FPGA Based Videogame System

[NE146]

 

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

I don't pirate stuff because I don't like being overwhelmed with fullsets and spend an hour deciding which game to play, then realizing I don't have the time to play it anymore.

Yeah man that syndrome hit me hard once upon a time and took a while to break out of it. When I got a CD burner and was able to burn PSX games, I found myself with spindles of hundreds of games and barely playing anything. And that state of paralyzation continued for years especially with emulation, etc. and after a decade+ I thought about it and realized I really hadn't played anything of note. lol

 

So eventually (not too long ago actually) I tried to go back to the mindset of "One game at a time".. just like it was when I could only afford to purchase one game at a time and got good, or simply finished it (e.g. NES Ninja Gaiden, or SMS Phantasy Star). Or for today "One game at a time per system". So I choose a game on a console, I try to stick with it when I play that console until it is finished, or at least until I've had enough. It requires a little discipline to keep going back to the same game again and again for a period of time, but at the end of the day I don't torture myself. If a game is a dud, I move on. Overall though I'd say I'm much more happier enjoying gaming this way..  forcing the focus on single games just as I used to when it was the only option I had.  

Edited September 4, 2023 by NE146

[Tanooki]

I've got the same issue too, and it's hard.  As it is right now, my flash kits and I are largely at a stalemate and getting dusty.  I have used the n8 (NES) a few times, but that's about it, and mostly because I didn't have zapper games after I got a capable screen fairly recently.  Gameboy, Advance, NES, SNES, GG and Gen all have kits, all 99% disused.  Why?  Flash kit ADHD basically.  I can't decide, too much stuff, if I do get into one it's minutes not hours or days because there's too much there and with no money(kit aside obviously) in the game I don't value bothering with it more.  I have on the 8bit side of Nintendo (NES&FC/GB-C) around 190 or so games.  16bit (SNES&SFC/Gen&MD) around another 130 or so, and nearly 70 on the GBA format too.  I'm NOT hurting for choice even if many of them I've had all along so I don't need to revisit but I could, yet still leaves me with heaps of choice.

 

I'm trying to sell my New2DSXL and games on it and DS games too (around 35 titles) locally to remove more distraction as it just sleeps, and Gamecube I'm very on the fence on with too given fiaky overcompressed mini-dvds and touchy drives, because the microSD choice is just another flash kit I don't want.  Right now when I buy it's to play or forget it, not for trades/profit.

 

That was a big consideration with the pocket and what was making me angry about it because i was NOT going to touch those cores, another form of flash kit, and when I couldn't properly enjoy the games I own how i wanted to with the device it was basically dead to me after thinking it over for a time.

[Atariboy]

Since I've been complaining about Analogue support and being vocal about my issue here since I thought that I was getting the old brush off, it's only fair to pass along that I was contacted tonight with apologies about them being super busy and that their engineers are looking into it.

 

If anything of interest comes of this (one of the most respected OpenFPGA programmers in the Pocket scene isn't convinced it's even a real hardware fault and he knows a heck of a lot more about this than I do), I'll be sure to pass it along for anyone that may be curious about the strange issues that have been happening on my system.

 

Feeling much better about Analogue at the moment. I don't mind the occasional bad luck (faulty components sneaking through is simply a fact of life with complicated electronics), a minor core inaccuracy here and there, etc. But I want to feel like I can count on Analogue to eventually patch out issues, address hardware faults under warranty (and hopefully for a reasonable fee after warranty when possible within the constraints of parts availability), etc.

[M-S]

Three FPGA based consoles were shown on Tokyo Game Show today, a Saturn, something that looks like a FC/SFC/MD combo and a PS2.

 

Other than the triple system I find it kind of hard to believe these consoles, I see this is a Hyperkin stand and they mention Retron. The triple one has an external module for the cartridges, maybe it connects with an USB, so probably it's a dumper FPGA console. The "PS2" uses a PS1 Mini case, and the "Saturn" uses a decorative mini case that was released a while ago, of course these can't fit a disc, so they probably loads ISOs through either an external drive or a SD slot.

 

Both of these systems seem way too powerful for an FPGA so early, so my theory is that either they are hiding something or it's a hybrid approach, it's not just a single chip simulating the entire console, the SuperHitachi-2 CPUs for the Saturn are still used nowadays in Wi-fi modems, the same goes for the SH-1, there are also the VDPs and the Yamaha sound chip. It also happens that the SH chips have an almost perfect open source core for Xilinx FPGAs, they might be using one of those, as for the "PS2" I have no clue.

If anyone knows Japanese could you please read those signs?

[SegaSnatcher]

2 hours ago, M-S said:

Three FPGA based consoles were shown on Tokyo Game Show today, a Saturn, something that looks like a FC/SFC/MD combo and a PS2.

 

Other than the triple system I find it kind of hard to believe these consoles, I see this is a Hyperkin stand and they mention Retron. The triple one has an external module for the cartridges, maybe it connects with an USB, so probably it's a dumper FPGA console. The "PS2" uses a PS1 Mini case, and the "Saturn" uses a decorative mini case that was released a while ago, of course these can't fit a disc, so they probably loads ISOs through either an external drive or a SD slot.

 

Both of these systems seem way too powerful for an FPGA so early, so my theory is that either they are hiding something or it's a hybrid approach, it's not just a single chip simulating the entire console, the SuperHitachi-2 CPUs for the Saturn are still used nowadays in Wi-fi modems, the same goes for the SH-1, there are also the VDPs and the Yamaha sound chip. It also happens that the SH chips have an almost perfect open source core for Xilinx FPGAs, they might be using one of those, as for the "PS2" I have no clue.

If anyone knows Japanese could you please read those signs?

Yeah, I call BS on the FPGA PS2.   The hardware needed to write a PS2 core would be quite expensive and writing such a core would require some serious time and skills.   

[M-S]

What I really doubt is the "perfect compatibility" they mention, but more info on the console and the company making it: It's called Tassei Denki, and they really are a partner of Hyperkin, it appears that these consoles could launch in late 2024 and they are in fact part of the RETRON line. The weird part is that they are also making the Retron GX, a TG-16 clone that we are almost sure uses software emulation, then why go for consoles that are so complicated right now? Just for showcase, maybe? And how much would a console like that cost if they really use more than one FPGA core or other ICs? Consoles with a single FPGA are already so expensive.

If anyone knows a Japanese person that could be interested in this please tag them here, I don't want to use machine translation and possibly post wrong information.

Also, completely unrelated: 

And I completely missed that in the first post, there's a 3DS clone, it's ARM based, just like the original and not an FPGA, so I won't talk about it here.

Edited September 22, 2023 by M-S

[newtmonkey]

It's impossible to tell just by those tweets.  The first one is just regurgitating PR about how it's FPGA technology, and the second is a bunch of nonsense about how the presenters speak broken Japanese (I wonder how fluent pusai is in English) and then showed something "amazing" and just leaves it at that.  I think it's all just a bunch of garbage emulation crap, personally.

 

The signs are just too blurry for me to even spend the time to attempt to read them.  Even if they claimed 100% pure FPGA accuracy, it would be doubtful.  There are certainly no details written on any of the signs.

 

The CEO of the company is Andrew Steel, and checking his LinkedIn profile throws up a bunch of warning signs.  He's simultaneously the CEO of Tassei Denki and the Director of Business Development at Dashine Electronics (the parent company of Tassei Denki, in China), while also being a consultant at legendary garbage company HYPERKIN (formerly Director of Engineering).  So all signs point to these being shitty emulation devices.

 

Also, here's the GitHub for their "FPGA" GBA, which is actually just some board they've populated with a bunch of parts from a dead GBA.

https://github.com/tasseidenki/kozuka/

Edited September 23, 2023 by newtmonkey

[M-S]

Madlittlepixel made a video on it, the triple system is in fact a Mister with a cartridge dumper, the same for the Game Boy. It's literally impossible for them to sell this, how much would it cost? Almost 1000U$ maybe? And if people were mad because of the stolen emulators on the Retron 5 this will be even worse.

But I already knew the translation for the tweets, I wanted to know what was written in the signs on the pictures, specially on the Saturn and the PS.

[cybercylon]

He also pointed out in that video that these may all be proof of concept things that may not see the light of day.

Edited September 23, 2023 by cybercylon
spelling

[Atariboy]

It's that time of year again.

 

[Tanooki]

Sigh...not that bs again.  I will give them credit, they had been running a really good setup for awhile with their earlier systems, good warning, good supply, got things out -- then they got comfortable.  Yet recently they've been pumping out those odd colors of the pocket in exceptionally fast turn around, but then there's dedicated Group C, and the Duo.  It makes you wonder what's going on, but hopefully it'll keep improving.  Maybe it's Duo, maybe they'll refresh the NES, SNES, Gen, Neo with their screwball new store/core front OS too.

 

I don't really want to support how they've done things, but damnit if they did a MVS system again at that 200-250 range for HDMI I could not find any rational excuse not to buy it, same with the NES even if I have a HDMI kitted top loader because new parts vs 30 year old parts.

[Atariboy]

I've seen a lot of Neo Geo speculation given the recent 8BitDo controller and the colors Analogue is using to announce their pending announcement.

[impetus_maximus]

6 hours ago, Tanooki said:

same with the NES even if I have a HDMI kitted top loader because new parts vs 30 year old parts.

what about the AVS?

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, Atariboy said:

I've seen a lot of Neo Geo speculation given the recent 8BitDo controller and the colors Analogue is using to announce their pending announcement.

That would be great, but it's not like the cartridges are common. It's also one of the easier libraries to get officially emulated. Unless there was a plan for new production runs of compatible cartridges, I can't see it being viable. Perhaps if it was CD-based with some speed-up routine. The CD games are far less expensive, but still not as readily accessible as the more common systems. So yeah, unless it was enabled on the Duo, I'd be skeptical as a purely stand-alone offering.

[Atariboy]

That's a definite issue if they go down that route.

 

Perhaps they think that the allure of a modern Neo Geo is enough to attract a fair number of buyers that go into it with the jailbreak in mind? Or maybe it will include the Pocket's OpenFPGA aspect, with the hope that will help sell it to people that didn't already purchase the Pocket or bought a Pocket to serve purely as a handheld?

 

Will be interesting to see what they have planned (which could easily have absolutely nothing to do with the Neo Geo). And hopefully we'll also get an update on Duo preorders, Pocket firmware updates, and the Pocket's cartridge adapters.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Atariboy

[roots.genoa]

9 hours ago, Atariboy said:

Or maybe it will include the Pocket's OpenFPGA aspect, with the hope that will help sell it to people that didn't already purchase the Pocket or bought a Pocket to serve purely as a handheld?

That's where I don't think a NeoGeo clone would be the right candidate. I think a PlayStation clone would be less niche, and not only would you get a CD drive for other CD-based systems, but it could also have a generic cart slot for adapters (NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.) to really benefit from the OpenFPGA platform. But that's just my opinion, or rather wish (even though I'm not a fan of PlayStation, actually, not at all even).

[Pixelboy]

4 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

I think a PlayStation clone would be less niche, and not only would you get a CD drive for other CD-based systems, but it could also have a generic cart slot for adapters (NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.) to really benefit from the OpenFPGA platform.

We already have a name for that. It's called the Zimba 3000. 

 

[Tanooki]

@impetus_maximus Nothing is wrong with it, it's new parts too, but isn't it commonly out of stock and as such when people sell one it gets scalper priced?  I've just found it very strange that analogue won't go back to do the NES given its obscene popularity with people of all ages at this point in time.  There's plentiful stock, numerous flash kits now, and  you can get quality 1:1 bootlegs of translated games, hacks, etc so there's enough interest yet they won't touch it.  I get it with NeoGeo that's niche as all get out, but the NES seems like a very very strange choice.

[Atariboy]

Going back to what Bill said, it brings up an interesting point. Where does Analogue go from here? They've hit most of the obvious classic platforms that enjoy a large amount of popularity among the average classic gaming fan. Newer platforms ramp up the complexity and thus the cost, development resources, and the required FPGA power to realize a working core all rise exponentially. Further, even some obvious choices that appear within reach these days like PS1 have major issues such as with copyrighted bios files.

 

While I think that unmet demand and additional features will allow them to revisit some of their past hits in the coming years (for instance a Mega Sg successor with a built-in CD drive for Sega CD titles like the Analogue Duo will have), the list of obvious choices is declining fast.

 

Just maybe if this is the Neo Geo, it might help them evaluate if some of these more niche platforms could financially succeed in the future like an Atari 2600/7800. While I personally don't think of the 2600 as niche, a lot of the market that buys 2600 branded products are the casuals that buy something like an AtGames, MyArcade, or console compilation on a whim to revisit some memories. The demand for a high end $200-$250 FPGA version appears to be significantly smaller than some of the platforms Analogue has done previously.

 

We even have folks that are such Analogue diehards that they're picking up every color Analogue makes available for the Pocket. So they'll probably buy an Analogue system just to collect it even if they sadly have no intention of playing a game on it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Atariboy

[roots.genoa]

1 hour ago, Pixelboy said:

We already have a name for that. It's called the Zimba 3000. 

 

I know, I really think Analogue's good sense of marketing was a nice addition to Kev's talent, if you catch my drift. 😉

[roots.genoa]

32 minutes ago, Atariboy said:

We even have folks that are such Analogue diehards that they're picking up every color Analogue makes available for the Pocket. So they'll probably buy an Analogue system just to collect it even if they sadly have no intention of playing a game on it.

Oh yeah, don't get me started on this, that drives me nuts. On paper I could afford getting as many Pockets as them but what's the point? My Pocket works fine and I can't play several of them at the same time... 🤔

[Tanooki]

@Atariboy Has a point on that older stuff pre-Nintendo, where do you go from there?  Right now look at the press about the HDMI 2600-7800 style system.  You have interest sure, but you also have a number of people looking at how cool that supposedly is vs the sloppy retron device, but then they get sticker shock hard core.  That's a big ask for what runs some 40 year old games most just don't care about or have nostalgia for, explicitly at that price.  They were fine with the physical/digital atari package of games, they were fine with the dopey flashback devices and earlier tv games funk with the stick or paddle/spinner and they were like sub $20 toys.  I don't see analogue having a way with that one unless it's all internet whiners and that HDMI device sells hundreds of thousands of units to make them feel it's a safe space to do an Atari catch-all.

 

The Sega makes sense because you have the 32X and CD, make a combo unit, one where you don't have to deal with the tower of pain and all those crappy wires and numerous ac adapters.  As it is now they're damned system won't run some of that stuff now without using the DAC as it needs a workaround for the 32X which sucks.  Neo Geo would be a choice, but only if they did something like the analogue duo/retrousb AVS where you have dual slots on top (or pack in the AES adapter) and have a NeoCD drive on the front as well.   That would get it to where you could theoretically make sense to revisit it.

 

SNES and NES the SNES one has no extras and it works, that would be largely a refresh.  The NES though was an oddity, first killing consoles for chips and stuff, then they went with the mini which was a legit board but they ghosted it years ago too leaving the space open to terrible china crap and giving the AVS a free pass so that could be sustainable.

 

Do they make another version of the analogue pocket but like Hyperkin make some asinine 'CUBE' that just works on TV only so you can slide in various games, have a few port sizes so they can ignore the stupid ripoff adapter package?  Maybe make it like a tiny toaster where you have a GB/A, GG, NGPC slot array on top?  I'd get that, if it unlike their shitty dock with the pocket actually worked out of the box as advertised.

 

I don't see them doing some me-too encapsulation thing trying to take on myarcade, etc and having their own arcade wonder, nor doing custom carts and trying to screw evercade out of the market either as they're both established and retail, analogue never went retail location.

[impetus_maximus]

2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

@impetus_maximus Nothing is wrong with it, it's new parts too, but isn't it commonly out of stock and as such when people sell one it gets scalper priced?  I've just found it very strange that analogue won't go back to do the NES given its obscene popularity with people of all ages at this point in time.  There's plentiful stock, numerous flash kits now, and  you can get quality 1:1 bootlegs of translated games, hacks, etc so there's enough interest yet they won't touch it.  I get it with NeoGeo that's niche as all get out, but the NES seems like a very very strange choice.

it was (is?) but says pre-orders are shipping winter 2023. RetroUSB store has a 'buy' button for the AVS. do they now have stock, or is that still pre-order? 🤔 i'm glad i bought one when i did. was waiting for the HighDefNES be in stock for my top loader, and then that went EOL (end of life) 😵 seems they were busy fitting them to top loaders where some were paying $700 on FleaBay for one? WTF

 

it is strange. if Analog do go back to the NES, for the love of god make the cartridge slot better! aluminum wet dream case with a shet slot.

 

the EverDrive N8 Pro is awesome. love how it keeps you at the same point in the menus when you re-enter it. (looking at you FXPAK Pro!) also love the save states. can get good at games i never thought i would beat. yeah just in hacks and translations there is a TON of fun to be had for sure. then you look at all the new homebrew/inde games!

Edited October 12, 2023 by impetus_maximus
forgot somethin

[Pixelboy]

With 8BitDo having just released their Retro Mechanical Keyboard product, could Analogue's next product actually be a multi-computer FPGA system, which emulates the Atari 8-bit computers, VIC-20, Commodore 64, MSX, Coleco ADAM, ZX Spectrum, TRS-80, TI 99/4A, etc.? With an SD card slot replacing the old disc drive to read/write programs and data, and a recommended third-party modern USB printer (like the small black-and-white Samsung printer I have at home, for example) this could actually be a cool all-in-one retro product.

 

By the way, did Analogue release all the advertised cart adaptors for the Pocket? I didn't follow that too closely, but if they haven't, perhaps they should finish what they started?

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Pixelboy

[8th lutz]

1 hour ago, Pixelboy said:

By the way, did Analogue release all the advertised cart adaptors for the Pocket? I didn't follow that too closely, but if they haven't, perhaps they should finish what they started?

 

Nope. My younger brother is one of the people that pre-orders the cart adaptors for the pocket and he still didn't get his cart adaptor yet.