Boulder Dash ROM will not be released

[Ventax1b]

 

 

I doubt they own a Mattel dev kit.

 

Elektronite probably has their own development kit for the Intv hardware.

[Ventax1b]

Boulder Dash is probably a more ambitious project

 

 

20 caves and 5 variants to each cave, plus the easter eggs.

 

My bet is that it took a while to create that. It couldn't be just a 6502 to 6502 port where most of the code remains the same.

[First Spear]

I would appreciate seeing something, maybe a year plus a day after the release, of all easter eggs/etc online. Something to rekindle game interest after it's been out for a while.

[+SoulBuster]

Boulder Dash for the Intellivision is not a port, it was programmed from scratch.

[+intvsteve]

Boulder Dash for the Intellivision is not a port, it was programmed from scratch.

Hmm... what if it had been written for the Keyboard Component? Didn't that have a 6502?

[Andromeda Stardust]

Boulder Dash for the Intellivision is not a port, it was programmed from scratch.

All "ports" to vintage systems are technically reprogrammed from scratch. This was before the days of Unity and C++++ programming where developers could easily port their code over to new systems and architectures. Modern developers have gotten lazy. "Oh, we won't bother to port to the Wii-U because it's not like PS4 and Xbone, but we'll port to PS3 and 360 which are technically less powerful..." Well they just lost a sale...

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Yes Boulderdash is a homebrew. The difference is Boulderdash was licensed. The vast majority of homebrew games are unlicensed, whether they infringe on 3rd party IP or not.

 

Boulder Dash is not 'licensed'. It is co-published by First Star Software, Inc. and my company. I think that First Star would disagree that it is 'homebrew' but I don't speak for them.

 

I guess my involvement in your mind makes it 'homebrew'.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

The only truly effective form of DRM is to not release your product, which is *almost* what First Star has done. If they honestly believe that the Intellivision BD ROM will never be freely shared, I may have a bridge to sell to them, but it's their right to believe in the impossible. Instead all they've done is alienated those of us who detest DRM, and lost sales to .. well, everyone who would buy a ROM, DRM-laden or otherwise. And for what? What have they gained here? The higher moral ground?

 

I think you probably aren't aware that the Boulder Dash cartridge is quite well protected. If you have the ROM why don't you post it? I'll send you a free copy of the game if you do. It has been more than a few months. Surely someone has dumped it, right?

 

Whether I think that an unprotected ROM release would sell poorly or well is irrelevant. This is not my decision to make. The cartridge version isn't 'licensed' it is co-published. The agreement does not include any other type of distribution. I'm not going out of my way to do a ROM release. You are free to step up and make a deal with them to release the ROM 'DRM free'. Nothing stopping you.

[freewheel]

 

I think you probably aren't aware that the Boulder Dash cartridge is quite well protected. If you have the ROM why don't you post it? I'll send you a free copy of the game if you do. It has been more than a few months. Surely someone has dumped it, right?

 

I'm very aware of the protection on the BD carts. It's impressive for the homebrew space. But you're not using some super-secret unbreakable encryption mechanism here, mostly because no such unicorn exists. You hand the means to get the data off the carts to each and every one of your customers, whether you understand that or not. That's how they play it on their console in the first place.

 

And I never said I had the ROM. Nor would I share it if I did. But yes, surely someone has dumped it - or will in the very near future. History is very telling in that respect. If no one's dumped it yet, it's only because the demand just isn't there. Yet.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

Same here, man. I'm thrilled. But really.. that's as far as it needs to go.

 

I smell a rotten smell around people who want to claim a moral high ground when we all damn well know if it weren't for emulation (and the inherent piracy) not a single one of us would be here. Not even the developers.

 

None of you are using original Mattel dev kits that belong to you, few of you have licensed anything you're using to make your games. Sure, First Star endorsed this game... which is a tiny step above.. but did you license your dev kits? Or did you use third party tools and unlicensed emulators?

 

While every effort was made to ask Nintendo for permission, DKA and D2K exist without Nintendo receiving a cent; despite CLEARLY being derivative works. We exist in a grey zone. All of us. Developers and gamers all.

 

But I got my watermarked ROM. And if it got out with my name on it.. I'd be embarrassed. That alone keeps me from giving away D2K. After all, I got it for twenty measly bucks! The fact that it was available for purchase is why I buy it, proud to support the developer. I had a chance to buy a product for a fair price, and I did so.

 

Now, if I wanted to play Boulder Dash.. I'd have to somehow come up with a working Intellivison and, apparently, another 70 dollars to play a game I've already played a thousand times on other systems.... with no assurance I'd still get to play it if my 30+ year old hardware dies again tomorrow.

 

Given all that, what do you think the odds are I'd download a torrent of Boulder Dash tomorrow if it was available, vs what I did for DKA/D2K DESPITE said torrents being around?

 

We're all pirates here. All of us. Developers and players alike.

 

Make it available to me at a fair price and I'll buy it.

 

Continue to with-hold it from me and all I have to do is wait a few months then pirate it.

 

Or, if you somehow keep it away from pirates... I shrug and load it up on my Commodore 64.

 

It comes down to this:

 

Do you want my money or not?

 

This is absolute nonsense.

 

The 'scene' was started by three people....Carl Mueller, Scott Nudds and myself. We reverse engineered my Intellivision and dumped the Exec ROM, Graphic ROM, ECS Exec, Intellivoice RES ROM and later Keyboard Component ROMS in addition to virtually every game for the system.

 

This was done at a time that the Intellivision rights were held by the bankrupt INTV Corp. and had NOTHING to do with Mattel.

 

Carl created the world's first Intellivision emulator for DOS (It ran on a 386 DX40) and at the same time created a development kit. (One of the first new programs was a demo called 'Eggs and Eyes' written by Scott). During this process, Keith Robinson obtained the rights to the Intellivision, formed Intellivision Productions, Inc. and obtained Carl's program which was the basis for the Intellivision Lives release. Our reverse engineering was sanctioned therefore by the rights holders. Indeed....the Exec and GROM on Intellivision lives was a file that came from MY Intellivision and I have no doubt it is the one that is used on the Flashback to this day.

 

All the information we collected was put into a document and released to the public. From that point, people like Joe Zbiciak and Frank Palazzolo got involved and contributed to the knowledge base and development kit. This is essentially the 'Dev' kit that is freely available today.

 

So, aside from that fact that the Intellivision is an 'open system' for development (as proven by the court case Activision vs. Atari) the development kits need not come from Mattel nor be 'licensed' at all. There are no digital locks to break or get around like in the NES (Famicom). There is nothing illegal or even 'grey' about it.

 

So, the whole homebrew community is doing nothing wrong when it creates new games.

 

I don't think that this is a 'moral' issue at all. But to try and imply that somehow Boulder Dash was created in a legal grey area is just bull. First of all, First Star is a co-publisher of the game. They don't 'endorse' it. Secondly, I've already shown that there is nothing 'grey' about our development kit. Thirdly, we have a piece of paper from Intellivision Productions, Inc. that states that we are an AUTHORIZED developer for the Intellivision system. Therefore, there is NOTHING legally grey about the game. Period.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

I'm very aware of the protection on the BD carts. It's impressive for the homebrew space. But you're not using some super-secret unbreakable encryption mechanism here, mostly because no such unicorn exists. You hand the means to get the data off the carts to each and every one of your customers, whether you understand that or not. That's how they play it on their console in the first place.

 

And I never said I had the ROM. Nor would I share it if I did. But yes, surely someone has dumped it - or will in the very near future. History is very telling in that respect. If no one's dumped it yet, it's only because the demand just isn't there. Yet.

 

The game has multiple parts. Not all of which is in memory at the same time. If you find a way to get all of them and stitch them together into a working ROM I'd be very very impressed. It would probably be less effort to just re-write the game. You aren't going to break the encryption on the cart....so, I think that we are very confident that unless myself, Scott, First Star or LTO leak the game, it isn't going anywhere.

[freewheel]

 

You aren't going to break the encryption on the cart....so, I think that we are very confident that unless myself, Scott, First Star or LTO leak the game, it isn't going anywhere.

 

That would literally be a first in the history of digital media. Now I'm not saying that that's impossible, just extremely unlikely. This stuff isn't as difficult as you've been led to believe. The world is littered with the corpses of supposedly "unbreakable" content protection. So far no one's made one that's bulletproof. And it's a mathematical impossibility anyway. OK fine, I'm saying that it's impossible - but I'm leaning on information theory scientists that are far smarter than I am here - they're the ones who've written the proofs.

 

And just as a piece of advice, challenging people publicly to do it is a great way to see it happen. That may come across as confrontational and a bit obnoxious, but I'm saying it in all sincerity and trying to be the nice guy here. The more you prod certain types of people, the more likely they'll take you up on it. Mind you, you may not particularly care if you're exiting the business as has been rumoured. *shrug*

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

That would literally be a first in the history of digital media. Now I'm not saying that that's impossible, just extremely unlikely. This stuff isn't as difficult as you've been led to believe. The world is littered with the corpses of supposedly "unbreakable" content protection. So far no one's made one that's bulletproof. And it's a mathematical impossibility anyway. OK fine, I'm saying that it's impossible - but I'm leaning on information theory scientists that are far smarter than I am here - they're the ones who've written the proofs.

 

And just as a piece of advice, challenging people publicly to do it is a great way to see it happen. That may come across as confrontational and a bit obnoxious, but I'm saying it in all sincerity and trying to be the nice guy here. The more you prod certain types of people, the more likely they'll take you up on it. Mind you, you may not particularly care if you're exiting the business as has been rumoured. *shrug*

 

I've fulfilled my obligations on ROM security to my co-publisher.

 

I have nothing to say regarding their wishes for digital distribution.

 

Sure, it isn't impossible to dump......but pretty darn next to. So, it is not inevitable that the game is going to be freely distributed as you stated previously. I think that you underestimate the difficulty of the task. Makes no difference to me if you want to try and waste your time and effort. I'm sure some have tried already.

[freewheel]

Sure, it isn't impossible to dump......but pretty darn next to. So, it is not inevitable that the game is going to be freely distributed as you stated previously. I think that you underestimate the difficulty of the task. Makes no difference to me if you want to try and waste your time and effort. I'm sure some have tried already.

 

It'll be easier than many other more complex mechanisms that have already been broken. It just needs the right person to get to it. Fortunately demand for this is exceedingly small (we have what, 500 potential customers tops for something like this). It's not undumped because of difficulty. It'd undumped due to lack of demand.

 

And yes, many have tried and I've chuckled at the results of the few that I've seen. But it will happen, and probably a lot sooner than you think. It's inevitable because it's already happened to literally every other format/mechanism ever tried. I'd actually put good money on it already having happened, but the party responsible being discrete and respectful about it. Most people who do these things try not to shit all over commercial returns... for a time. Or until a rightsholder starts being a prick about it (*waves at Capcom*).

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Sure, it isn't impossible to dump......but pretty darn next to. So, it is not inevitable that the game is going to be freely distributed as you stated previously. I think that you underestimate the difficulty of the task. Makes no difference to me if you want to try and waste your time and effort. I'm sure some have tried already.

Be careful what you say. If you challenge the wrong person, he might crack it. Just for the challenge.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Be careful what you say. If you challenge the wrong person, he might crack it. Just for the challenge.

 

I've no doubt that there are some people who have already attempted it. The real question is time vs. reward.

 

It won't affect me however, regardless, as I've chosen not to risk any money selling Boulder Dash ROMS.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

I don't think that this is a 'moral' issue at all. But to try and imply that somehow Boulder Dash was created in a legal grey area is just bull. First of all, First Star is a co-publisher of the game. They don't 'endorse' it. Secondly, I've already shown that there is nothing 'grey' about our development kit. Thirdly, we have a piece of paper from Intellivision Productions, Inc. that states that we are an AUTHORIZED developer for the Intellivision system. Therefore, there is NOTHING legally grey about the game. Period.

Authorised developer = licensed

 

 

Boulder Dash is not 'licensed'. It is co-published by First Star Software, Inc. and my company. I think that First Star would disagree that it is 'homebrew' but I don't speak for them.

 

I guess my involvement in your mind makes it 'homebrew'.

Generally homebrew is defined as any non-commercial software developed after a system is discontinued. Unlicensed is defined as unauthorised commercial software created during a system's lifetime. You helped create Boulderdash long after the system's commercial support ended, and have the blessing from both Intellivision and First Star, but as you likely didn't get paid for the development or certainly didn't earn a living off of it, it's still technically noncommercial or homebrew, ie = licensed homebrew.

 

Be careful what you say. If you challenge the wrong person, he might crack it. Just for the challenge.

Also, as other people have stated, publicly declaring that your game is "undumpable" in a forum full of hackers and programmers is like placing a cookie jar in front of a child and telling them they cannot have the cookies, then non-chalantly walking out of the room. It's basically an open invitation.

Edited August 15, 2015 by stardust4ever

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Authorised developer = licensed

 

Generally homebrew is defined as any non-commercial software developed after a system is discontinued. Unlicensed is defined as unauthorised commercial software created during a system's lifetime. You helped create Boulderdash long after the system's commercial support ended, and have the blessing from both Intellivision and First Star, but as you likely didn't get paid for the development or certainly didn't earn a living off of it, it's still technically noncommercial or homebrew, ie = licensed homebrew.

 

Also, as other people have stated, publicly declaring that your game is "undumpable" in a forum full of hackers and programmers is like placing a cookie jar in front of a child and telling them they cannot have the cookies, then non-chalantly walking out of the room. It's basically an open invitation.

 

I get that you guys are having a hard time grasping that Boulder Dash for Intellivision can be anything but 'homebrew' so, I know I'm not convincing you, but let me go through your definition of homebrew.

 

Non-commercial .....I looked it up on google.

 

non·com·mer·cial

adjective

adjective: non-commercial

1. not having a commercial objective; not intended to make a profit.

   "a noncommercial radio station"

Clearly, this is a commercial release because it is intended to make a profit.

 

I looked up 'license' on dictionary.com (I've included only the first three definitions)

license

noun

1. formal permission from a governmental or other constituted authority to do something, as to carry on some business or profession.

2. a certificate, tag, plate, etc., giving proof of such permission; official permit: a driver's license.

3. permission to do or not to do something.

 

Granted, we could say that we are 'licensed' to do Intellivision games from Intellivision Productions, but we don't publicly use any such 'proof' of said permission because, well, we only have it because these days, people think that you can be sued (despite Atari vs. Activision) for creating games on systems without digital locks. (You can't be sued) When dealing with companies like the Tetris Company, they want 'proof' that the system rights owners won't come back and sue.

 

Since the game is co-published by First Star, they clearly aren't giving me 'permission to do something' (paid or not) because THEY are publishing it WITH me. So, no 'blessing' required from First Star.

 

Regarding your comment '..likely didn't get paid for the development or certainly didn't earn a living off of it..', the programmer certainly got paid. I know that programming video games isn't his only source of income, but that matters not. Both First Star and Classic Game Publishers get paid whenever a game is sold. The more copies that sell, the more we get paid.

 

I'm fairly certain that First Star doesn't survive on one title for one system. Certainly, I never expected to retire on the profits.

 

One product does not a business make.

 

So, let's summarize. Boulder Dash for Intellivision is a commercial product for a discontinued system which is authorized (licensed) by Intellivision Productions. So, we've 're-started' commercial support for a discontinued platform.

 

Aside from publishing a new game for a discontinued platform, I don't meet your definition. However, I'm certain that you will still insist it is 'homebrew' . Whatever. I'm homebrew then.

 

I'll have to tell the president of First Star Software that now that he's supported a discontinued video game, he's a 'homebrewer'....I'm sure he'll find it amusing.

[tep392]

The key must certainly lie inside the cartridge or the Intellivision could not decrypt it. So let the Intellivision do the work. I would think a logic analyzer hooked up the an Intellivision might be a good approach to grabbing the data.

[+5-11under]

The data is inside a microcontroller. Reading the data from the cartridge slot will only get you so far, because of the bankswitching - maybe not bankswitching so much, but definitely not all the data is available from the cartridge slot at any given moment. To properly read all the data, you likely need to either read the locked data from the microcontroller somehow, or decap (or possibly x-ray) the part to physically see the bits (I'm guessing this is possible for flash technology, but I'm not 100% sure). You may also be able to remove the locking mechanism after decapping.

[tep392]

That's why I suggest a logic analyzer. If the data's visible to the CPU, it's visible to the logic analyzer. It can also be used to figure out the bank switching scheme. Then the emulators would need to be updated to replicate the bank switch logic.

[freewheel]

 

Aside from publishing a new game for a discontinued platform, I don't meet your definition.

 

That IS the definition. Otherwise, basically none of us are homebrewers. Everyone is selling these for money in the end, at least those that get released.

 

The ONLY difference is that in the case of BD, you have a 30-year old IP holder involved. So what, BD is a commercial release, but Christmas Carol is homebrew, because it's new IP? That's silly. Is it because you make the claim that you're a commercial entity? That's equally silly - a person does not need to incorporate, or whatever you think makes you different, in order to run a commercial enterprise. Is it the high quality boxes? Plenty of commercial entities release software sans boxes, even back in the day.

 

The reason BD is repeatedly described as "licensed" is that they (from what's been told) had very little to do with it. You can spout off about "co-publishing" all you want, but you've as much admitted that they didn't program it, they didn't manufacture it, and they didn't distribute it. All they did was give their blessing to its release in return for payment. It'd be no different if I "co-published" a Mickey Mouse game for the INTV today with Disney. I could call it that I all I wanted, but you damned well know Disney would basically be letting me publish a MM game in exchange for a big cheque. Even IF someone at Disney checked out release builds, and heck, helped with some testing. It'd still be described as a licensed game and always has been. That's how this industry works. Go look up how ET or the Tron games were done sometime - those rightsholders had a ton of involvement in the games. And people still call them licensed.

 

You created these claims on your words alone, because you're trying to elevate yourself above everyone else due to factors you've constructed solely in your mind, for motivations that aren't terribly transparent. And you wonder why people take issue with them?

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

That IS the definition.

 

Says you. I disagree.

[+5-11under]

That's why I suggest a logic analyzer. If the data's visible to the CPU, it's visible to the logic analyzer. It can also be used to figure out the bank switching scheme. Then the emulators would need to be updated to replicate the bank switch logic.

 

This is all in theory of course. This thread has taken a number of turns, so... .

 

You'd still need to be able to determine when/where any switching of memory takes place. Maybe that's easy? I'm not sure. Maybe it conforms to a programming guide? For most Atari 2600 games, for instance, you know what memory locations to "touch" to access another bank.

[freewheel]

The data is inside a microcontroller. Reading the data from the cartridge slot will only get you so far, because of the bankswitching - maybe not bankswitching so much, but definitely not all the data is available from the cartridge slot at any given moment.

 

This isn't even close to an obstacle when it comes to dumping carts. Whomever convinced William that this "protects" games is selling snake oil.

 

Plenty of bank-switched carts exist out there, and they've all been dumped. The entire famicom/NES library consists of literally hundreds of bank-switching schemes far more complicated (when taken as a whole) than anything that exists for our puny system. And there remains not a single undumped famicom/NES cart.