New pacman for atari 2600

[+darryl1970]

Thank you! ! Have more of my KoolAid.. lol

I wish I could like this a dozen times.

 

Ghosts are just empty sheets, so there would be no flesh underneath. Thus, the intermissions offer definitive proof that they are indeed "monsters".

[+Random Terrain]

So when Pac-Man eats a monster, its soul goes back to the center cloning machine and a new monster body is created and merged with the soul, then given a fresh Halloween ghost costume to wear? Who made the cloning machine? Did ancient aliens from space or another dimension create it? Why do they make the cloned monsters wear Halloween costumes? Will the monster souls ever be free or are they doomed to be recycled forever? What happens if Pac-Man refuses to eat the monsters that are wearing Halloween ghost costumes? If the monsters grow old and die of natural causes, will their souls still be recycled into cloned bodies?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Ghosts are just empty sheets, so there would be no flesh underneath. Thus, the intermissions offer definitive proof that they are indeed "monsters".

So they are Monsters disguised as Ghosts. With their costumes inspired by a Japanese comic.

 

Case closed!

[Andromeda Stardust]

Double post.

Edited October 11, 2014 by stardust4ever

[Andromeda Stardust]

So when Pac-Man eats a monster, its soul goes back to the center cloning machine and a new monster body is created and merged with the soul, then given a fresh Halloween ghost costume to wear? Who made the cloning machine? Did ancient aliens from space or another dimension create it? Why do they make the cloned monsters wear Halloween costumes? Will the monster souls ever be free or are they doomed to be recycled forever? What happens if Pac-Man refuses to eat the monsters that are wearing Halloween ghost costumes? If the monsters grow old and die of natural causes, will their souls still be recycled into cloned bodies?

I remember hex-editing the tile where the ghosts reenter the ghost room on NES Pacman. I replaced it with a number 7 and converted it to a Game Genie code. Then I ate the ghosts and the floating eyes just roamed the top half of the maze until I casually finished eating the pellets.

[BrianC]

I tested some more Pac-Man ports to see if the tricks work. The getting pac-man to face another direction trick doesn't work in the any of the 2600 homebrews/hacks, the GB/GBC versions (including Ms. Pac-Man), the first GBA version, the first GBA Ms. Pac-Man, or the NES version. It does work in the opcode Colecovision homebrew versions (including Ms. Pac-Man), the DS versions (Pac 'n Roll and Namco Museum DS), the GBA Namco Museum 50th version (including Ms. Pac-Man), the 3DS version in Pac-Man and Galaga Dimensions, the 360 verision, and the console versions of Namco Museum 50th. The rest trick seems to work in all the versions where the direction trick works. The nice thing about the Pac 'n Roll port is that it has the best aspect ratio out of the DS versions, though the trade off is that it's split across both screens.

 

Out of the games I have,I haven't tried out the PSX versions (though I have them), the Atari 800 versions (including Ms. and Jr. proto repro), the Atari 7800 Ms. Pac-Man, the 7800 Jr. Pac-Man homebrew, the NES Ms. Pac-Man, the Genesis Ms. Pac-Man, the GCN Namco Museum, or Namco Museum Megamix Wii yet.

Edited October 12, 2014 by BrianC

[Andromeda Stardust]

Is it that important that a tiny glitch in the original arcade that has zero effect on gameplay (Pacman facing wrong direction when stopped at a wall, big whoop) be reproduced exactly in every port? Even arcade patterns do not work in most ports, where you typically have to create patterns all over again from scratch. And the 2600 is not the best platform to make arcade perfect prots. Less pellets to eat, wrong aspect ratio, etc. The challenge is to create a faithful port of the arcade that feels as much like the real thing as possible. I would place emphasis over creating the best audio/visual and AI/Physiscs that is possible for the selected platform, before worrying about insignificant glitches.

 

But if we were porting to a 16-bit platform like SNES or Genesis, or any of the more advanced 8-bit platforms (7800, NES, etc) which can more accurately portray the original game, then start worrying about logistic stuff like whether Pacman ends the level open mouthed or closed, and cute little joystick tricks like facing Pacman the wrong way. Little things like that don't affect peoples perception of the game.

Edited October 12, 2014 by stardust4ever

[+darryl1970]

Is it that important that a tiny glitch in the original arcade that has zero effect on gameplay (Pacman facing wrong direction when stopped at a wall, big whoop) be reproduced exactly in every port? Even arcade patterns do not work in most ports, where you typically have to create patterns all over again from scratch. And the 2600 is not the best platform to make arcade perfect prots. Less pellets to eat, wrong aspect ratio, etc. The challenge is to create a faithful port of the arcade that feels as much like the real thing as possible. I would place emphasis over creating the best audio/visual and AI/Physiscs that is possible for the selected platform, before worrying about insignificant glitches.

 

But if we were porting to a 16-bit platform like SNES or Genesis, or any of the more advanced 8-bit platforms (7800, NES, etc) which can more accurately portray the original game, then start worrying about logistic stuff like whether Pacman ends the level open mouthed or closed, and cute little joystick tricks like facing Pacman the wrong way. Little things like that don't affect peoples perception of the

I don't think so, but I don't think that was the purpose of the post either. I could be wrong, but I think it was just sharing his research, because some people in this thread wanted to try the trick on their system. I think it's just love of the game and little things shared that may may be new to some. People were asking about their version.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Attention to detail! What's fun for some may look pathological for others.

 

It's solely up to the developer how far he wants to go there.

[+darryl1970]

I wouldn't expect a 2600 version to contain certain details, because many of those things were a result of how the arcade was coded. Something like Pac-Man facing the intended direction, Mario jumping backwards, etc. have more to do with subtleties in the original code. They may or may not have been intended. The 2600 code, especially when cramming into 4k, has to be a lot more streamlined.

 

For those of us who took advantage of these nuances, it's just icing on the cake if a less advanced system includes these things. I don't expect it.

 

However, the ColecoVision Pac-Man Collection was actually adapted from the arcade code. I find that really cool on one level, and I love the accuracy. One the flip side, I really appreciate the Atarisoft version, because that was somebody's interpretation, who didn't have access to the code. So, both version have great merits in my mind.

 

I prefer the emulated versions when played on a newer system. I didn't care for the first GBA Pac-Collection, as I did the Namco 50th, because it was emulated in the latter. The sound suffered on some level, but I still preferred it over the cut-off sampled sounds.

 

As for the 2600, I think this version is great. Not that I have a choice, but I am totally happy with wherever Dintari816 wants to take this.

[Trebor]

It's solely up to the developer how far he wants to go there.

 

...I am totally happy with wherever Dintari816 wants to take this.

[BrianC]

Yeah, I know the direction thing a minor thing and I don't expect it in all versions, but I was interested in seeing which ports have it. What's interesting is that while the Atari 800 version doesn't make Pac-Man face in a direction when doing it, it does make Pac-Man move in the direction that was input at the wall, which can be helpful in some situations. Not to mention that it's worth noting that the GBA version is not as close to arcade perfect as it's made out to be. I also thought the DS versions were worth mentioning since they weren't mentioned previously and both DS versions are well done (one seems to be a port and the other seems to be emulated, but both seem to be accurate).

 

Also don't get me wrong, I like the new 2600 Pac-Mans quite a bit and I'm especially impressed by the sound in this port, not to mention how much was crammed into only 4k. It also makes me wonder about the Atari 800 version, which isn't a bad port, but has more simplistic AI than the 4k 2600 versions. I love seeing what the 2600 can do.

Edited October 12, 2014 by BrianC

[NE146]

I wouldn't call making Pacman/MsPacman face the direction you want them to go next, a "glitch".. it is a subtle part of the true arcade games though. Just is what it is. Whether that gameplay subtlety makes it to a translated port though I agree is relatively inconsequential (moreso on a friggin VCS port). But when or if it does, it's pretty cool in my nerd opinion.

 

That said, obviously it works on Opcodes game because after all his ports are based starting with the actual arcade code.. so voila it's all in there. Heck his Space Invaders Colecovision port in addition to all arcade strategies and quirks working.. even had the secret message!

 

Speaking of movement subtlety in ports.. Worst offender was the Google pacman who's movements were so off you wonder if the team that made it ever even played the arcade Pacman in their lives.

Edited October 12, 2014 by NE146

[BrianC]

I tried a few more ports. The Namco Museum PSX versions of Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man both have the directon trick, but Pac-Man lacks the safe spot. Unlike the arcade, Ms. Pac-Man's mouth is always open when doing the direction trick. Namco Museum GCN has the borders of the PSX version, but more accurate sounds. The safe spot does work in this version. Direction trick works for Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man, but, as with the PSX version, Ms. Pac-Man's mouth is always open. Surprisingly, direction trick even works in Pac-Man Arrangement.

 

I also tried some versions of Super Pac-Man. Behavior for the AC version is similar the the Atari 800 Pac-Man where pressing a direction at a wall makes Pac-Man turn in that direction at the next opening.

Edited October 13, 2014 by BrianC

[Andromeda Stardust]

Speaking of movement subtlety in ports.. Worst offender was the Google pacman who's movements were so off you wonder if the team that made it ever even played the arcade Pacman in their lives.

Would you really expect a port to HTML5 including a company logo within the walls of the maze, to be "arcade accurate?" It plays well enough that people know it's Pacman and gets across it's intended point. It even works in the Wii-U web browser wiht the Dpad. I tried it. Pretty cool.

[NE146]

Would you really expect a port to HTML5 including a company logo within the walls of the maze, to be "arcade accurate?" It plays well enough that people know it's Pacman and gets across it's intended point. It even works in the Wii-U web browser wiht the Dpad. I tried it. Pretty cool.

Fair enough. Obviously it's never been "accurate" (the maze itself says "google" for one ). But it's control scheme is unique amongst all the Pacman ports where if you tap in a direction, when pacman gets to that intersection he WILL take it. That is 100% a new one

[Andromeda Stardust]

Fair enough. Obviously it's never been "accurate" (the maze itself says "google" for one ). But it's control scheme is unique amongst all the Pacman ports where if you tap in a direction, when pacman gets to that intersection he WILL take it. That is 100% a new one

I'm always constantly pressing the joystick/dpad in a direction rather than tapping it when I want to turn, so I never noticed that one.

 

Definitely a bug in the arcade code where say if you move pacman right and you momentarily press and release up while holding right (easy to do on an 8-way, especially if you "round" the corners intermittently pressing diagonals without fully releasing the stick) and Pacman suddenly goes up because it was the last direction pressed even though you're still holding it in the right direction.

 

I get so many dumb deaths that way on my arcade joysticks. PMP 7800 homebrews seem to follow the same conventions as well. I had to train myself to lightly tap directions on my custom Atari joysticks.

Edited October 13, 2014 by stardust4ever

[timdu]

With all this talk about the Pac-man monsters and ghosts, I thought of this article.

 

Pac-Man: When Monsters Became Ghosts

 

http://www.2600connection.com/articles/pac-man_monsters_ghosts/pac-man_monsters_ghosts.html

 

The creator of Pac- Mancalls them "ghost-shaped monsters".... very interesting...

 

 

Tim

[BrianC]

Fair enough. Obviously it's never been "accurate" (the maze itself says "google" for one ). But it's control scheme is unique amongst all the Pacman ports where if you tap in a direction, when pacman gets to that intersection he WILL take it. That is 100% a new one

 

It's not that unique. It's the behavior I have described for Super Pac-Man and the Atari 800 Pac-Man a few posts above.

 

 

 

I also tried some versions of Super Pac-Man. Behavior for the AC version is similar the the Atari 800 Pac-Man where pressing a direction at a wall makes Pac-Man turn in that direction at the next opening.

Edited October 14, 2014 by BrianC

[NE146]

Definitely a bug in the arcade code where say if you move pacman right and you momentarily press and release up while holding right (easy to do on an 8-way, especially if you "round" the corners intermittently pressing diagonals without fully releasing the stick) and Pacman suddenly goes up because it was the last direction pressed even though you're still holding it in the right direction.

 

 

I don't think that happens to be honest.. easy enough to try in Puckman.zip in mame using just the arrow keys to simulate an 8-way.. but if you are on the bottom corridor going right for example.. and holding right. If you also press up (i.e. creating a diagonal North East) and then let go of up while still holding right.. when you come to the end of the corridor, pacman will stop, and remain facing right. Just saying. Not that it's any big a deal of course.. but anyone who's played Pacman enough (we're only talking the original here) that pushing the direction before you get to the corridor allows you to take the turn faster which is important since it allows you to escape closely pursuing ghosts (the 5200/8-bit version for example is notorious for ignoring this).

 

Namco also obviously knowing this behavior, also built it into Pacman Championship Edition DX with the "sparks" that show up if you move the stick even diagonally. So there's gotta be some logic built into the game for joystick presses away from the direction you're going. As I mentioned before . I've always been of the opinion for the past 30 years that when you're parked at a power pill waiting for ghosts to get close, that when they got close I would jump to the powerpill faster if I was facing the pill, vs. facing the wall (and incurring the turning animation). But again I don't know... I'm not exactly Billy Mitchell, or PacmanPlus for that matter. It may be just a childhood myth/old wives arcade tale in my mind .. The source code has been fully deconstructed and commented on out there at this point anyway for anyone to figure that one out I guess.

 

 

 

 

[NE146]

 

It's not that unique. It's the behavior I have described for Super Pac-Man and the Atari 800 Pac-Man a few posts above.

 

 

 

You are friggin RIGHT. I totally forgot about Super Pac, and that's a game I played a lot to the point I thought I was "bad ass" because I could reach the coffee/galaxian/shamrock(?) levels ('course I was wrong) and I remember now getting annoyed initially because it did that.. Duh.

[+darryl1970]

Edit. I see somebody beat me to the claim that the 8 bit Atari ports would take the next turn. . I was typing slowly in my phone. ..

 

An 8 way joystick was never necessary though,as all arcade Pac machines are 4-way.

 

Also loved the article about how Atari called them goats (typo but a funny one...ghosts ), and they are obviously not ghosts,since they have flesh and can't go through the maze walls.

 

I found it interesting that Super Pac-Man started calling them ghosts. Maybe that's why the game flopped so badly. . Lol. Too far away from the original inspiration (although I liked the game. )

 

I am not surprised about Pac Mania, since Atari released it. To use the term ghost is to deny the original heart of the game, but I can see where it's more family friendly to eat something that isn't flesh and doesn't bleed. .. can't deny that flesh foot though, and can't deny that they don't go through walls (except for a cool glitch. .lol)

Fair enough. Obviously it's never been "accurate" (the maze itself says "google" for one ). But it's control scheme is unique amongst all the Pacman ports where if you tap in a direction, when pacman gets to that intersection he WILL take it. That is 100% a new one

Edited October 14, 2014 by darryl1970

[Nukey Shay]

I've always been of the opinion for the past 30 years that when you're parked at a power pill waiting for ghosts to get close, that when they got close I would jump to the powerpill faster if I was facing the pill, vs. facing the wall (and incurring the turning animation).

There is no "turning animation".

 

Regarding ghosts vs. monsters, it makes no difference. Just call 'em enemies. I do find it funny that some people claim to know what a "ghost"'s attributes would be, tho. Esp. since this is a video game where common definitions would not apply anyway. If somebody makes a game with opponents that appear to have solid shapes and hide under colored cloaks while roaming maze corridors, and refers to them as ghosts, so what? They still more-or-less fit the common definition when your character eats one and they return to the center. Roaming monsters, returning ghosts.

[Nukey Shay]

BTW it should be easy to implement the last direction pressed if there's 2 bits of ram available. Just update it when the stick is pressed (during movement). If the character is at rest, use that direction instead of the one used for movement.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Nukey Shay

[Andromeda Stardust]

There is no "turning animation".

 

Regarding ghosts vs. monsters, it makes no difference. Just call 'em enemies. I do find it funny that some people claim to know what a "ghost"'s attributes would be, tho. Esp. since this is a video game where common definitions would not apply anyway. If somebody makes a game with opponents that appear to have solid shapes and hide under colored cloaks while roaming maze corridors, and refers to them as ghosts, so what? They still more-or-less fit the common definition when your character eats one and they return to the center. Roaming monsters, returning ghosts.

In reality, sprites are just little boxes from a physics standpoint. But the animations and colorful shapes of the sprites gives the game personality and feeling. Still though. As far as programming goes, they're just little 8x8 rectangles.

 

I remember reading an interview with Miamoto on developing Super Mario Brothers. When they were ironing out the physics during development of the game, the sprites hadn't even been created yet and they were basically working to create the game with moving rectangles around on a screen. Only after they got the engine perfected, they started to add spit and polish to the colorful characters and backgrounds that eventually became Super Mario Brothers. Shows you why the game was so successful. Most designers would start out with a main character, then try and decide what kind of world to create and how he/she was to interact with the environment.

 

Nintendo did it backwards, and it paid off...