is there.

 

EDIT: Unless you do the 8-pin cable as Metalguy66 posts the external cart does not work on the XL. SDX does work on stock XL, but not on my 65816.

EDIT2: On my 65816, if the external cart switch is set to ON with the XL, the system becomes unstable -- bad boots, no boots, can't read IDE.

 

The partition switches are not supported at this time.

 

The write protect switch is not supported at this time.

 

I have not tried the device switch -- have no reason to currently.

 

Anyone find anything different than the above?

 

-Larry

[flashjazzcat]

SDX works fine for me without the 8-pin cable on an XL, although it can't control the external cart, as you say.

[+Larry]

SDX works fine for me without the 8-pin cable on an XL, although it can't control the external cart, as you say.

 

Thanks. Yes, I checked it with a stock 64K 800XL and it works. On my 65816, it dies with the SDX switch set to ON. Didn't expect that, but good to know.

 

-Larry

[flashjazzcat]

 

Thanks. Yes, I checked it with a stock 64K 800XL and it works. On my 65816, it dies with the SDX switch set to ON. Didn't expect that, but good to know.

 

 

And in testing SDX, I discovered the left shift key on my 600XL doesn't work. Not so good to know.

[drac030]

 

Thanks. Yes, I checked it with a stock 64K 800XL and it works. On my 65816, it dies with the SDX switch set to ON. Didn't expect that, but good to know.

 

-Larry

 

Must be a hw problem, because IDE+ (rev. D) is otherwise known to work with 65C816 boards. SDX as well.

[+Larry]

 

Must be a hw problem, because IDE+ (rev. D) is otherwise known to work with 65C816 boards. SDX as well.

 

There are known conflicts with the XL14, and when addressed, these will hopefully go away. In general, the IDE+2 Rev D works well with my 65816.

No problem with the SDX , you know.

 

The XL14 kicks ... (thanks to Bob1200XL.)

 

-Larry

[drac030]

 

There are known conflicts with the XL14

 

What conflicts?

[+bob1200xl]

Conflicts that we know exist, not that we know what they are.

 

The XL14 is getting faster RAM and a larger CPLD. Then, we can address some of these issues. The control registers for the XL14 configuration are in $D1xx. That is a problem, right there.

 

Bob

[morelenmir]

It is over 2 years later as I type. Much like the OP I have been looking for an "IDE Plus II" this evening but couldn't find one. I'm guessing they are gone for good now? Typical, as I am finally in a position to buy one!!! I am afraid it would only have been the one though.

 

Just to second everything that was said back in 2013; I have been thinking about the SIDE 2, but would rather go with this as it is allows you to use a real hard drive without worrying about wearing out a CF card - they have a finite lifespan hugely inferior to a real spinning drive.

Edited May 5, 2015 by morelenmir

[Marius]

It is over 2 years later as I type. Much like the OP I have been looking for an "IDE Plus II" this evening but couldn't find one. I'm guessing they are gone for good now? Typical, as I am finally in a position to buy one!!! I am afraid it would only have been the one though.

 

Just to second everything that was said back in 2013; I have been thinking about the SIDE 2, but would rather go with this as it is allows you to use a real hard drive without worrying about wearing out a CF card - they have a finite lifespan hugely inferior to a real spinning drive.

 

Ask AtariAge member Simius, I think he have some left. They are awesome (don't forget to update the bios to be compatible with all CF cards)

 

I have almost exclusively using CF cards since 2002 and I have never had that wearing out issue. Since a few years I use a 1GB CF cards, and what is important to know is that when I'm correct informed the electronics inside the CF card moves the data around from one cell to another, to spread this issue. There is also an amount of cells that is reserved in case cells do refuse operation, IIRC that is also a lot of data (for atari 8bit standards).

 

The only personal behavior I have changed since a few years, is that when I need to copy an entire partition from sio to CF media, I use a PC tool for that, that copies the entire partition to the CF card. By using file-by-file copy on a 16MB partition with let's say 10000 files will also do also 10000 write cycles to the VTOC sector(s).

 

I find the benefits of using a CF card more important than downsides compared to HD use.

From time to time (once or twice a year) I make a 100% backup (using dd in linux environment) of my CF card. I can use this image with emulator too, and I can use this image to create clones of my CF card. It's very nice.

 

I think IDE+ is one of the best Hard Disk interfaces for atari 8bit; especially when used on computer without Ultimate 1MB.

It even supports the use of ATR files on stock atari computers, which is excellent.

 

If you don't want to go for IDE+, you also might consider an atarimax myide ][ in stead of a SIDE. I have them both, but I find the MyIDE ][ more versatile compared to the SIDE. Side2 is really powerful as soon as you have the U1MB installed, but without that MyIDE ][ has some advantages.

As real harddisk interface the IDE+ is the best choice.

[flashjazzcat]

Just to second everything that was said back in 2013; I have been thinking about the SIDE 2, but would rather go with this as it is allows you to use a real hard drive without worrying about wearing out a CF card - they have a finite lifespan hugely inferior to a real spinning drive.

The CF wear and tear concern is a non-issue. They employ wear levelling and will last for years. Otherwise you'll be using an ageing IDE drive with bearings and moving parts, and that'll probably wear out first.

 

Regarding MyIDE / SIDE again: Prowizard makes good points, but omits to mention that with MYIDE you're left out in the cold on the software side, since it uses a proprietary partition table which is completely incompatible with every other HDD adapter currently available. IDE Plus and SIDE/SIDE2 are media and software compatible, and the partitioning tools are a lot easier to use, IMHO.

[Guest]

what's the success rate of each device?

 

for all it's "non-standardisation" issues - the MYIDE ][ does run ATR and XEX files - from the "Cold/ATR boot" setting ATRs do work

 

what about the SIDE/SIDE2 & IDE Plus 2 ?

are they good across the board with games/apps/demos alike?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Guest

[flashjazzcat]

There are a handful of titles which won't work on each device for various reasons. There are several lengthy threads discussing the pros and cons of each.

 

Yes: MYIDE does ATRs out of the box but it's not bulletproof. It doesn't work with ultimate 1MB, which provides a nice upgrade path for SIDE2. If you have Ultimate or are considering one, buy SIDE. If you want to run ATRs on a non-Ultimate machine, get an IDE Plus or MYIDE II.

 

Prowizard himself helped me to test the Ultimate PBI BIOS last year, which resulted in all non-working ATRs in the test set becoming fully functional. Compatibility is excellent.

 

Since you already have Ultimate in the 1200XL and it has no PBI, SIDE is the best option if you're considering an HDD on that machine (as we already discussed). Only problem is you'll have to file down the cart's shell to fit it into the 1200XL.

Edited May 5, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[Guest]

yes. the trimming of the casing is the only (small) sticking point. - but not a major biggie.

 

what i'm attempting to do myself is get a "best fit" scenario for each of my three upgraded machines:

 

my intention was to run:

1] 1200XL with SIDE or SIDE2

2] 256k 800XL with IDE plus2 - as you kindly added a link to the PBI to carry the power

3] 576xe 800XE or 130XE - with the remaining option MYIDE ][

 

does that sound about the best option?

obviously, "3" is a safer option as it - 576XE upgrade and MYIDE ][ are easily removed which eases the some software issues the 800XE GTIA may have

- only piece of the puzzle i'm currently missing is the SIDE2 - but will see how i get on with my SIDE for now - and how big an issue "hot swapping" becomes.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Guest

[flashjazzcat]

I forgot you had SIDE. I doubt the lack of hot-swap will be an issue, unless you keep your software on half a dozen tiny CF cards rather than one big one.

 

Get an IDE Plus if you can for the 800XL. Of course, if you can afford all three then all the better, but don't take my word for it: test all three devices completely free of charge using Altirra and the corresponding set-up manuals.

[Guest]

i do have an IDE plus2 - it's a "candle o' sin" one - but never set it up - may have a look at this today

[flashjazzcat]

Do you mean Simius? Candle wasn't involved in IDE Plus. Anyway: you won't be disappointed.

[Guest]

yes, my fault - forgetting what i'd previously read on the device

It's markings are:

assembled in Bogart.Pro

IDE Plus 2.0

[c] 2011 JZ & KMK - Rev.C

Edited May 5, 2015 by Guest

[morelenmir]

I appreciate what you mean about the wear-and-tear of solid-state CF cards versus physically moving hard drives. Basically its the finite write cycles of the flash ram cells versus the wear of bearings and motors... I don't know... I'd say it is far easy to screw up a CF with an unnecessarily intensive write campaign as ProWizard mentions than it is to over-stress an IDE drive. Would you believe I still have a fully functional 15GB Maxtor that I bought in 2000! That tends to sway me towards the "IDE Plus V2"...

 

However, my current 'shopping list' for renovation of my 800XL is as follows: "1MB Ultimate" and a "VBXE". Therefore the interoperability of the "SIDE2" with these other two devices does count as a heavy factor in its credit. I really am a bit stuck over this!

 

Aside from having some form of hard drive emulation - whether CF through "SIDE2" or an actual IDE drive through "IDE Plus V2" - I also want to be able to use the many, many cartridge images I have. To that end I am also considering a "MaxFormat 8mbit" to write these onto and then plug in to the cartridge slot as usual, accessing it from a boot menu. Now, as I understand it the "SIDE2" is also a cartridge device, therefore when in use it will also need to occupy the cartridge slot. If, say I wanted to use the 'Atari Assembler Editor' cartridge - via writing it on to the "MaxFormat 8mbit" - but also save the source-code and executables I produce with it on to a hard drive - via writing it to a CF through "SIDE2"... This is an obvious paradox! The "SIDE2" for the hard drive functionality is occupying the same cartridge slot I need for the "MaxFormat 8bit" to run the cartridge image... Arrrgghhh!!! My head explodes!

 

So at the end of all that I am again swung away from "SIDE2" and towards "IDE Plus V2" that occupies the PBI slot and gives a hard drive while leaving the cartridge slot free for 'MaxFormat 8mbit" and 'Atari Assembler Editor'.

[flashjazzcat]

I appreciate what you mean about the wear-and-tear of solid-state CF cards versus physically moving hard drives. Basically its the finite write cycles of the flash ram cells versus the wear of bearings and motors... I don't know... I'd say it is far easy to screw up a CF with an unnecessarily intensive write campaign as ProWizard mentions than it is to over-stress an IDE drive. Would you believe I still have a fully functional 15GB Maxtor that I bought in 2000! That tends to sway me towards the "IDE Plus V2"...

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'd encourage you to read about wear levelling strategies if you're interested in making an informed choice based on durability. My understanding of wear levelling is that the controller spreads writes to a given sector out across the entire extent of the drive, and you have millions of sectors, all with write life cycles in the thousands. Were this not the case, a CF card containing SpartaDOS X partitions would wear out relatively quickly, since SDX re-writes - for instance - the boot sector of the volume every time a file is written. So my personal view is that - unless the CF card is old or of dubious provenance - wearing it out on an 8-bit Atari is a non-issue.

 

Meanwhile, I have a collection of spinning 2.5" IDE hard disks some of which I've used with IDE Plus 2.0, and I eventually switched to a dual CF adapter. The spinning drives were noisy and drew a lot of current (requiring an external supply in most cases), and when they failed (which a couple did), they died completely and instantaneously. Of course they were rather old (as IDE drives tend to be), but I'd rather try and recover data from a CF card with a few dying sectors than a stone-dead IDE hard disk.

 

However, my current 'shopping list' for renovation of my 800XL is as follows: "1MB Ultimate" and a "VBXE". Therefore the interoperability of the "SIDE2" with these other two devices does count as a heavy factor in its credit. I really am a bit stuck over this!

Ultimate 1MB lets you switch the VBXE base from $D640 to $D740 or mask it entirely in software, so they make a good pair. SIDE2 is highly optimised when used with Ultimate because although SIDE works stand-alone, the two devices are also tightly integrated. VBXE, Ultimate 1MB and SIDE2 is a combination that will do just about everything you want if you can afford the outlay.

 

Aside from having some form of hard drive emulation - whether CF through "SIDE2" or an actual IDE drive through "IDE Plus V2" - I also want to be able to use the many, many cartridge images I have. To that end I am also considering a "MaxFormat 8mbit" to write these onto and then plug in to the cartridge slot as usual, accessing it from a boot menu. Now, as I understand it the "SIDE2" is also a cartridge device, therefore when in use it will also need to occupy the cartridge slot. If, say I wanted to use the 'Atari Assembler Editor' cartridge - via writing it on to the "MaxFormat 8mbit" - but also save the source-code and executables I produce with it on to a hard drive - via writing it to a CF through "SIDE2"... This is an obvious paradox! The "SIDE2" for the hard drive functionality is occupying the same cartridge slot I need for the "MaxFormat 8bit" to run the cartridge image... Arrrgghhh!!! My head explodes!

MyIDE II is gonna win out when it comes to cartridge emulation, and IDE Plus 2.0 by virtue of having a cart pass-thru. SIDE2 has an external cartridge, but this is unusable when the Ultimate's PBI HDD is active (although I'm experimenting with changing that), and you'd need to edit any legacy cart images to use the SIDE banking scheme anyway.

 

Having said that, if all you want is the Assembler Editor cart, you can just flash the 8KB Asm/Ed ROM to one of the BASIC slots in Ultimate 1MB using uFlash and you'll have the cart permanently accessible even with SIDE plugged in.

 

So at the end of all that I am again swung away from "SIDE2" and towards "IDE Plus V2" that occupies the PBI slot and gives a hard drive while leaving the cartridge slot free for 'MaxFormat 8mbit" and 'Atari Assembler Editor'.

Re: the above, then, much depends on your cartridge emulation requirements.

Edited May 5, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[morelenmir]

Woah... That's a lot to think about FJC! From what I have read above about the "MyIDE" I had pretty much counted that out totally... It looks like we are all still waiting for that 'perfect' solution to come along - not to mention flash cells based on 'resistive ram'!!!

Edited May 5, 2015 by morelenmir

[morelenmir]

I have been reading the documentation for the ultimate 1MB. It mentions requiring sockets for two of the ROM's that you remove. Are these available separately from Lotharek or perhaps as a part number form Maplins or wherever? Some motherboards have the chips already socketed I understand? As yet I have not dismantled my 800XL's to find out!