MiSTer FPGA

[youxia]

5 hours ago, adamchevy said:

The difference is very noticeable when playing games like Einhander.

But Einhander originally allowed only for the d-pad. So whether you're using PS5 or PSOne shouldn't really matter, assuming you're using the sticks. I think even analog controls should work on modern Dualshocks too, in games that allowed for that.

Edited August 2, 2022 by youxia

[adamchevy]

But Einhander originally allowed only for the d-pad. So whether you're using PS5 or PSOne shouldn't really matter, assuming you're using the sticks. I think even analog controls should work on modern Dualshocks too, in games that allowed for that.

It’s the Latency that feels different.

[Steven Pendleton]

2 hours ago, adamchevy said:

It’s the Latency that feels different.

The wired PS5 controller only has 1.809ms of lag on MiSTer according to the MiSTer lag database, and I doubt think the human brain is capable of perceiving that speed as anything other than instantaneous, so maybe your PS5 controller is broken or something.

[adamchevy]

The wired PS5 controller only has 1.809ms of lag on MiSTer according to the MiSTer lag database, and I doubt think the human brain is capable of perceiving that speed as anything other than instantaneous, so maybe your PS5 controller is broken or something.

I was using it over Bluetooth. It was noticeably different.

[Steven Pendleton]

5 minutes ago, adamchevy said:

I was using it over Bluetooth. It was noticeably different.

Over Bluetooth it supposedly has 6.322ms of lag according to the lag database, which I also doubt that the human brain is capable of detecting.

[youxia]

28 minutes ago, adamchevy said:

I was using it over Bluetooth. It was noticeably different.

It could be also down to your BT receiver. I've heard that they are not all equal. Anyway, if the PSOne feels better then fair dos, just use that.

[adamchevy]

Over Bluetooth it supposedly has 6.322ms of lag according to the lag database, which I also doubt that the human brain is capable of detecting.

My brain runs much faster than most. Unless you have severe ADHD like I do. I’ve had my brain chemicals tested and they mostly run about 20% higher than they should. I’ve tried many medications and they all make me feel like I’m tripping, and not in a good way.

 

I’m probably just imagining the difference. Either way I think the Snac adapters really add something to the overall experience.

[adamchevy]

It could be also down to your BT receiver. I've heard that they are not all equal. Anyway, if the PSOne feels better then fair dos, just use that.

This is the one I use. I purchased it new. It’s on the officially supported Mister adapter list.

[Reaperman]

I think those latency numbers at misteraddons smell a little funny sometimes, but there are a few factors that could play in:

• The MiSTerAddons metal case (and similar metal cases) interfere with short bluetooth dongles, adding a TON of latency, but a short extension fixed me right up with my ps4 controller.
• as mentioned upgrading bluetooth rx, especially generationally, can help
• battery charge can add latency, and you'll notice the latency getting far more 'positional'
• line-of-sight isn't the problem it used to be--until it is.  My systems are generally behind me (front projection setup), and especially when combined with low-battery above it gets real noticable.

 

 

We also have to think of sub-frame latency a little differently than the big numbers we used to have, IMO. In a world below one frame, it's all about percentage that's next frame. I can't believe I live in a fantastic world with sub-frame latency, considering 10 years ago, many of us were rocking much more on the input side, and probably 3-5 frames (total lag).  What a time to be alive. 

 

So last night I'm gaming along on my 8bitdo wireless arcade stick via xinput 2.4g dongle (11.102ms), and I'm wondering if things are feeling sluggish in an a8 shmup. I pop in a neo geo controller via daemonbite adapter (0.758ms)--bam! super-crisp. That's an order of magnitude fewer next-frames, but they're only 'next-frames,' so still super-low.  Odds are either battery was getting low, or more likely my hands have a better time with the IL stick on the neo controller vs the sanwa in my 8bitdo. (I have a strong preference for IL controls)

 

Also when I say those MiSTeraddons numbers 'smell a little funny sometimes'--can the 8bitdo arcade controller's BT (7.363ms) really outperform it's 2.4g dongle (11.102ms), and wired USB (10.863)? I'm a little skeptical of things like that, but maybe true. I certainly haven't done any testing.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Reaperman

[youxia]

My approach to lag is not to worry too much about it, seeing as it's a subjective rabbit (hell)hole. So, once you got your basics covered, shaving slivers of miliseconds probably won't make that much difference, because a big chunk of this thing really is "in the mind".

[adamchevy]

I think those latency numbers at misteraddons smell a little funny sometimes, but there are a few factors that could play in:

• The MiSTerAddons metal case (and similar metal cases) interfere with short bluetooth dongles, adding a TON of latency, but a short extension fixed me right up with my ps4 controller.
• as mentioned upgrading bluetooth rx, especially generationally, can help
• battery charge can add latency, and you'll notice the latency getting far more 'positional'
• line-of-sight isn't the problem it used to be--until it is.  My systems are generally behind me (front projection setup), and especially when combined with low-battery above it gets real noticable.

   

We also have to think of sub-frame latency a little differently than the big numbers we used to have, IMO. In a world below one frame, it's all about percentage that's next frame. I can't believe I live in a fantastic world with sub-frame latency, considering 10 years ago, many of us were rocking much more on the input side, and probably 3-5 frames (total lag).  What a time to be alive. 

 

So last night I'm gaming along on my 8bitdo wireless arcade stick via xinput 2.4g dongle (11.102ms), and I'm wondering if things are feeling sluggish in an a8 shmup. I pop in a neo geo controller via daemonbite adapter (0.758ms)--bam! super-crisp. That's an order of magnitude fewer next-frames, but they're only 'next-frames,' so still super-low.  Odds are either battery was getting low, or more likely my hands have a better time with the IL stick on the neo controller vs the sanwa in my 8bitdo. (I have a strong preference for IL controls)

 

Also when I say those MiSTeraddons numbers 'smell a little funny sometimes'--can the 8bitdo arcade controller's BT (7.363ms) really outperform it's 2.4g dongle (11.102ms), and wired USB (10.863)? I'm a little skeptical of things like that, but maybe true. I certainly haven't done any testing.

 

I agree, what a time to be alive! I can’t believe we are now able to also have monitors that have 1ms or less of overall latency. The overall experience should be better than it’s ever been.

 

 

I’ve had my eye on that monitor for a few weeks. It’s blur buster approved and is supposedly the lowest latency monitor available.

 

The only reason I haven’t pulled the trigger is that I’m debating purchasing an Eizo S2133. But it has 6msGTG, and I’d like to eliminate as much latency as possible.

[Reaperman]

the EVO fighting tourney switched over to the semi-famous 'ASUS vh236h' monitors from CRTs ~10 years ago with its 1ms. (moving so many CRTs got impractical) Since then, I'd say that 1ms (or close) has become the norm especially for PC gamers that like to go fully double, or more, compared to a standard 60hz refresh.  I've taken to picking up asus monitors at the thrift shop because low latency can just be assumed with them Unlike most brands, a lot of them are true 1080p, instead of some weird PC-only resolution, and many even have built-in speakers which is a handy option for quick setup. (and of course audio-out for sound-nerds)

 

Unfortunately I'm in the front-projection world, and DLP is still king here, so I will have to live with a 1-2 frame sawtooth on my main monitor for another few years.  I'm not upgrading until I can go real-4k.  (not fake-DLP wobble-mirror 4k) I'm in no hurry, since I have nothing gaming-related that properly drives 4k video, outside of being able to integer scale 720p again.

 

I've posted this in a few spots, but here's me bench-testing my 2nd MiSTer on my lower-latency thrift-shop $20 monitor 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Reaperman

[adamchevy]

the EVO fighting tourney switched over to the semi-famous 'ASUS vh236h' monitors from CRTs ~10 years ago with its 1ms. (moving so many CRTs got impractical) Since then, I'd say that 1ms (or close) has become the norm especially for PC gamers that like to go fully double, or more, compared to a standard 60hz refresh.  I've taken to picking up asus monitors at the thrift shop because low latency can just be assumed with them--unlike most brands, a lot of them are true 1080p, instead of some weird PC-only resolution, and many even have built-in speakers which is a handy option for quick setup.
 
Unfortunately I'm in the front-projection world, and DLP is still king here, so I will have to live with a 1-2 frame sawtooth on my main monitor for another few years.  I'm not upgrading until I can go real-4k.  (not fake-DLP wobble-mirror 4k) I'm in no hurry, since I have nothing gaming-related that properly drives 4k video, outside of being able to integer scale 720p again.

The interesting thing about choosing a new monitor for the Mister is that your not so much focused on anything much above 60hz. Most newer gaming monitors that are rated at 1ms are doing that at their rated refresh rate of 144hz or higher. When you get down to 60hz they are all mostly sitting at 8ms or more. Which makes these older 4:3 monitors like the Eizo S2133 at 6ms look pretty good. Ofcourse the newer monitors have tech like black frame insertion that add to the whole experience.

My other home monitor is a 1080p 60” plasma that will remain my mainstay like your DLP tv for many years to come.

[Reaperman]

The big night is here! Spare MiSTer has been 'shucked,' MiSTercaded, and is currently update-all'ing. (I really shouldn't have done this over slooow wifi but I wanted to make sure it was configured correctly...)

 

 

(fullsize image) (this non-bbcode embed works today, but may not age well)

 

That MiSTercade kit doesn't seem heavy on specifics about where things go, so I guess you just put stuff together out of the 'sack of hardware bits' until you've come to terms with how level it's going to be at the end. 

two pair of mismatched arcade feet, one threaded, the other takes, I dunno, nails(?). The 'xl' sub-board with is...mostly level, looks connected enough for government purposes, etc. 🤣

 

I'm sure it'll work fine at the end of the day, and hide very well in my cabinet, but I'll have to get it a baseplate set or something later or it's going to bug me. I also have to get a jamma switcher, that's super going to bug me too. (that I turned an arcade machine into a fake)

 

One last vid on that temporary setup (playing with a couple recording options for the arcade setup), 

 

Donor cab:

Edited August 11, 2022 by Reaperman

[Steven Pendleton]

Feasible to swap the MiSTercade parts out for the regular IO board and whatever or best to get another MiSTer? I have a very empty New Astro City and while I'm planning on buying at least one Toaplan PCB for it soon, I do also want to put my MiSTer in there to save money on PCBs, but I do also want to use it on my PC monitor. Maybe it might be easier to get another MiSTer than to constantly swap parts to reconfigure the thing, but who knows. I suppose I could just leave the JAMMA stuff attached or something, though, as I guess I don't really need the IO board to use the HDMI out.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Steven Pendleton

[Reaperman]

Disassembling the misteraddons case and constructing the MiSTercade took more time than expected and was not really fun, so I recommend picking a direction for MiSTer and sticking with it.

 

On 8/12/2022 at 1:09 AM, Steven Pendleton said:

 

as I guess I don't really need the IO board to use the HDMI out.

So weirdly, the thing won't output on JAMMA and HDMI at the same time--at least not in the menus/startup screen, I'll test more later.  There is a menu-scaling line in the ini that has to be commented before it will display on HDMI (and conversely uncomment to get JAMMA happy). This is a real bummer because I wanted to record HDMI while playing the thing for split-screen video, but maybe (just maybe) in-game still works--that I still haven't tried.

 

Other MiSTercade 'Gotchas'

• the position and scale of these games varies wildly, generally I have to adjust the monitor basically per-game, seemingly even with consoles. These are controls I haven't really touched previously, because there was never a need.
• certain hdmi video settings (like 5x crop) also applies to JAMMA video 👎
• I had a heckuva time getting it to see my p1 controls at first. Fiddling with the CHAMMA switch seemed to help, but that makes ZERO sense since it just adds two buttons that I don't have, onto the jamma edge.
• p1/p2 controls get swapped wrong a LOT, and that rightside menu has a reset controller assignment setting that works to fix it. Anybody thinking of running one commercially, be warned of that. 
• the 'menu trigger' option most available to me is start+down, which also triggers autofire--maybe there's an INI setting to just kill turbo 😡. Not only does it turn on autofire about 1/3 of the time, it doesn't then bring the menu up when it activates...
• the main menu randomly drops controller inputs--every few seconds it just misses one or two in a row. (cores don't do it as much, if at all).
• I noticed that mashing buttons can sometimes drop held-directionals (tested in a capcom test menu). I'll swap my ancient 90's cherry switches for new ones and see if that keeps holding true, but I suspect it will.
• stereo cabs will need to not pass their stereo via JAMMA (big-red neo geos do this, but my little crap-cab is mono, so yay)
• also more arcade games are vertical than I remember, and I think something bad happened to that moon patrol arcade core, as it is now 'unhappy' --but that's true on HDMI too.

 

 

But Robotron with two sticks makes it all instantly worthwhile. Nice.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Reaperman

[Reaperman]

There are also some video quirks, having spent some more hours with it.

• I believe the video is a bit hotter than the MVS. There's some oversaturation in all colors, and white which is naturally most-effected, loses some detail.  So it's just a little hot for me, and I tend to keep my monitors a bit brighter than recommended. If this were a PVM, I'd be checking the resistors on the BNC-outs--it's about that hot.  
• Also something is pulling the geometry inwards on the lower half of the screen's left and right edges--which varies greatly by the game's aspect ratio, etc. Only with this board.
• Lastly there's a pronounced 'fake-scanline-like' skipped-horizontal-line effect that appears when screen is stretched up to near normal size. 

 

I think the second two issues are some kind of scaling artifact. Image was initially very small on my monitor compared to other boards, and I'm scaling up with control knobs about 30%. After I adjusted scaling, about 30% of my horizontal lines' phosphor dots aren't displaying an image. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, but it feels like I'm missing some image in there.

 

For the saturation, flyback adjustment could almost certainly tune that out, but I really don't feel like pulling the cab out, so maybe I can find a jamma adapter that provides RGB pots. Flyback adjustment isn't unheard of when switching boards, I just don't feel like squeezing back there, and the boards I've tended to run in there (MVS and PGM) are much closer to each other for levels.

 

The GBA below is a best-case scenario for it aspect-ratio wise.  It's widescreen enough that it doesn't get stretched enough show edge geometry issues, and it hides a lot of the skipped horizontal lines as it should be scaled to not take up the entire vertical screen. Also looking again, I seem to be running it a little too wide, which helps it even more. 😉

 

So wrong that it's right:

(fullsize version since BBcode embedding is weird currently)

Edited August 14, 2022 by Reaperman

[Steven Pendleton]

That sounds annoying, but fortunately I don't have a case for my MiSTer because I'm a cheap bastard who won't buy anything unless it's absolutely needed, which is why it took me about 2.5 years to get a USB hub.

 

Also fortunate is that the Astro City's monitor adjustment stuff is extremely easy to access, as all I have to do is turn a key to unlock and open the control panel and almost everything's right there. I REALLY don't want to rotate that monitor again, though... that thing weighs about half as much as I do and you have to take the damn Astro City halfway apart to do it. I'm basically not planning on playing horizontal games on it at all, though, so that's fine. It can stay that way.

[Reaperman]

Okay, not afraid to say when I'm 100% wrong, and earlier today I was just full of it. Oh I was seeing what I was seeing, and some cores don't like to zoom, at least with this monitor, BUT:

 

When I ACTUALLY compare apples to apples--the same game on a Neo Geo vs MiSTer's Neo Geo core, they're the same. None of the horizontal lines I was seeing, and my 'wild scaling' of the image becomes a minor reposition. I think part of my problem is that neo geo was the last system I tried instead of the first. So I'm playing a bunch of strange games, with strange resolutions, and it's also possible maybe some cores that aren't expecting to wind up on an arcade monitor.  But, I took some glamour shots while I was comparing them:

 

Mmm phosphor dots...

The below images are MiSTercade.

Second image is zoomed in on the center character's vertical line.

 

(fullsize, zoomed fullsize)

 

-----------------------------------------------

MiSTer (left), Real Neo Geo (Right) Check the links for fullsize because bbcode links are currently weird.

 

(These both blow up pretty huge - Fullsize MiSTer, Fullsize Neo Geo)

 

---------------------------------------------------------

Top is MiSTer, Bottom is Neo Geo (I had to triple check that, but if you note the position of the red background beam...)

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

And on the MiSTercade being brighter/saturated--probably not surprising.  It's 25 years newer than the tired old boards that the cab is tuned for.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Reaperman

[youxia]

34 minutes ago, Reaperman said:

I'm playing a bunch of strange games, with strange resolutions, and it's also possible maybe some cores that aren't expecting to wind up on an arcade monitor.

In most cases MiSTer should display stuff in a 1:1 fashion on a CRT compared to OG hardware. There should be no scaling artifacts whatsoever, if you're seeing any make sure your config is OK. NeoGeo has a bit of a width problem, but scaling is still 1:1.

 

Connecting to an arcade monitor can be indeed problematic, but that mostly would affect colours/brightness (like what you describe), not scaling.

[Reaperman]

So for HDMI/JAMMA this MiSTercade MiSTer.ini line is the one that needs commented for menus to work via HDMI. I don't believe this section is in a standard MiSTer.ini

However, it does still output via HDMI--just won't sync while the menu is up as when it starts.  Once in a game, my capture device locked right on and recorded below. There is no audio. Probably because of the switch that gets flipped on the DE-10 when MiSTercading it. (might not be a total deal-breaker, as I can possibly 3.5mm into that capture device) Also note that the 1080p '5x crop' actually cuts horizontal lines off the top/bottom of JAMMA too, so I'm not running with that.  Before I realized what that crop did, adjusting the lost vertical may well have been part of my earlier problems.

 

 

Appropriate manual reference:

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Reaperman

[Steven Pendleton]

How exactly do credits work on this thing? I can map the credit input to the actual coin mechanism, right? No, I'm not actually going to charge myself 100 yen for each credit, but I do want to just be able to leave my coin panel thingy open and just depress the wire at the bottom to insert coins, like this. Why do it like this? Because most Toaplan games do not seem to have a free play setting, so I will actually have to give them money, or hit the wire to insert some fake, imaginary money to play them anyway once I actually get some PCBs.

 

 

Of course, I'm absolutely planning on making my friends actually put money in this thing when they come by before I open the coin box door and give them their money back just to mess with them. I do need to do some maintenance on the coin mechanism, though, as the 100 yen coins that I've put in this thing just to test it don't actually depress the wire fully and fall into the coin box as they should.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Steven Pendleton

[Reaperman]

17 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

How exactly do credits work on this thing? I can map the credit input to the actual coin mechanism, right? 

 

Yes, actual jamma coin-in is an option.

Or if you go for the remote board (I didn't) there's a coin switch there

 

Or there are physical switches on the miSTercade and also the XL addon board makes each player's start into start+sel (credit+start). It's kind of a pseudo freeplay mode, and it's what I use. Start+sel also happens to be super handy for calling up the neo geo unibios menu to reboot into region change mode (because everything defaults to europe/AES until changed).

 

Then there are of course all the standard mister options, keyboard, mapped button, internal freeplay dispswitch access, etc.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Reaperman

[Steven Pendleton]

31 minutes ago, Reaperman said:

Yes, actual jamma coin-in is an option.

Or if you go for the remote board (I didn't) there's a coin switch there

 

Or there are physical switches on the miSTercade and also the XL addon board makes each player's start into start+sel (credit+start). It's kind of a pseudo freeplay mode, and it's what I use. Start+sel also happens to be super handy for calling up the neo geo unibios menu to reboot into region change mode (because everything defaults to europe/AES until changed).

 

Then there are of course all the standard mister options, keyboard, mapped button, internal freeplay dispswitch access, etc.

Okay, good. I'll probably just use the coin mechanism, then. I'll also probably just use the down+start combination as my menu command.

 

After thinking about it some more, I might actually rotate the monitor so I can try playing Mega Drive games on it. Sonic, Slap Fight MD, Thunder Force, Bare Knuckle, Mega Drive Zero Wing, and pretty much everything else I want on an actual arcade cabinet without having to bother with JAMMA converters for my real Mega Drive would be really awesome and relatively convenient. I guess it's a good thing that every MD game is playable with only 3 buttons, so I won't even have to go buy more buttons.

 

I don't suppose you can rotate the monitor on the MVS cabinet, right? You're kind of screwed with that thing. Get an Egret II if you can find one and have the cash so you can have something with a monitor rotation mechanism so you don't have to endanger your life rotating the monitor like you would with the Astro City. Supposedly the monitor discharges itself whenever you turn the Astro City off, but I don't trust it. Nothing like risking death by electrocution to spin a heavy thing to play some ancient-ass games that are older than I am.

[Reaperman]

So I've spent even more time with MiSTercade, gotten audio into my direct recordings (via analog 3.5mm), and I'm really enjoying my time.  Highly recommended. A+, and I may even get motivated to squeeze back behind for a flyback/brightness adjustment.

 

While of course scaling is bang-on for neo geo, scaling does vary between cores. This tends to manifest as stretched farther off the top than expected, or black bars on the sides.  But I've started just 'dealing with it' instead of constantly messing with monitor control knobs until I go crazy .  I've notice that in arcade world, mario and moon patrol are way too narrow, a800 has bars all around, tg-16 is a little narrow--it's all fine. If I'm feeling picky about aspect etc, I'll just play 'real MiSTer' in my comfy easy chair in front of my modern(ish) display and not worry about it.

 

I'm surprised at how much I LOVE consoles on arcade. They take some of those vertical games and make them horizontal, and also are tuned for digital controls so since I don't have analog steering, etc. I've really been enjoying: Virtua Racing (32x), Ridge Racer Revolution (PSX), Super C (Nes), Beef Drop (7800) (or any number of other recent 7800 arcade ports)--and I wouldn't really be able to fully enjoy the real arcade versions of those games on my cab otherwise. 

 

Since consoles play pretty great, it's weird SCART RGB to JAMMA isn't a more common way of running real consoles in general.

 

On 8/15/2022 at 12:05 AM, Steven Pendleton said:

I don't suppose you can rotate the monitor on the MVS cabinet, right? You're kind of screwed with that thing. Get an Egret II if you can find one and have the cash so you can have something with a monitor rotation mechanism so you don't have to endanger your life rotating the monitor like you would with the Astro City. 

Certainly no refined mech for it, but I could probably gorilla-it vertical, since it's not really an mvs-specific cab, (but I know I never will.) I may try vertical via a smaller CRT and see if it grows on me. 

 

Candy cabs will probably never be for me, since I'm all about 'tall, mdf and western controls.'   I tend to be one of those weirdos who does 'excessive celebration' while playing arcade games, and standing up really opens up the options for that 😂

Edited August 18, 2022 by Reaperman